Ukrainian officials have asked NATO countries to send troops to Ukraine to help train 150,000 new recruits, The New York Times reported on Thursday.
The report said NATO countries are “inching closer” to sending trainers, which would mark a significant escalation and risk direct war with Russia. A small number of NATO special operations forces have been inside Ukraine — 97 as of March 2023 — but an open deployment to train a large number of Ukrainian troops would take things to another level.
The US and NATO had been training Ukrainian troops inside Ukraine before Russia’s February 2022 invasion. Since then, the training has been held in Germany and other parts of Europe, but Kyiv wants to shift it back inside Ukraine so the Ukrainian recruits can be quickly deployed to the frontlines. So far, the US has not agreed to the request, but it appears Washington is considering it.
The Times cited a US official who said one possibility could be to train Ukrainian troops in Lviv, a western Ukrainian city that’s near the Polish border. Russia has bombed Lviv throughout the war, including strikes a few weeks ago that targeted energy infrastructure.
In comments on Thursday, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Charles Q. Brown said a NATO training deployment was an inevitability but appeared to rule it out for now. “We’ll get there eventually, over time,” he told reporters while on his way to Brussels. He said that if they were sent now, it would put “a bunch of NATO trainers at risk” and that Ukraine would have to choose whether to use air defenses to protect them or infrastructure near the frontlines.
Other countries have expressed interest in sending troops to Ukraine despite the risk of sparking a direct war with Russia, which could quickly turn nuclear. French President Emmanuel Macron has repeatedly stated that sending troops wouldn’t be ruled out, and Lithuania has said it’s prepared to send trainers.
An Estonian official said the Baltic nation is “seriously” discussing the idea of sending troops to western Ukraine to fill duties that free up Ukrainian soldiers so they can be deployed to the front.
Can Ukraine also ask NATO to show them, how they stack bodies of the fallen after they take shrapnel?
The distance from Lvov to the battlefields is almost the same as the distance from Poland to the battlefields. The difference is that in Poland they are safer. So it is not about training but about “inching closer”. On territory of Ukraine they need some anti-air defense, so they will have a pretext for sending more anti-air systems to Ukraine which, of course, can be used for protection of Kiev or something else. As there is a shortage of such systems in NATO, they have to invest more money into MIC. It is all about money.
They can send as much equipment to Ukraine as they want. Two countries doing business. China looks like they are backing Russia so hopes of a Russian collapse for lack of equipment are maybe not realistic. The only way this ends if one side runs out of men.
For sending something, they need first to produce something. It costs money. One story when they are talking in Congress about the need to protect “Ukrainian democracy”, and other story when they are talking about the need to protect their own military specialists.
That shit about China is just made-up nonsense.
Money-Power (exploitation of markets & resources) is the inexorable dialectic of bourgeois history. Thence, their methodical mission-creep. WW3 … “We’ll get there eventually….”
Bourgeois is a wrong word. Capitalist would be more correct. Bourgeois is compatible with the democracy. Political capitalism (unrestricted capitalism), where the big political issues are decided by oligarchs, is incompatible with the democracy because the oligarchs are not elected. For example, Chinese political model is more democratic than American oligarchy because Chinese political elite is elected within the party, and the party itself is independent from capitalist influence. As long as Chinese communist party can protect itself from corruption, China is okay. Iran and Vatican are also more democratic than US oligarchy for the same reason – their political elites are elected. The problem with Vatican, it is too corrupt, and because of corruption, Christian values are abandoned.
Capitalism is an economic system characterized by the private ownership of the means of production. That’s all. Capitalism is not evil, it’s not exploitative. Political corruption is the problem which is causing all kinds of evil and exploitation. We shouldn’t confuse capitalism with political corruption. Capitalism can’t stop political corruption. Neither can any other economic arrangement.
No, that’s not all. The main point is who does control the central government. China, for example, is okay with the private ownership of the means of production. Number of Chinese $ billionaires is greater than that of US. However the central Chinese government is under full control of Chinese communist party elite while in US the central government is under control of oligarchs. The problem with US, it has not even any efficient socialist or religious organized opposition; everything one way or other is controlled by capitalists.
My point is that capitalism, or the private ownership of the means of production, is not what is causing the problem. Political corruption is causing the problem. And political corruption can occur under any economic arrangement. Capitalism does not cause political corruption.
Private ownership of the means of production is not a problem as long as there is an efficient political system based upon certain moral values which is capable of keeping big business out from big politics.
That’s what I’m talking about. And that political system is one in which the only role of government is to outlaw and prosecute force and fraud.
Good that we agree here. But it is not the corruption problem. We can talk about corruption in China, Iran or Russia. In US the lobbying is legal. Anglo-Saxon political system was created this way. In UK there was some strong enough socialist opposition. In US there is nothing, Just naked unrestricted capitalism.
I’m not interested in talking about corruption in Russia, China or Iran. I’m not a citizen of any of those countries. That’s for the Russians, the Chinese and the Iranians to deal with. The problem with the lobbying is when politicians succumb to it and violate their duty to defend the Constitution. That’s corruption.
To learn something, we have to consider different political systems. Then, eventually, we can understand why one or other political system is failing.
US political system inherited a lot from British empire where private capitalist companies were running the foreign policy.
The US political system is failing because of corruption and because we have abandoned our founding principles, which enshrined individual liberty as the highest goal. Not because of capitalism. Have a good day.
One of the worst kinds of corruption is the individual liberty which allows children to change their sex.
Allowing children to change their sex is not an exercise of individual liberty. A child does not possess the competence to make that kind of decision. A parent or guardian that allowed their child to make that kind of decision is guilty of negligence, at best. Any doctor that performed a change of sex operation on a child is guilty of malpractice.
As we can observe, often those parents who are trying to protect their children against “sex education” are recognized guilty. Transgender children is the logical consequence of “sex education”. Those who are promoting lgbt agenda among children, use individual liberty as argument; they themselves are the product of individual liberty.
Nothing wrong with individual liberty when it is restricted by Christian teaching. When such restriction doesn’t work, every kind of crimes is flourishing.
“Nothing wrong with individual liberty when it is restricted by my personal preferences (with the label ‘Christian teaching’ written on them in crayon).”
Fixed, no charge.
I disagree, Tom. There is real social decadence in America that is being justified by arguments along the lines of, “It’s my right as a free individual.” The problem with that argument is that it views society as a mass of individuals, nothing more.
Organized religions codify the norms of social behavior and map out the boundaries of what is socially acceptable. There are plenty of problems with organized religion, but it does have an important social function, and most of the major religions share common moral norms.
Nothing wrong with being an atheist. But most of the adults here at AntiWar, whether religious or atheist, grew up in a culture strongly influenced by the morality of religions.
Wokeism, as some have noted (e.g., John McWhorter), has all the hallmarks of a religion, showing that you can kill a religion in a large society, but another one will soon spring up. Because we want and need that moral structure in a large and rather anonymous society . And because we are fundamentally social animals, not isolated individuals.
“Nothing wrong with being an atheist.”
Is that supposed to imply that I am one? Think again.
I don’t see anything we necessarily disagree on. “Wokeism” does indeed have all the hallmarks of a religion, as does “MAGA.”
I am well aware that people socialize. That does not magically create a situation in which the supposed desires of a “society” (which, as an aggregate, can’t even HAVE desires) trump the rights of individuals or of smaller aggregates such as families.
I did not mean to imply anything about your beliefs. It is only that I have noticed a tendency for some atheists to belittle religious belief instead of respecting belief as a personal decision.
And yes, we agree on most of this stuff.
Once you abandon Christian values, the moral degradation is unavoidable. It looks, it is quite a long time as you got on this road.
On the basis of the available evidence, I doubt you’d recognize “Christian values” if they walked up behind you and whacked you across the ass with a bass fiddle.
Parents/guardians making medical decisions for their children with the advice of doctors and without consulting you or asking your permission first is how it’s always been done in most of the world.
Sorry, Thomas. I’m not woke like you.
You seem to have that backward.
I prefer parents and doctors making their own informed judgments on the treatment of children.
You want the state to put on a lab coat and a Mother of the Year t-shirt and play doctor/parent for everyone, just like every other melty safe-space snowflake who can’t stand the idea of “problematic” decisions by others.
No, Thomas. I believe that there are some things that are ok for adults, but should be off limits for children, for their own health and safety. Doctors and parents can make mistakes in their judgment.
Yes, doctors and parents can make mistakens in their judgment.
So can politicians.
And so can you.
Nobody is going to make the right decision every time.
But everyone should be as free as possible to make their own decisions for their children instead of begging for your permission or the legislature’s.
I never said that someone should have to beg for my permission. You’re such an asshole.
Well, either they get to do things the way they choose to, or they only get to do things the way you want them to do things. Which is it?
I think that you should have to beg for my permission if you want to help your children self mutilate.
“I think”
I have yet to see much evidence for that claim.
Get on your knees and beg, Thomas. And bow your head while you’re doing it.
I doubt you’re intentionally advocating, for children, pharmacological and surgical treatments which permanently preclude them from ever experiencing an adult sexual or procreative life.
If “Parents/guardians making medical decisions for their children with the advice of doctors” are infallible how did we get lobotomies?
I assume you don’t know we are at the very beginning of a medical malpractice scandal involving the treatment of transgenderism over the past 20 years. But you know, ignorance or not, potential surgical mutilation of children warrants more than a lazy Knee-Jeck Idelogical Response formed of a lot of never-tested assumptions and willful incurious ignorance.
https://genspect.org/the-wpath-files-revealed/
The Vatican and China are hothouse elections, the demos restricted to the College of Cardinals and central committee of the CP, both indeed non profit corporations, but both antithetic to our contemporary Enlightenment notion, which is bourgeois liberal democracy. Formally, this latter is defined as “one man one vote”, but, de facto, has always been “rule by the burghers”, which in today’s world means the CEO’s of the megacorporations. These are the human beings, “the deciders” (to quote Dubya), who rule and their logos is entirely Capitalist. So, finally, I don’t think we disaggree much.
1. The democracy is not an ultimate goal. The ultimate goal is to create an efficient government working in the interests of the people.
2. Even democratically elected authorities can bring a nation to a disaster unless their ultimate goal is the well-being and prosperity of all humankind, not just their own nation.
3. One can’t create something good based upon lies and cheating.
Amen to all that. That populism can be a curse we need only look at Israel.
OH no, I know how this movie ends. I think the problem is if they send their troops to say Poland, they might get fewer troops back,, but the problem with sending trainers to Ukraine is they might get killed which would cause pressure for escalation. It certainly wouldn’t be a valid use of NATO mutual defense clause, as if you are dumb enough to send troops to a 3rd country conflict zone and they get killed, that isn’t NATOs problem
These fools won’t stop until we are all caught in a war.
Let’s hope they will stop. So far, what does concern NATO problem, they are gambling mostly with European lives.
Yes, because the future of the US Empire hinges on the outcome in Ukraine. It is basically win-or-go-broke, because if Russia prevails then the US will have lost its global military and economic dominance.
The US drew Russia into this proxy war, expecting that the Russian military was weak and incompetent and that the Russian economy would collapse under sanctions. Neither of those assumptions held true, but the US kept driving forward, ignoring the off-ramps, and is now driving circles in a dead-end cul-de-sac. It can only imagine continuing the proxy war in hopes of draining Russia’s economic strength. This is the attritional warfare plan from the US side.
The neocons in the State Dept. have no vision for a negotiated peace. They are betting the farm on economic warfare because that worked against the USSR. And it has worked against many other countries, so far as making life harsh (Cuba, Venezuela, Iran, North Korea, etc.) But it only works if enough other countries agree to cooperate with sanctions against Russia, and they only cooperate due to their own fear of US military action, political aggression (e.g., Color Revolutions), and economic sanctions. In other words, they are bullied into helping the US.
Russia is now facing down the bully. That challenges everything the US Empire depends on. So the stakes are very high.
Send troops for ‘training’. Yeah, right.
Those Ukrainian militaries who survived two years in the battlefields, can teach NATO troops how to fight.
The few Ukrainian soldiers who survived should then teach the new recruits how to fight, if only because they actually CAN speak Ukrainian. No need for NATO troops. If Ukrainians want to fight until the last Ukrainian, so their country becomes 100% Ukrainian, then Ukrainian battlefields should use 100% Ukrainian cannon fodder.
Of course it is possible to use Ukrainian experienced soldiers for the new recruits training. The problem is: who will keep the frontline from collapsing? Foreign mercenaries are not so numerous because their job is too dangerous. Besides, it looks, Ukrainians are cheaper.
They don’t have 150,000 men to train. They want us to round those up, and send them too, from the unwilling refugees we had welcomed earlier. Betrayal of them, to serve the cocaine fueled corrupt leaders of Ukraine, and of course to serve our own neocon fantasies.
“Ukrainian officials have asked NATO countries to send troops to Ukraine to help train 150,000 new recruits….”.
Not “recruits”. Kidnapped and enslaved Ukrainians. Those that attempt to escape risk being shot by border guards or drown trying to swim rivers.
Hence why they want them “training” in Ukraine; where the camps can be guarded and the neo Nazis can prevent the unwilling from “wandering off” and disappearing into a foreign country. This is solely about CONTROL.
Blinker just told Zelensky not to flee for his life. The little rat will follow orders until his own countrymen put him down.
This reminds me of Vietnamese prime minister Ngô Đình Diệm and his young brother Ngô Đình Nhu both brothers assassinated in 1963 in a coup in Vietnam!
The little rat has better chance to survive than those two Vietnamese. Maybe the greatest danger to his life is overdose.
What nonsense. Ukraine doesn’t want the training to be inside Ukraine “so the Ukrainian recruits can be quickly deployed to the frontlines”; only a liar would say that and only an imbecile would believe that. And only a pathetic shill of a journalist would repeat that claim unchallenged.
They want it for two more reasons, one practical, and one cynical. The practical reason, they want the forcibly-conscripted to be training in Ukraine where they can be controlled, not in some foreign country where they might wander off and either vanish or claim asylum; and the cynical reason, they want an incident where a bunch of NATO trainers are killed, in hopes this will somehow bring NATO into the war.
The US and NATO had been training Ukrainian troops inside Ukraine before Russia’s February 2022 invasion.
Meaning they really aren’t very good at it.
Train to Fail… Hollywood Way….! Repeatedly Underestimate the Russian capabilities…!
Clever lady. Unfortunately, most American politicians are far below this level of understanding.
Jus tell the Russians that these trainers aren’t deployed there to fight, and everything will be alright! Ha ha
Just look at the great job our training did in Vietnam and Afghanistan. As soon as the money ran out, and the so-called trainers left, the trainees stopped fighting.
““We’ll get there eventually, over time,”
Who is this moron? If they don’t come now, they won’t ever come because there won’t be any Ukrainian troops left to train. And if they come now, they’ll die, to use Scott Ritter’s usual terms.
And this moron is Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Which is why Andrei Martyanov has now written off the entire US military as utterly incompetent. The “mighty” US military is now completely useless anywhere in the world (except for nukes and US Navy submarines, Andrei acknowledges) and killing civilians.
Maybe NATO can do some kind of package deal, ya know and save us all some hard earned tax dollars. Sort a WWIII special?….!
Poor effort at humor.
You’re always appreciated, Donna.
They once sent Ukrainian troops aboard for training. Now they know most will run off and demand asylum, so they need the trainers to come to Ukraine.
Just as I thought Zelenski would be grateful for this sacrifice Americans are making in passing this mammoth bill — I am wrong. The man has no shame. Or better, men who control this marionette have no shame, Now, they want our children,
I am so sick of these arrogant, swollen heads who are dreaming world domination. We cannot take care of our veterans with mental health problems, homeless! Our infrastructure is breaking down — instead of getting modernized for 21centiry. No high spead rail, no modernized highways, no shipbuilding, dodgy bridges and ports, sea walls not maintained in a century, flood prevention, etc etc, Florida is a perfect example of a denial. Sea walls, canals not maintained, soil errosion the consequence. Removal of trees that held back the errosion is rampant. Let’s blame it on iguanas!
I blame it on the concept called Zelenski.
JCS = “Yes Sir!”
By the time they reach that pinnacle, they’re either competent to render accurate judgments or they’re not. Either way they’re YESSIR. On the way to that pinnacle they’re CAN DO!
If NATO sends troops, maybe Russia will invite China to send troops.