The New York Times reported Tuesday that US officials are claiming the Nord Stream bombings were carried out by a “pro-Ukrainian group” and dismissed reporting from investigative journalist Seymour Hersh that said President Biden ordered the sabotage.
The US officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity to the Times said they based their assessment on new intelligence but offered very little detail about their claims. The report said the officials “declined to disclose the nature of the intelligence, how it was obtained or any details of the strength of the evidence it contains. They have said that there are no firm conclusions about it.”
The officials said there was no evidence tying Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky or any of his top advisors to the pipeline bombings. They also said they didn’t know much about the unnamed group, suggesting only that they were opponents of Russian President Vladimir Putin and likely Ukrainian or Russian nationals.
The Times briefly mentioned Hersh’s report only to say that US officials deny there was a US role. The Times report reads: “US officials say Mr. Biden and his top aides did not authorize a mission to destroy the Nord Stream pipelines, and they say there was no US involvement.”
Hersh’s report said that US Navy divers planted explosives on the Nord Stream pipelines in June 2022 under cover of NATO exercises in the Baltic Sea. It said the operation was carried out with the cooperation of Norway, and a Norwegian spy plane detonated the explosives by dropping a sonar buoy in late September 2022.
US officials told the Times that it appeared the explosives were probably planted on the pipelines by “experienced divers” but claimed they did “not appear to be working for military or intelligence services,” although they added that it was possible the “perpetrators received specialized government training in the past.”
The Times said that some of the US officials acknowledged that Ukraine and its allies had the most logical motive for bombing the pipelines. The US has long opposed the construction of Nord Stream 2, and President Biden threatened to “bring an end” to the pipeline if Russia invaded Ukraine.
After the sabotage, US officials celebrated the attacks, including Secretary of State Antony Blinken, who called it a “tremendous opportunity” to wean Europe off Russian gas.
The vague allegations made by US officials to the Times could be an effort to divert suspicion from the US to Ukraine. If confirmed that the US was behind the attack, it would clearly be considered an act of war against Russia.
The German newspaper Die Zeit also published a report on the pipeline sabotage on Tuesday that claimed German investigators believe it was carried out by six people using a yacht rented in Poland that was owned by two Ukrainians.
The two reports came after Biden hosted German Chancellor Olaf Scholz in Washington, a visit that did not include the customary joint press briefing following their meeting. The last time Scholz was in Washington was on February 7, 2022, and it was then during a joint press briefing that Biden threatened to “bring an end” to the pipeline.
111 thoughts on “NYT: ‘Pro-Ukrainian Group’ Likely Carried Out Nord Stream Sabotage”
Yeah. It was a pro-Ukrainian group of Navy Seals.
You got that one right.
I tried to post a comment on this article all day long but they won’t allow me to post anything. Even though all they’re supposed to “monitor for civility.” Below is all I wrote hahaha…
“The US government definitely counts as a pro-Ukrainian group.”
You could not have said it better. *****
You don’t have to be an underwater/diver demolitionist to place a charge in that area.
Those are shallow waters with busy traffic and anyone with the small commercial boat and a reel system equipped with camera can easily place the explosives with a timer.
Not saying that’s what happens but the idea of diver in Seal Delivery Vehicles isn’t the only way to get the job done.
Edit: If US Navy Seals were involved, marked my words, we will find out eventually. Those MOFOs cannot keep f king secrets. There will be a book about it with all the names.
I’m just guessing here but I don’t think he blamed the Navy Seals because they have some special equipment and/or skill.
I know, I was just expanding on the discussion.
I originally thought that the sabotage was a high tech black ops operation that only a state actor could pull off. But Don Julio and Tom Knapp convinced me that it could have been a partisan action. The US is still the prime suspect followed by Ukraine, Poland and Russia. Still, the sabotage is the type of black op that the Seals are trained for and the image in my post is funny. It could have been Navy Seals, but I really don’t know whodunit.
Maybe it was the Democratic Republic of the Congo? One thing for sure, it wasn’t Russia.
No YOU won’t because if it was found out, YOU would claim it was Russian disinformation.
Yes, another Rob O’Neill will appear to take credit.
Don, you are right. It could have been a partisan action. I thought it was a deep sea high tech operation that would need a state actor to pull it off. The US and Ukrainian governments are still suspects.In the fog of war we may never know the truth. Remember the Maine!
Wasn’t Spain. The media hyped that up too.
“i didn’t do it even though i told everybody that i would”
…… uncle sam
Who ya gonna believe, Hersh or some anonymous US officials?
I will take US official over an old nut job who is trying to relive his youth with creative fiction.
Oh Kenny…I have a bridge to sell. Interested?
This is atypical for you. And good on you. You have made a successful root cause analysis of why you are always wrong.
Anonymous US official… Just like Hersh’s source.
If it turns out that Mr. Seymour Hersh accounts are wrong and simply an excise in creative writing, is he guilty of treason or slander?
Guilty of telling the truth, also defined today as treason and slander as whistle blowers like Assange and Snowden know too well. It’s that ‘Ministry of Truth’ which determines what’s right and wrong, isn’t it?
Kenneth, Kenneth . . .
Treason is the only crime defined in the Constitution (and it’s too bad that so many Americans who don’t know basics like this are permitted to vote). You’ll find that definition in Article III, Section 3, Clause 1 and when you do you’ll find that it has nothing at all to do with the subject under discussion.
Next, you should investigate the difference between slander and libel. When you have that straight, do a bit of Googling to clarify that (1) public figures, including government officials, have to meet a stringent standard (“actual malice” — see New York Times v. Sullivan) to prevail in defamation cases and (2) expressions of opinion and statements based on sincerely-held belief are protected by the First Amendment.
So: “No, of course not.”
And, contra Lily, neither Assange nor Snowden has been charged with treason.
Especially Assange. He is not a U.S. citizen.
One could perhaps be forgiven for thinking that when former heads of the CIA threatened Snowden with just that. Said Woolsey: “He should be prosecuted for treason. If convicted by a jury of his peers, he should be hanged by his neck until he is dead.” Dianne Feinstein agreed: “He violated the oath, he violated the law. It’s treason.” Many, many of their lessers pitched in, some indulging themselves in elaborate revenge fantasies while spewing the hate that fills their otherwise empty skulls.
Yeah, lots of people like to throw the “treason” word around.
But treason is specifically defined in the US Constitution.
Hint: There have been precisely two US prosecutions for treason since World War Two that weren’t for actions taken DURING World War two.
One (the Rosenbergs) was dropped before trial.
The other (some alleged al Qaeda guy) never made it to court, as he was killed in the Middle East first.
Treason is a crime of war. And legally, a state of war exists in the United States under one and only one condition: Congress having so declared. At the moment, treason is literally legally impossible.
Hersh was just proving that Bidden, Blinken and Clinton (?) were correct when they spilled the beans on who did it.
If that were the case, Dick Cheney would still be in prison.
I get google news on my phone, and it’s soooo biased in favor of Dems. and the ongoing wars without end. Google is now just an organ of the “Ministry of Truth” in Wash. If one can’t see the whoppers coming out of the official Wash. line, it’s really too bad.
Yes Google even publish propaganda from Ukrainian news organizations as “truth”.
The “Fact Check” section often includes “findings” on international relations and conflict issues by Polygraph.info — which is a “service” of Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty.
“NYT: ‘Pro-Ukrainian Group’ Likely Carried Out Nord Stream Sabotage The paper dismissed Seymour Hersh’s report that said President Biden ordered the bombing of the pipelines”
Looks like Joey Biden and the American intel state are working overtime to deflect blame for the actions in destroying the Nord Stream pipelines in an act of Eco-terrorism.
It is no longer Russia, Russia, Russia or even Russia-gate that destroyed their own pipeline.
Of course, the American public is so gullible that they will buy this fictional narrative.
The NYT – all the Bullshit that fits.
In fact, without his entourage – just flying in, speaking to Biden for one hour, then back again.
No questions from journalists because they would ask who he thinks attacked Nord Stream, and he is too much of a greedy socialist to jeopardize his well-paid position by telling the truth.
As for who did it, it could only be the U.S. and Britain, but Britain would never attack Europe’s economy like that without asking Biden first. So it was Biden who attacked us all. With his sanctions and his bomb attack he has bankrupted businesses and impoverished families all over Europe. There is only one suitable punishment.
There was a story somewhere that alleged that planning for the mission began about the same time Boris showed up in Ukraine to stop the negotiations between Ukraine and Russia.
Olaf Schitz flew into D.C. for his bag of payola.
The accusation by Sy Hersh was not on the front ,back nor somewhere in the middle of the well known media including the NYT.
But the US’s claim that the pro -Ukraine did the bombing is on the front page .
It seems anything US about US claimed by establishment of US will featured by the media . Its not the importance ,not the event ,not the truth ,not the issue of security or even the possibility of WW3 from sabotage –none of them -can be expected to make it to the media .
That is why consider the NYT to be junk.
Parakeet cage crap collector.
Funny how less than 6 months ago the mainstream media was saying “Russia did it!” https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/sabotaged-pipelines-and-a-mystery-who-did-it-was-it-russia/
Took them quite a while to cook up this bullshit.
Oh yeah, we really believe that BS. NYTimes is so full of it. Everyday it spouts more Wash. propaganda. Too bad the MIC and Big Media are linked in the stock markets. It goes back to ‘you provide the pictures, we’ll provide the war’ and keep any war going until it’s lost.
The unnamed officials who are propagating nonsense like this aren’t even bothering to try to make the claims credible. The chances that a non-state actor could have pulled off this sabotage are vanishingly-tiny and the chances that it could have been pulled off without detection by the nation states laser-focused on those Baltic waters are nonexistent.
But that doesn’t matter — at least not yet. It’s easy to make people believe nonsense they want to believe.
I’m not exactly hooked into the former special operator community or anything, but I probably personally know at least 50 people of whom any randomly selected four could have “pulled this off” — Including acquiring the explosives. I’m not one of them, because I’m not a trained diver or ocean-going boater (my waterborne specops experience was small, mostly riverine craft, for insertion as recon/infantry). The most I’d have been good for would have been prepping the demo (after a refresher — it’s been a loooong time).
Diving, boat-handling, and demo are skills, but they’re not especially rare skills. If the global population of people who can do that stuff and are no longer state actors was a country, it would probably make the top 75.
Which says nothing in light of the manner this amazing story with all this detail suddenly appeared after Hersh dumped this pile on JB and his fellow hoodlums. Add in the mouthpiece – none other than the NYT – and you have a pile of bullshit a mile high.
Since you have such experience, perhaps you could give an estimate of how much explosives, type and design of the packages needed to blow those pipes?
Developing an estimate for such an operation would take me a few hours, mostly for research on the pipes themselves and on the effect of water pressure at that depth vis a vis amount of explosive required.
If you’re interested in buying my time, I guess we can talk. But you could do the same research yourself in probably about the same amount of time.
Handling and setting up explosives is just not especially complicated, and lots of people are well-trained to do it. Reducing it to the US specifically, I’d be surprised if the number was less than a million, most of whom are not currently, and some of whom have never been, members of the armed forces.
The dive plan and approach/departure by boat would be the far more difficult aspects which fewer people are very qualified to deal with.
You made a claim. You can back it up…… or not. As you should be aware, this has already been done by people who actually have the experience and knowledge. You don ‘t. So, you’re just blowing smoke…. again.
I have some experience.
I have some knowledge.
I didn’t so much make a claim myself as point out just how goddamn dumb the claim that only a nation-state could have conducted the attack is.
Sure, there are divers and demolition guys who are competent to fill those roles and there are probably quite a few of them running around. But the overall operation would require planning, resource acquisition, logistics, cover, etc. beyond the capability of a small group of operators. And remember what the surveillance environment is at that location.
If the people who sabotaged the pipeline weren’t officially state operatives, they certainly would have needed cooperation from regional military and security services, at least to the extent of looking the other way, which would mean that it really was a nation state operation.
It’s pure unadulterated crap that never would have been cooked up were it not for Sy Hersh.
The most likely explanation has always been that it was a US regime operation, or an operation conducted by another regime in the area at the behest of the US regime.
Second most likely was that it was a regime operation, but not sanctioned by the US regime — the top suspects there being Ukraine and Poland.
Third most likely was that it was a regime operation, and the regime was the Russian regime creating a force majeure get-out-of-contract-obligations-free card.
Fourth most likely is non-state operators.
“If the people who sabotaged the pipeline weren’t officially state operatives, they certainly would have needed cooperation from regional military and security services, at least to the extent of looking the other way, which would mean that it really was a nation state operation.”
Absolutely not true. And I won’t even go into why.
“And remember what the surveillance environment is at that location.”
Exactly, there is no 100% surveillance, especially in the ocean if you are not expecting an attack. Hence my comment.
There are all kinds of way to cheat surveillance and there are low cost/low signature underwater drones, for example.
“especially in the ocean if you are not expecting an attack”
I’d guess plenty of people were.
I was not but you probably were.
It didn’t surprise me.
We’ve been hearing pretty much from the start that it was “state operators” all intelligence agencies, all the Russia pointing “experts”, also the only thing the actual investigators thus far saw fit to conclude, all the resolutions-concocting politicians and everybody else whichever way their ideological or political winds may blow.
Until “a US official” reveals in the “New York Times” that the US is innocent. Then all of the sudden everything is possible. Who knows, a school of pro-Ukrainian cod may have done it.
If we ever have a pipeline sabotaged, you can bet our intelligence community will, without evidence, say it was Russia or China that did it./
We will at the very least not be informed by some NY Times notary that it was a mysterious bunch of pro-China activists, an inflatable canoe and a basket of enhanced firecrackers.
Funny, I asked a former diver for an oil company that same question and got the exact opposite answer. He said given lots of time and resources, “maybe” at best it could be done. When I asked if it could be done on the sly without notice in busy waters? “Not a chance”.
I thought you once said you were an Artilleryman. Perhaps I misread.
My primary MOS was 0341 — mortarman, qualified on 60mm and 81mm but for practical purposes working almost exclusively with 81mm in an infantry weapons company.
My formal secondary MOS was marksmanship instructor.
If I’d been in the army, I’d have also rated Air Assault wings after attending their school at Fort Campbell. And I was my unit’s NBC NCO for a little while and attended a school to learn NBC survey/monitor.
And of course, every Marine is a rifleman.
Most infantry Marines receive, at some point, at least some instruction in using C-4 and other explosives for everything from improvised booby-trap/ambush devices to breaching heavy doors.
I happened to receive some training in 1) improvised explosives more generally and 2) differences for calculating amounts for Semtex (which has PETN in addition to RDX in it). Never had to use it, but I got it because I had a secondary billet that emphasized patrolling and reconnaissance in environments where resupply might come from the enemy’s stock.
Well rounded and respected military bio.
Appreciate you sharing that.
At least its a more believable story than the “Russia destroyed their own pipeline” narrative they were bellowing for the last 6 months https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/sabotaged-pipelines-and-a-mystery-who-did-it-was-it-russia/
At least its a more believable story than the “Russia destroyed their own pipeline” narrative they were bellowing for the last 6 months https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/sabotaged-pipelines-and-a-mystery-who-did-it-was-it-russia/
Whether confirmed or not. Still that’s how Yale Law types think. Doubtless it was edited by these legal’s to where every word is defensible.
A war crime by international law.
A war crime against an Ally, Germany, that is mindboggling.
Is the NYT an official branch of the US Goverment or an independent news organization? Inquring minds want to know.
Notice no one quite lied about anything, just endless misdirection BS. This is exactly what we would expect to see when an exceptionally militaristic nation wants to avoid responsibility for its aggression and has most “news” media secured as their enthusiastic misinformation tool.
“A source familiar with the US intelligence told CNN the assessment was not made with high confidence and is not the predominant view of the intelligence community”
Seymour Hersh tells you all about it and how it was carried out by information given to him by whistle blowers .
Who have to be kept incognito, lest they be killed. Being a journalist, he is not under any compunction to release names. However, the illegal prosecution of Assange could change everything. Illegal, because the U.S. is using the Espionage Act of 1917 to prosecute Assange, a non-citizen of the U.S. and was not an employee of the U.S. government, once they drag him over to the U.S. It will be “I Love Big Brother” time if that happens.
To the illustrious crowd assembled here. Many thanks for the chance to post some thoughts and to add a little support to a group of people who prefer alternatives to warfare.
I’ve said about all I have to say without repeating myself. I wish you all the very best.
One tiny corner where the last people with uncooked brains are gathered to pray we don’t kill everything of value and beauty so that the US can continue to dominate the energy markets. It’s nice not to feel crazy.
I’ve yet to see anyone who believes this supersecret “pro-Ukraine group” crap. Everybody now knows it’s the US – and Norway. Cat refuses to enter the bag. This fanciful fairy tale isn’t even being swallowed by the intended audience. And they’re not known to be particularly fussy about the nonsense to take in as gospel truth. Instead, from scanning the landscape, I get the general mood is now to abandon the crusade against Hersh – insofar as the whole story was mentioned at all in violation of the self-imposed media embargo – and to finally quit doubling down on accusing the Russians, to now change the story from it being a terrorist attack on the EU economy, punitive retribution for partaking in sanctions, attempting to put pressure on EU governments, creating shortages to sharply drive up the price of gas in order to damage economies in order to sow discord and setting up the public against their governments into the new and improved narrative of the attacks being a wonderful, wonderful thing that we all should be thankful for. The reason for that is that it weaned us of our addiction to Russian gas and so now we are free and remain a democracy. Hooray for terrorist attacks on our infrastructure!!
So, yes this is the “strongest possible response” that the EU has in store for the “any deliberate disruption of active European energy infrastructure. The formidable EU power on the world stage at display: collectively putting our asses up and beg our Atlantic Overlords to please stick it deeper.
CIA is leaking false narrative to NY Times. And it would be more believable had it been released before Seymour Hursh’s damning report.
They hadn’t concocted that before the Hersch report, which is far more believable than some rogue Ukranians doing it.
“The divers alleged fitted the C4 explosives to the Nord Stream pipelines with sensors that enabled them to be detonated remotely at a later date.”
“The explosions were triggered by a sonar buoy dropped by an aircraft that emitted a sequence of “unique low frequency tonal sounds” which triggered the C4.”
Multiple actions by those Ukrainians which is laughable.
Biden hosted German Chancellor Olaf Scholz in Washington, a visit that
did not include the customary joint press briefing following their
They met alone, without advisors present… No witnesses.
And Joey passed the bag of $$$$$$$$ to Olaf. No witnesses.
Would have like to be a fly on the wall for that one. By the way, nano dust is a creation and could be used to spy.
We already know more than we ever wanted to about Hunter Biden’s peculiar habits 👃
KInda like that Loretta Lynch, Billy Boy Clinton meeting on the aircraft on the tarmac, when the dirt collected on Loretta was revealed to her.
So they have new intelligence. It was rogue Ukrainians. Or was it rogue Russians? They have new intelligence. And they can’t explain the how yet without the who part. But then you can believe them because “there are no firm conclusions.”
Not even the reporters themselves believe this BS … they didn’t really try that hard to sell it.
But, all that said, this gives the required wriggle room for ol’ Olaf to justify not doing anything against Germany’s great partner and friend, the US. And that’s what was needed.
They were doing their duty as journalists. As they understand what it is that they are doing. Which if it has any connection to actual journalism then it is that it is to a very precise degree its exact antithesis.
Sure, blame it on others to deflect US involvement…!
The question always is “just how stupid and gullible these liars think the american public and the world public really is.
The tragic answer is that some of this garbage actually is swallowed. However, even the Ukraine Minister of Defense says no, they were not involved.
The NYT is a piece of junk. Really.
Yup. Ukrainian cold water free-divers traveling by canoe.
From a rented yacht, with half a kiloton of high explosives, with nobody noticing.
In plain sight. Real sneaky.
Nothing non-believable about any of those three specifications.
People rent boats of various sizes all the time, and do all kinds of f*cking around offshore with them, and are seldom noticed.
Which is why the majority of boats carrying narcotics to the US probably get through without so much as a hard look from anyone.
And explosives aren’t especially difficult to acquire. There’s a significant black market in them.
I’ve planned and executed military missions in much more crowded environments without ever being noticed by the crowds. Sometimes while hidden right in the middle of them for 24-36 hours straight.
And while the providers of the civilian vehicles used presumably knew the rental was to the US armed forces, I could plan and execute those same missions today with minimal expense, with zero government backing, and without attracting any attention at all.
How many dives do you suppose those two “pro-Ukrainian” divers made? In what time period? How long do you suppose they spent at 250-300 feet? And how long on the ascents, of course?
How many of the technical divers you know (who are also competent at underwater demolition) would agree to do dives like that, from a small rented boat, with only one other diver, a total crew of five (including the divers), and no hyperbaric chamber available in case of emergency?
And the chances that a small rental boat would be appropriately configured to support deep dives like this? Slim, rather obviously.
For a long list of reasons, this doesn’t pass the smell test.
I haven’t asserted the existence of any “pro-Ukrainian” divers.
I’ve just noted that a 100-meter demo dive isn’t something so special that only state actors could plausibly do it.
But in answer to your question: The hypothetical “pro-Ukrainian” divers would have made about as many dives, in about the same time period, spent as much time at the demo site, and ascended about as fast, as the hypothetical Navy SEALs or other regime-employed divers.
The plausibility meter needle on this tends to point in the “state actor” direction. It always has. And Hersh’s reporting on it is believable. But we don’t know, and just stomping our feet, re-stating our priors as dogma, and loudly denying other eminently possible scenarios is not the same thing as knowing.
No they wouldn’t, because there’s no way that the Navy or any similar national entity would use a single pair of divers and a single small vessel in that way. The risk of mission failure and/or loss of the divers would be way too high.
There’s nothing eminently possible about the scenario being simultaneously trotted out by the US and its German hostage nation. Indeed, as described by Die Zeit, it’s pretty close to impossible. A series of hundred-meter dives, in multiple locations, to emplace fairly large charges, and the subsequent detonation of those charges, in waters under heavy surveillance by multiple countries, almost certainly would have required the assistance of state actors, at least. And the notion that it could have been carried out by a handful of folks in a rented boat, without such assistance, really is preposterous.
If I have time, I’ll look around to see what divers with relevant experience have to say about this.
“Knowing” was a good movie.
So you’re saying you *could* be fixing all these problems…
Die Zeit? If it had been, say, the Frankfurter Allgemeine I would have considered it somewhat but Die Zeit? Gimme a break. Sounds like an 007 movie.
Nevertheless I must also consider the possibility that this caper was used to cover the real attack as presented by Hersh.
US officials said, that is all the evidence they have.
The NYT and government officials lost credibility a long time ago.
Children can make up better fairy tales than the editors of the NYT, one would expect more talented people.
The corporation should hire some talent from advertisers.
Die Zeit used to be a reputable paper, not anymore, it has been denigrated to a propaganda rag along with all the other once great papers. .
Keep throwing shit against the wall and see what sticks. Stay tuned.
Well, true or not, it could be one part of Germany, and perhaps other regimes, setting up to either pull a Diem on Zelenskyy, or just abandon the Kyiv regime entirely.
Joe Lauria has a very good piece on this story up at Consortium News:
The German newspapers are giving more detail. Supposedly a Yacht was rented and four guys plus a doctor pulled it off, explosive residue was found on the boat, etc. Do I believe it? Nope, because so far nobody believable has made the claim and I don’t go about believing known liars who get their info anonymously from people claiming to be spooks/liars.
These stories are cover and that’s not to say that I automatically buy Hersh’s story either, he could have been fed disinformation as well, but at least he’s not a known liar, like the three who published the NYT article.
That German leader visited so they could get their fiction straight.
A Diversion from the Truth
During the 2003 Iraq invasion, the NYT served as the CIA’s mouthpiece for a series of lies, not the least was that Iraq had a pile of ‘weapons of mass destruction’. Now, this a new attempt by the CIA to discredit the great investigating journalist Seymour Hersh and his Feb. 8 report, which has established beyond any doubt, how the Biden administration planned and executed the sabotage of the Nord Stream pipelines, on Sept. 26, 2022, (just as Pres. Joe Biden had said he would do, on February 7, 2022). This has been an act of state terrorism and an act of war, without any input from Congress.
It is shameful that the New York Times, which censored journalist Hersh and his 5000-word report, is presently letting itself be the CIA’s poodle.
Only the United States had the technology to blast large pipelines nearly 300 feet under the Baltic Sea, not a gang of neo-Nazi Ukrainians.
So some random civis rented a yacht, procured 3x500kg of high explosives, accuretely located the 3 pipelines, dove 90 metres with commonly available scuba equipment, properly transported and dove with and planted 3×500 kg of said HE, had the means to and detonated remotely through the ocean – 3 pipelines simultaneously, all this without any detection. Got it.
and then they have the nerve to call anyone else conspiracy theorists LMFAO!! I would believe the earth is flat before I believe this comedy!!
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