Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky on Monday said the “whole population” of Russia is responsible for the war in Ukraine and called on Western nations to ban all Russian travelers as a punishment.
“Whichever kind of Russian … make them go to Russia,” Zelensky told The Washington Post. “They’ll understand then. They’ll say, ‘This [war] has nothing to do with us. The whole population can’t be held responsible, can it?’ It can. The population picked this government and they’re not fighting it, not arguing with it, not shouting at it.”
Zelensky claimed that the West banning Russian travelers was the only way to prevent Russia from annexing Ukrainian territory. Russian-installed officials in the Russian-controlled Ukrainian territories of Kherson and Zaporizhzhia have said they are planning to hold referendums to join the Russian Federation.
Secretary of State Antony Blinken has warned the US would respond if Russia annexed Ukrainian territory, but it’s not clear what that response could be as the US has already imposed so many sanctions on Moscow.
Zelensky said the current sanctions regime was “weak” compared with banning all Russians from traveling and a total embargo on Russian energy, which would send global oil prices skyrocketing. Russian airlines have already been banned from flying over most of Europe and North America, but a blanket ban on Russian travel hasn’t been implemented.
Russia responded to Zelensky’s comments on Tuesday, condemning them as irrational. “The irrationality of his thinking in this case is off the scale,” Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said. “This can only be seen extremely negatively. Any attempt to isolate Russia or Russians is a process that has no prospects.”
Was this before or after Zelensky conferred with the Mad hatter?
Didn’t somebody else blame an entire population for everything he thought was wrong with the Fatherland?
Let’s be honest, if Zelensky wasn’t a far right Nazi-adorning racist before, he sure has proven himself to be one now. Just blame all Russians for the war and ban all opposition political parties and jail opposition politicians. Is he gonna round up all ethnic Russians in Ukraine and intern them next, just like we did in WW2 interning Japanese Americans?
Probably, Pal.
Wouldn’t he have to round up himself?
He already did. Recent order to Donbas population to evacuate “for safety, In response to Amnesty report on the use of civilian populatiin as shields , he will actually deport Russian population to yet unadentified locations.
The cynical Western press calls everyone Ukrainians — even as the world knows that the EStern wnd Douthern Ukraine is populated by ethnic Russians. To Zelenski it is win-win. He fortified battle lines through cities, knowing that Russian artillery would have to kill their own people to dislidge Ukrainian forces, This is why Russian tactics consists of slow partial encirclements and blicking supply lines giving them a way out. This is to minimize casualties and destruction of civiian infrastructure.
But Western media is awash with propaganda. Russia presumably just levels cities and Ukrainians. Hard to explain the restoration of utilities in Mariupol and the obviously functional port.
But now, Zelenski has a brilliant solution: order mandatory evacuation of Russians from the eastern and Southern regions, so no danger to population! Evacuation is resisted. Apparently only disabled and elderly are evacuating as families know they cannot take care of them, but no sign of mass evacuation. I guess even Zelenski is afraid of the consequences.
But myths go on unabated — Nuclear plant in Zaporozhie is bring mined, Russians are striking it, Russians are hiding in plant’s basement, etc. Now why would they be hiding in the plant basement if Russia controls a large chunk of Zaporozhie region? And why are they “inexplicably” letting Ukrainian staff manage it? Because those are professionals not about to sabotage a nuclear power plant, that is why.
IAEA dramatically implored Russia to let the agency have access to the plant to manage it safely! And that is from people that never participated in building power plants or even adding new reactors to existing ones.
Facing facts is not a strong suit in the West.
But myths persist. Like Russian “ill-fated” offensive on Kiev! There are a lots of red faced NATO advisors, for sure. Russia acted as expected — go on Kiev. Roam around for two weeks, then leave. Why? Because in those first two weeks Russia took over Kherson and the entire coastal Zaporozhie. Strategically the most important geography of this war. Ukraine list a cess to Azov Sea. All it could do is to dramatize the “fight” for Mariupol, a city already surrounded by Russian forces!
Zelenski style drama. An insignifican actor in a big stage.
A lots of fury and noise — signifying nothing.
How about we use 23-and-me to find out who has Russian DNA
and take away all their belongings?
Well, that would include me.
Molon labe.
Poor Thomas! 😉
And Zelensky just keeps coming; after demanding the US provide Ukraine with free (errr..”deferred payment for many years”) natural gas so that HE has energy, he is also demanding that everyone else suffer by embargoing Russian energy. Because “Ukraine must have power”, but everyone else must “sacrifice for Ukraine”. How long before the Ukrainian people finally have enough of this self promoting bozo, and figure out that a bullet to his head is their best solution?
The clown is going off the deep end … half of Ukraine itself is or wants to be Russian …
Who does this guy think he is?
I believe he thinks he’s the world’s supreme commander, Lord.
Probably an elected president who is anti war, especially when it concerns his country invaded by brutal war criminals.
You must actually mean a pudgy guy in a t-shirt two sizes too small whose claim to fame is playing the piano with his johnson.
Hmmm, wonder if he did so for the Vogue photo shoot!
Yes, the Vogue photo shoot should tell everyone how much this asshole cares about “his” country.
I’m sure that Putin wont’ use this to motiveate his troops. He’s brilliant.
Yeah Hitler had some similar ideas regarding a certain group of people. Any more doubts about the nature of the ukranian Nazi regime?
In the previous Nazi regime this was known as collective punishment.
Sort of like Putin deciding to invade and thus punish the entire nation of Ukraine, because there are some confused elements in the Azov thinking that they are Nazi?
Deflect and derail. Shut up, troll.
Not coping well with allowing the opposition a voice, classical totalitarian move.
What aboutism. Subject changing. Sea Lioning. Red herring-ism. Derailment and deflection. Self proclamation of vicitimization. Inmediate resort to comparison to “totalitarianism,” etc, etc.
All the moves of a troll. This is an antiwar website. You are pro war. You are by definition, even without all of the above, a troll. Therefore, you should STFU. And I have no qualms about telling you to do so, nor will your BS accusations deter me from doing so.
STFU. Troll.
What a lot of words to say that you just do not like to be challenged – go back to your safe zone and leave discussion sites if you can’t argue even simple issues like this.
Shut up, troll.
Don’t you ever get tired of being so short of proper arguments?
You are after all supposed to be at least marginally good at debating if you are a lawyer.
Google the term “ Philadelphia Lawyer” and you’ll see where PL got his name.
I’ve never heard him claim to be an actual lawyer.
PL, I’m making the assumption that you are male. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
Thanks, and seeing as I am a male I’m fine being assumed to be so 🙂
I was actually referring to Philadelphia Lawyer.
OK no harm done.
The DPR and LPR are fighting to liberate themselves from the Kiev regime. The RF is only supporting the DPR/LPR after being invited.
Yes that is exactly what the Nazi’s did in Sudentenland – when Russia has signed an agreement to respect the territorial integrity of Ukraine – intervening in a insurrection that the Russians have themselves helped to start is just war of aggression.
Once again, deflect, derail, etc. Classic trolling.
Once again missing the point – but sticking to the script – sad that you can’t make any arguments by yourself.
Troll be gone!
As soon as you make an actual cohesive argument I’ll contemplate it, but at present I’m happy to just having you actually trolling me.
Shut up, troll. Oh, but you can’t, can you? Gotta have that last word! Even if it has no connection whatsoever to the topic at hand. I gave my take on the main topic in a lengthy post. I did not have to be cornered into finally addressing it, as you did, after endless, off topic, BS. Because I’m not a troll, but a person interested in furthering the conversation, and in sync with the ethos of this website. While you are neither.
If pocket dictators try to stifle or suppress debate by trolling commenters and telling them to shut up, then I feel it is my duty to democracy to speak up – so while I do not always have to have the last word – comments ending on shut up are pretty likely to get a reply – do you see the point?
I was debating a different issue as an answer to a commenter – so no my view on the topic of the article was not as I saw it relevant.
You seem to believe that you can dictate how people are debating an issue – is that the case?
Because you feel that you are king and anyone has to answer to questions that you want to have debated and can not tolerate that other people can debate other aspects of the issues that may turn op as part of the debate?
Do you ever not have to have the last word?
Oh yes plenty of times, seldom when people ask me to shut up or are asking questions – but thanks for asking.
Thanks for exposing another troll.
Hilarious, after all the abusive comments. Absolutely no self-reflection.
There are quite a few people here who have no problem going straight to, lets say less than polite debate – given that it is an anti war site there are more combative commenters on than what one might normally have expected.
I was a bit surprised – but then I also found that people on the far right (the conservativewoman) were predominantly pro Putin as were the people on the pretty far left on the ‘World Socialist Web Site’.
Often enough the people are so egregious in their comments that it should be clear that they are obviously not objective, other times it is not as clear, but when running out of arguments they reveal themselves by turning nasty.
When I have a spare minute or two, I do not mind allowing them the rope to hang themselves by revealing just what how incapable they are of having a civilized discussion.
Sad that anyone here should think that posters are not allowed to make their own arguments.
Well that applies to you in spades – it is you asking me to STFU not me asking you to stop arguing – have you forgotten this already?
So you support Zelensky‘s collective punishment based on racial affiliation ?
It is not based on racial affiliation as the Russians are not one race – but many – there are the Slavs and there are Asian and there are the people of Finnish ethnicity, just to mention a few.
But even though it is restricted to Russian passport holders, I do actually not support the idea of restricting their movement.
“..even though it is restricted to Russian passport holders, I do actually not support the idea of restricting their movement…”
First on topic comment, after much evasion and other BS. So, you don’t “actually support” it. Thanks for finally giving your oh so courageous and unequivocal take on the topic at hand. Having done so, why don’t you run along?
Only someone blinded by their own bias could fail to spot the on topic arguments I have made so far. There is nothing courageous in having a different attitude to the issue than Zelenskyy.
I just happen to believe that we are likely to attract more defectors by not being quite as restrictive towards Russian travelers – during the coming season.
Also nothing especially unequivocal about my ‘I do not actually support it…‘ as it is not explained in any detail.
Again, only when cornered, only when several comments deep in a subthread, do you unveil any hint as to your “position.” Readers have to wade through reams of off topic, both sidering, what about, tu quoque, nonsense by you to get to that.
Only when asked to make my view on the core topic of the article do I say that I do not actually support a travel ban on Russians – not too strange given that I was replying to a comment that maintained that it was Nazi (like) to advocate collective punishment.
In a reply to that comment it was not relevant to mention that I was not enthusiastic about a ban, as I wanted to focus on the absurd idea that the Ukrainians are Nazi if they advocate collective punishment when Putin is doing exactly that to them.
Trust you to miss out on that!
Only if they are too lazy to ask – if that is the only interesting thing to them – as stated I found the idea of labelling any reprehensive act Nazi is lowering the level of the debate so I took issue with that, my view on whether it was wise to ban Russian tourism was in the context less relevant – you have to be able to debate more than one topic at the time.
Oh FFS! You need to be “aske” about your view of the “core” topic? Otherwise, you will view yourself as free to ramble on and on about off topic, red herring, side (at best) issues. I call BS! You deflect. On purpose.
Only if you wanted to find out rather than debate the aspect of the comment that I raised – no one needs to ask me anything, but if you insist on knowing then it is smart to ask, that at least has always been my experience.
Always must have last word.
Kind of reminds me of Thomas, lol!
you support the Kiev regime wholeheartedly – that means you support the regime demand that anyone who speaks the wrong dialect get beaten and tied to a lamppost
Whatever gave you the idea that I support the Zelenskyy government wholeheartedly? I oppose war especially war of territorial conquest – that is about it.
I have at one point not too long after the start of the invasion made the remark that Ukraine is irrelevant to the issue, I would hardly have done so if my stake in this was support for the Zelenskyy government, would I?
I was always against the language laws and these have been removed AFAIK, Zelenskyy is himself a Russian speaker and him getting elected as well as the rightwing extremists losing their last member of parliament pretty much shows that there was little support for such reprehensive acts in Ukraine from 2019 (maybe to only until February 2022 but we can hope that Putin’s war has not made such bad attitudes popular again).
So then you should support the DPR and LPR desire for self determination.
I should and I might very well have done so in 2014, had they not started out by seeking outside support – from Russians, but them doing so and the Russians providing significant support to an armed insurrection made me doubt that they would have self determination.
In an ordinary situation I would have been happy to argue that there should have been imposed sanctions on the Ukrainian government of 2014 for the language laws, but this was not an ordinary ‘revolutionary’ situation – (if we can speak of such) – but a situation where Russia had broken the Budapest agreement and were not only annexing Crimea but at the very least refraining from stopping ‘private’ groups like the Wagner group sending fighters and weapons to the Donbas.
That made the situation one where supporting the DPR and LPR would lead to contagion – i.e. other countries supporting insurrection in their neighbor countries and ‘helping’ them achieve their right to self determination to be part of the country that supported their insurrection.
In short as I’m against war as a mean to achieve a goal that should be pursued peacefully, I could not support an armed insurrection based on the situation on the ground.
So you believe defending against these people is wrong ?
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/db780f7ce7395323dac2d61ce0537fbec381fd06bee9d56705f69f42f351b0da.jpg
Great job Vooch 😁
Couldn’t find any videos of the children and little old ladies tied to lampposts and being beaten by Kiev agents. Their crime ? Pronouncing the word for Bread incorrectly.
There were dozens if not hundreds of such videos posted – now it appears the war party censors don’t want us to see the truth.
Why bother man? If you said the sun sets in the west, he’d dispute that too.
Wars, I can’t decide if he’s just pulling this sh*t out of his ass, or if he’s one of the Psychic Friends.
I suspect the former.
Its like talking to someone who gets all his news from NPR. He’s Programmed to defend the War Party
Finally blocked him so tiresome
I believe that you can find the very same kind of pictures of the Wagner group fighting for the LNK and DNK, so claiming that you are defending against Nazi’s when you have them on your side is not really an argument, especially when defending is done by invading a nation where the far right has lost its last member of parliament.
The citizens of the DPR and LPR are invading ?
No the armed insurrectionists were trying with Russian help to get more territory under their control, fairly many of the citizens of Luhansk and Donetsk either fled the region or were in areas under government control – so only about 1/3 of the area was under rebel control and less than that of the citizenry.
Why are there at least 7 million maybe as many as 10 million “Ukrainians” want to be liberated from the Kiev Regime ?
Why did this desire to Be free from Kiev suddenly begin in 2014 ?
That claim is unsubstantiated the number of people that have fled west during the early years make it difficult to find the number of people who were and even more difficult to find the number of people who still are eager to be independent of Kyiv.
That said, the people who wanted to be independent of Kyiv are likely to be motivated by the language laws of the early period following the Maidan.
Did someone say unsubstantied claims ? 😂😳😂
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d3e6d028e409024ebfffcf5fea35610a60fdb81a01f83337710e10c0641ecab2.jpg
Whataboutism at its best?
That other people make unsubstantiated statements does not mean that you can do so too without being called out on it.
“I believe that you can find the very same kind of pictures of the Wagner group fighting for the LNK and DNK”
Then post them.
informnapalm DOT org/en/russian-neo-nazis-in-the-ranks-of-wagner-pmc/
romea DOT cz/en/news/world/speaking-of-nazis-the-donetsk-leader-of-pro-russian-separatists-honored-a-russian-soldier-with-nazi-symbols-on-his-uniform
www DOT romea DOT cz/en/news/world/the-times-putin-has-sent-mercenaries-to-kyiv-led-by-an-admirer-of-the-nazis-to-murder-zelenskyy-and-the-klitschko-brothers
google DOT com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.wixstatic.com%2Fmedia%2F251599_cb3b2bb8f85e4a7aa0f1049011f8e780~mv2.jpg%2Fv1%2Ffill%2Fw_600%2Ch_360%2Cal_c%2Cq_90%2F251599_cb3b2bb8f85e4a7aa0f1049011f8e780~mv2.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.respublica.lt%2Fpost%2Fsigns-of-neo-nazi-ideology-amongst-russian-mercenaries&tbnid=b8hIAFJm6uGeTM&vet=12ahUKEwjFk_GOtcH5AhVIxIsKHYanCMwQMygBegUIARCMAQ..i&docid=j7WsdKp-5KlsFM&w=600&h=360&q=wagner%20group%20leader%20nazi&ved=2ahUKEwjFk_GOtcH5AhVIxIsKHYanCMwQMygBegUIARCMAQ
“I believe that you can find the very same kind of pictures of the Wagner group fighting for the LNK and DNK”
I don’t see any pictures.
You have to replace the DOT with actual .
copy the whole text and put it in the address line of a browser then it should work.
I’m computer illiterate. Just post the pics.
Lets see if they will accept the links:
https://en.respublica.lt/signs-of-neo-nazi-ideology-amongst-russian-mercenaries
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.wixstatic.com%2Fmedia%2F251599_cb3b2bb8f85e4a7aa0f1049011f8e780~mv2.jpg%2Fv1%2Ffill%2Fw_600%2Ch_360%2Cal_c%2Cq_90%2F251599_cb3b2bb8f85e4a7aa0f1049011f8e780~mv2.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.respublica.lt%2Fpost%2Fsigns-of-neo-nazi-ideology-amongst-russian-mercenaries&tbnid=b8hIAFJm6uGeTM&vet=12ahUKEwjFk_GOtcH5AhVIxIsKHYanCMwQMygBegUIARCMAQ..i&docid=j7WsdKp-5KlsFM&w=600&h=360&q=wagner%20group%20leader%20nazi&ved=2ahUKEwjFk_GOtcH5AhVIxIsKHYanCMwQMygBegUIARCMAQ
https://www.romea.cz/en/news/world/the-times-putin-has-sent-mercenaries-to-kyiv-led-by-an-admirer-of-the-nazis-to-murder-zelenskyy-and-the-klitschko-brothers
http://www.romea.cz/en/news/world/speaking-of-nazis-the-donetsk-leader-of-pro-russian-separatists-honored-a-russian-soldier-with-nazi-symbols-on-his-uniform
https://informnapalm.org/en/russian-neo-nazis-in-the-ranks-of-wagner-pmc/
And those pics make the Wagner group on par with the Azov battalion Nazi- wise? Hardly. Have our boys in our military take off their shirts and I’m sure you will find some swastikas.
How is the picture you provided any better than the ones I provided – and more to the point how are the allegations about either group any better than those of the other?
I didn’t provide the picture. But if I did, I would point out yours, which mostly shows one man, are just individual unrelated shots that really don’t prove anything other than the Wagner Group has Nazi’s in them. I would imagine Blackwater has a few too. I have no use for mercenaries from any country but mercenaries are not the same as being part of a someone’s military/government like in Ukraine. The whole point of bringing up Nazi’s in the Wagner Group is to deflect from the influence the Nazi’s have on the Ukrainian government. So instead of people denying that influence, they instead claim the Wagner Group is on par with influencing Russia’s government as the Nazis are in Ukraine and that’s just not so and you know it.
Which is exactly where we are with the allegations that the Azov is Nazi – neither is properly documented and likely neither is actually true – in the sense that neither group is actually Nazi as in believing that Slavs are sub human and thus they themselves are sub human. What they are is more likely rightwing extremist and white supremacist.
The rightwing used to be part of the parliament and in 2014 government, that is no longer the case since 2019 where they lost their last member of parliament.
If you want to argue that they have influence on the government then that applies just as much to the Wagner group in Russia.
No it is to show you and others that accusation of Nazi connections can be bandied about for both parties and that they are irrelevant to the conflict.
I do refute the idea that the Azov is actually Nazi – they do not believe that they themselves as Slavs are sub human and therefore though some of then label themselves Nazi – they are not. I also refute the notion that the rightwing extremists exert a serious problematic influence in Ukraine certainly the Nazi (there must be extremely few such Aryan people in Ukraine) exert any special influence upon a government led by a Jewish Russian speaker.
And there you go. You believe the MSM and I don’t. Now dissect each and every word of that comment.
What in my comment makes you believe that I believe the MSM? What I believe is that Slavs are unlikely to be dumb enough to think themselves sub human and therefore more likely to have a different perspective on what Nazi is than what they actually are/were.
What I also believe is that the founders of the Wagner Group are very well connected to Putin, simply because they so often have appeared in pictures with him, and they get called in whenever there is trouble.
I also fairly clearly state that there are Nazi accusations thrown at the Azov and the Wagner Group – but that I give little credence to these – less it would appear than you do, so just what is it that makes you think that I am a believer of the MSM?
Damn near everything you say. I’ve read your extensive arguments/debates with others.
And? What do you extract from the fact that I reply to the same assertions in much the same way?
That person with the swastika btw. is not just one of their boys but the likely founder of the Wagner Group Dmitry Valerievich Utkin.
Allegedly. Consider the source.
There are multiple sources for these allegations – just like I suspect that there are for your assertions!?
But I’ve even read the assertions that Ukraine’s government has a Nazi element in the MSM. The Wagner group are mercenaries, like our beloved Blackwater/XE or whatever they call themselves. Apples and grapefruit.
Sure, you may have read this, that does not make it true however – as stated the rightwing in Ukraine lost its last representative in parliament in 2019 – Zelenskyy being a Jew it is unlikely that he would have hired a Nazi or that a Nazi would have worked for him.
If you (wisely) dropped the idea of labelling Slavs Nazi then you might get easier traction to your ideas – as it is entirely more likely that rather rightwing people are involved in defense as is the case in very many countries.
Sure if apples are grapefruit as the Wagner group is actually extremely well connected to Putin and the Kremlin inner circle so closer to the actual decisions than any would be Nazi is likely to be in Ukraine.
Or against these WMDs ?
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e9f34770376c7bb6dd35c09dd5de26038b9246f46b92aa21ad609b50e8a177f5.jpg
This has been thoroughly debunked several times – AFAIK not even the Russians are trying to present this as their rationale in any international forum anymore – was not credible at any time anyway.
Hello ?
Plenty of Senators already confirmed the existence of US military Biolabs in Ukraine. State Department did too.
Biolabs are not for researching WMD so that the US supported research in biolabs is a very far cry from them supporting developing WMD.
That’s really hilarious. Next you’ll be telling us that the War Party never lies
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a06796efa2c3130f0a25b7f85b81c355300930c4f74a9bf401c6e237ba1739cc.jpg
No, I’ll be telling you that the Russians are no longer pushing this line, so why are you?
Belgian Babies Bayoneted
Tonkin Gulf
Kuwait Baby Incubators
Bosnian Rape Camps
2 planes 3 towers
Saddams WMDs
Libyan Raoe Pills
Kabul will never fall
Quite the pattern there isn’t it ? It’s not called the Empire of Lies for nothing.
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5b0eaf092821d5805c370398097628d8c7786fa1b012549c710136a7fb5b13ba.jpg
Just what is this is supposed to imply?
That the US troops commit war crimes – if so that does in no way imply that the Russians do not, which is kind of why many of us are against war – if you have a war, war crimes are very likely.
That is a list of bald faced lies your information sources used to jusitfy killing. Its a pattern with your sources.
One also notes a distinct anti-Russian racism in your posts. One senses you believe Russians are untermensch or some sort.
What sources are you now talking about in the comment you have replied to there is none mentioned.
How do you get that vibe? To me there is no racial distinction between Russian Slavs and Ukrainian Slavs – and I have at no point stated that I regarded either to be sub human, so what are you here on about and what makes you leap to these assertions?
Sources that these are all bald faced lies ? Oh come on now – these have been exposed for years and years and years.
Surely you aren’t trying to argue that the Tonkin Gulf ‘battle’ was real are you ?
In a reply to my comment:
You say something about the sources I use – there were no sources used in that comment, so what are you on about and what sources is it that you take issue with?
You now make things even less clear by writing:
Did you not read my reply, because nothing in the reply above suggests that I claim that there was an attack on US destroyers in the gulf of Tonkin – one is tempted to ask if you are quite sober, but perhaps you just misread my reply???
Or defending against this wholesale attacks ?
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/1cd29525c8a7187d34057e3db23ace94cbcc71552659581a4af60aa41d6c6463.jpg
How can you call a Russia invading to support one side in an ongoing insurrection protecting against an attack which is not against Russia? That is not how defending works and btw. there is AFAIK nothing that remotely suggests that there was a build up of any extraordinary attack from the Ukrainian side when the Russians started building up for their special military operation in mid 2021.
Really ?
Then why did the international observers record a vast uptick in Kiev’s cannon fire over the LOC ?
Why was Kiev’s elite 17th Tank Brigade moved from its barracks in Kyrih Rog (sp?) into a attack position in the Far East of Ukraine at the edge of the LOC ?
It’s clear that Kiev was planning a blitzkrieg attack against its own citizens in the DPR and LPR.
What’s wrong with a neutral Ukraine ? The people of Ukraine voted overwhelmingly in 2019 for neutrality and respect for minority rights. Why shouldn’t the desires of Ukrainians be respected ?
Check the date of the rapport: 21/2-2022 so significantly after the Russian build up – so the Russian build up can’t be because of these violations – time inconsistent.
Could that be because the Russian build up – or can you show that this happened before June 2021?
Do you have any documents that purport to show this from before June 2021? Otherwise what you have is the Ukrainians responding to the already back then reported Russian build up of forces near their border.
Nothing is wrong with a Neutral Ukraine as long as they are free to do what they want – so if the Russians build up forces near their borders then they should be free to apply for NATO membership.
You know they should be sovereign as they were promised in the Budapest agreement.
It is NOT about “ territorial conquest”. Ukraine is the poorest nation in the EU; do you think Putin needs that albatross around his neck?
He wishes for INDEPENDENCE for Donbas, not for Russia to absorb it.
As far as Crimea: the population has spoken. They wish to be Russian.
Russia’s war goal is specifically to annex not only Crimea, Luhansk and Donetsk but all currently held areas, so regardless your by the way wrong assertion (Large swathes of Russia are much poorer) you are just proven wrong by Russia’s announced war goals.
You are behind the curve that was what Putin wanted before the war, not their now announced war goal!
That is not how things work as in not how self determination works.
Really?
Then pray tell how else would it work?
Self determination works without a foreign power first taking control of the area where the self determination is supposed to take place, the second problem is that the questions put to the population is not determined by that or any foreign power, and the third problem is that all of the inhabitants get a vote and only them – when Russia took over Crimea a significant amount of people left – guess which.
And, Wash. did in Texas also. (not to mention Indian lands.) Wash. intervened in the Texas Revolution against Mexico and then took most of their country. That’s what govs. do all the time. Keep America out of these foreign wars and really make America first, which could be done without Trump.
And here comes the deluge. Wait for it…..
That was what governments used to do – kind of not what governments of the world have been doing since the cold war (if not actually WWII) i.e. there are very few cases of any government starting a war of territorial conquest since 1991 and even fewer where they have not been met with sanctions.
But the point here was rather that it is not indicative of being Nazi to do so.
Today, unlike then, the US conquers the territory it wants and then sets up puppet regimes in order to take whatever resources Wash. wants to give to their campaign donors, i.e. big oil, and other corps too numerous to list.
Agreed – it has however not worked out to their benefit in neither Iraq nor Afghanistan – it kind of worked in Granada, but otherwise I can’t remember any place where a US led invasion has worked out for the economic benefit of US companies wanting to operate in the target country, can you?
I was against the Iraq war exactly for this reason btw.
Here’s a list of US corps. who profited from the Iraq war.
The list is empty – or was that on purpose? Just asking because the oil companies which were probably lobbying for the war, most certainly did not win in the way they intended and are by now very likely aware that they could have made a lot more money had they argued for lifting the sanctions against Saddam giving them preferential access.
Sorry, forgot the link. More on google if you search. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/iraq-war-profiteers-25-co_n_115004
The problem with the list is that most f the companies could have made much more money from not invading and getting contracts with Saddam Hussein instead.
The way this was sold in the US was that the US would kick the door in and the companies would profit from the new regime allowing them and extraordinary share of the Iraqi (mostly oil) wealth.
What has happened is that the US had to destroy so much of the country that the US ended up paying most of the profits of the 25 companies on your list – not a thing that most senators would vote for in any future proposed invasions.
The list you provide is with some exceptions pretty clearly showing just how bad an idea this invasion was for the US – and that the companies involved may have lost a considerable amount of influence if they were involved in selling this invasion as a good / profitable venture.
There are a few exceptions, but the evidence that ‘not war’ is more profitable is fairly clear – the top profiteer Haliburton got all its profits directly from uncle Sam.
I have found a few companies that has possibly profited from the war as it was originally envisioned and then only for 3-4 years:
And likely as not this was also payed more by the US tax payer than from Iraqi oil profits.
So in conclusion I think that the US senate has realized that not only the Afghan war (which they knew even before it started) but also the invasion of Iraq was a major fault and an economic drain on the US – and that is why they are unlikely to be very eager to repeat such adventures in the near future.
Of course, but little Mikey the Troll only wants to deflect and derail. The subject of this thread is Zelensky’ latest deranged demand. The troll knows there is no defending that absurdity, and so he seeks to deflect and derail. To bait the commentariat with Whataboutisms and Bothsiderims into arguing with him about other issues. Then he will use red herrings, endless verbosity and repetition, pompous insistence on his own view of proper “debate” protocol, last wordism, cries of victimhood, and other trollish tactics, to beat everyone down. That is his tactic.
When you send old Ukrainian men and women along the front lines to do your bidding, isn’t that a sure ban against your fellow citizens extending or preserving their lives?
I know I know, they’re doing it for Washington and the WEF.
They should have done this from day 1
But the day before day one you were in agreement with Russia in that they had legitimate concerns about their security. So, one day later all that disappeared because they invaded. I guess they should have waited until a first strike (on them) was doable. Or maybe they should have reacted AFTER the first strike?
War changes everything, Osama bin Laden had some legitimate objections too but he expressed himself poorly.
What about that first strike capability on your borders? Does that change anything? And if you thought Russia had legitimate concerns about their security, at what point were they supposed to react? And how?
And that is an imaginary concern, filed under biolabs and Iraqi WMD. The odds that Ukr would be admitted to NATO were zero prior to this invasion.
Really? You don’t think first strike capability isn’t the ultimate goal? What exactly were Russia’s concerns? And Ukraine didn’t have to be admitted to NATO and this war is proving just that.
The poor man is realizing the terrible situation in which he has been placed.
Zelensky – most radical madman in a long long time.
Sounds like Zelensky is in charge and running the show. He decides and tells USA/NATO what they should do and and how much more money and weapons they have to deliver. He makes Biden jump through a hoop, not just Scholz in Germany.
Another American incursion gone wrong, off the rails. It seems like each failure produces another one. Wasn’t Afghanistan proof enough of failure of the U.S. military PLUS NATO’s sad failure. And this new one had an advantage in the fevered minds of Neocon’s, Weaken their archenemy Russia. But if what appears 2B true, is true, it’s an even bigger embarrassment than the mega one just past in Afghanistan!!!!! Just when will all this U.S. war making end..?? Will it take financial collapse??
Zelensky is letting his Azov out.
Zelensky says…Zelensky says…Zelensky says…
C’mon, Amerikkka, keep bending over and takin’ it in the ass from the prick-piano-playing, high-heel-dancing, too-tight-t shirt-wearing little Nazi.
I got a real visual on that Gypsy!..
I’m here to help, Donna 😉
How about we ban all travel from Ukraine as well, since we already know US-supplied weapons are being sold to terrorists and other unsavory characters from within its borders? We simply can’t take a chance on the proof of this being a mushroom cloud over a major American city, you know.
https://usawatchdog.com/trump-raid-deathblow-to-democracy-martin-armstrong/
Interview with Martin Armstrong.
He has a book coming out in November titled, “The Plot to Seize Russia.”
“Whichever kind of Russian … make them go to Russia,” Zelensky told The Washington Post. “They’ll understand then. They’ll say, ‘This [war] has nothing to do with us. The whole population can’t be held responsible, can it?’ It can. The population picked this government and they’re not fighting it, not arguing with it, not shouting at it.”
One thing I actually like about this ridiculous tirade and demand is that it undercuts the whole “Putin is a brutal dictator ramming this war down the throats of his unwilling fellow citizens” narrative propagated by the Kiev Neo Nazi regime and the USA/NATO/MSM. As the little puppet perhaps unwittingly states, the Russian population IS actually on board with the special military operation designed to denazify, neutralize, and demilitarize the Ukraine, and if that in addition means toppling the Kiev Neo Nazi regime, so be it. For months we have heard that Putin is hanging on by his fingernails, that he has little to no support within the government or the ruling circles generally, much less among the general populace, which is said to almost uniformly oppose the operation, but is too cowed to protest (outside of the few public demonstrators).
But now we are told by the puppet “president” of the Kiev Neo Nazi entity that Russian citizens generally picked their own government, and are, far from protesting about, or “shouting” about, or “fighting,” the war that the government is waging, they are not even “arguing with it.”
Next par., in the underlyig WaPo article:
“Don’t you want this isolation?” Zelensky added, speaking as if he were addressing Russians directly. “You’re telling the whole world that it must live by your rules. Then go and live there. This is the only way to influence Putin.”
And this part undercuts even more the notion of Russia as some anti-democratic dictatorship generally, which is a staple of USA/NATO/MSM propaganda. Apparently, according to the little comedian, Putin and the Russia government are amenable to “influence” by Russian citizens who would be denied the right to international travel, and, by extension, one would assume, that must also mean that Putin is responsive to the complaints and priorites of his fellow citizens generally.
In other words:
Russia picked Putin. Putin launched the SMO. Russians approve of the SMO.
Yes, Mr. President Zelinsky, that’s right! For once, you managed to string together three truthful, correct, and accurate statements. Now run along, clown!
“Russia picked Putin. Putin launched the SMO. Russians approve of the [war].”
If that’s the case, then those who oppose sanctions should stop complaining that sanctions hurt the regular people. If they bought the ticket, it’s hard to argue that they shouldn’t take the ride.
Meh. Your unspoken assumption is, of course, that the SMO is wrong, and that therefor there should be a “ride” given out in punishment for it. To somebody, to whoever is responsible, whether that be Putin, his ruling circle, or the entire country.
There is, although it would never occor to a fellow travellor of the Blob like you, another alternative. Which is that it was the USA/NATO/the Kiev Neo Nazi regime which started the war, and thus, if anyone should be on the hook for “the ride,” it should be them.
In other words, in broad terms, Putin is right and Zelensky, Biden, the USA, NATO and the MSM are wrong. It is really that simple, in the end. They should pay the price. No one else.
Beyond that, there are other grounds for contesting your childish comment, but I can’t be arsed to argue them right now.
I don’t have any “unspoken assumption.”
I’m against any US involvement in the war in Ukraine.
I’m against the US regime funding or supporting either side.
I’m against the US/EU/NATO sanctioning anyone over it.
But if the argument against those sanctions is “they just hurt the regular people, not the leaders,” then “the regular people support the war” isn’t a good argument for those who oppose the sanctions to put forward.
To date, I haven’t seen you “arsed” to actually argue anything.
But if the argument against those sanctions is “they just hurt the regular people, not the leaders,” then “the regular people support the war” isn’t a good argument for those who oppose the sanctions to put forward.
As I said, your unspoken assumptions prevent you from recognizing, or even addressing when it is spelled out to you, the other, better way of looking at it. Which is that if the SMO is justified, then what you call “the argument” against sanctions is moot, and never even arises. The US is wrong, hence, its sanctions are wrong. Regardless of who they hurt.
If you are truly against the US sanctions, as you say you are, then that shouldn’t matter, at all. It just is neither here nor there whether the sanctions are hurting the people who support the SMO, whoever they are. And so this side, marginal, argument about them hurting the “ordinary people who don’t support the war” is a red herring. And not something you need be concerned with.
To date, I haven’t seen you “arsed” to actually argue anything.
I have now done so. Twice. If you haven’t seen it, then that is on you.
And there are plenty of other arguments that could be made. But, again, why should I be arsed, when you won’t address the first one, which is dipositive?
“Russia good, America bad” isn’t any more an “argument” than “America good, Russia bad.”
You’ve picked a war you like, but pretend to be anti-war by stomping your foot and demanding it be treated as a “justified” “SMO.” Big whoop. Fake anti-war types are a dime a dozen.
Wow! Talk about deflections!
I appreciate how you always recognize and call out this attitude, Thomas. It’s unfortunate how many commenters are of this ilk.
I suspect that most people question whether they should really be anti-war, when a war comes along that their other principles say they should support.
The problem is that being “anti-war except for THIS one” is kind of like being “a little bit pregnant.”
It’s not a matter of “supporting” war. It’s giving an opinion on a war that has already started. I suppose everyone could give a disclaimer about supporting the war before giving an opinion to prove they are actually anti-war. Would that be sufficient?
Exactly, Wars.
It’s not as though any one of us were gleefully rubbing our hands together and drooling in anticipation of Russia invading Ukraine.
Rather, it’s more of an understanding of the intense provocations that resulted in the the commencement of the war.
And the resulting anger we are experiencing at Amerikkka and its bitches in NATO continuing to fuel the conflict rather than pressing ZelBoy to engage in negotiations to bring it to an end.
Got it, Thomas and Lemonhead?
Oooh, I love Lemonheads! Got any?!
Yep, just for you 🙂
This may be a bit much to ask … but how about alpacas? 😉 (I’ve always wanted a pet alpaca, but apparently they’re very difficult to keep properly. And I’m pretty sure my suburban township ordinances would frown on it …)
Sorry, LP, no alpacas here, only horses and kitties.
You don’t want one anyways. They spit. If you’d like an exotic pet, I’d recommend one of those adorable Pygmy goats. Just make sure you have good fencing.
I forgot about the spitting lol. And goats are adorable, but too naughty for me to handle!
Yes, I got it: You picked a side to be pro-war for, but don’t want to give up your “anti-war” cred.
Which leaves you defending the Russian forces when they do things you have a shit-fit over when they’re done by, say, Israeli or US forces. Things like sending forces into another country to support “rebels.” Or complaining that the other side is “using human shields.”
There IS no comparison between Russia initiating a war in order to defend its people, and the wholesale slaughter of largely helpless Palestinians by the Zionazis.
Now, you might have a valid point if the West was supplying the Palestinians with billions worth of weaponry. But the opposite is true: therefore, you HAVE no validity in comparing the two.
You might well recall, Thomas, that ZelBoy promised to turn Ukrainazia into a “big Israel”.
Is that the kind of government you’d support? That remark alone is enough to make me detest that clown with my entire being.
The fact that you dislike what the validity of the comparison says about your position isn’t an argument against the validity of the comparison.
Because it’s counterproductive, sanctions garner support for regime when they r not particularly enamored with the leadership( as u guys keep saying in this site) so imagine what happens when the population supports the leader and his actions and see themselves punished for that support.
I agree that sanctions are counter-productive.
I agree that sanctions hurt “the regular people,” not “the leaders.”
I was just pointing out that claiming “the regular people” support “the leaders” is not a good argument to pair with “sanctions hurt the regular people.”
As for whether the “regular people” really do support the “leaders” in this instance, that’s a murky question in any instance.
One way to find out in this instance would be for, at the next election, United Russia and “the leaders” to not stick 49% of opposition candidates in prison, bar another 49% of opposition candidates from the ballot, contest 2% of opposition candidates with United Russia candidates of the same names, and send the police in to break up any opposition rallies that the opposition dares schedule.
And no, you don’t have to tell me that the American uni-party has its own set of tactics for preventing meaningful opposition.
If the sanctions impact ‘the regular people’, wouldn’t they be encouraged to choose different leaders?
If another country sanctioned the country you live in, who would you blame for your hardship? Sanctions encourage ‘the regular people’ to rally around their leaders.
The direction for blame would entirely depend on the reasons for the sanctions. I suppose there must be decent Russians who can be encouraged to help end the war.
Really? And you think the citizens of other countries will agree with the sanctioning country? Would you be “decent” enough to allow yourself to be sanctioned into economic devastation if the world sanctioned us for our invasion of Iraq?
If I supported a war and as a consequence faced sanctions from the rest of the world, that would make me reconsider my support. But of course I can’t speak for others.
See what wars r u.s. says.
The usual popular response to unfriendly actions by another regime is to rally around one’s own regime.
In fact, US sanctions have probably been key to keeping the Cuban regime in power for 60 years and the Iranian regime in power for more than 40 years.
Which is just the way the US regime likes it, because its foreign policy and domestic military-industrial policy are predicated on keeping a set of Enemies of the Week in business.
Your assessment might be correct. On the other hand the situation in Ukraine is rather different.
But that is certainly not the EU’s reason. This war is seen as a very real threat.
Thomas, you must know that NONE of us in the EU chose von der Leyen, Josep Borrell, Charles Michel……. as we were never asked nor even consulted.
Were you under the misimpression that I’ve claimed you did choose them?
“.. Russian-installed officials in the Russian-controlled Ukrainian territories of Kherson and Zaporizhzhia have said they are planning to hold referendums to join the Russian Federation. …”
“Russian-installed officials …” is not consistent with or supported by “reporting” of news sites such as Moon of Alabama, Grayzone and MintPress News, among other news sources, which use authored articles and with reporting on the ground from Kherson and Zaporizhzhia for the last number of years.
This unauthored article provides no evidence or attribution for this claim or assertion.
The claim or assertion is consistent with and supported by the so-called “main stream media” and the President of Ukraine.
What is the evidence or support for the claim or assertion in this unauthored article?
dennis hanna
I substitute “US” for “Zelensky” when the latter calls for a certain policy, esp. in this case. This is standard depraved US reasoning I’ve seen used before, ie, US “good guys” call on civilian populations to overthrow their own gov. When US turned off the electricity in Venez. during Trump, Pompeo said we love the suffering Venez. people whose electricity we turned off, but they should just see things our way and overthrow their gov. Ukr has been a US colony for many years, esp. since 2014 when US violently overthrew Ukr’s elected government. When you accept billions in US “help” you become a US colony-that’s the deal.
Well said Susan!
If Pelosi is the Wicked Witch of the West, Zelensky fancies himself the great and mighty Wizard of Oz himself — oops! — except Z is getting the US to bend to his wishes — and with alacrity.
The US isn’t technically at war with Russia, so how could Wash. justify such a policy? I know how, Mr. Z is now a sacred cow both in Wash. and the MSM and what Mr. Z wants, Mr. Z gets, regardless of constitution and laws, right? Ukraine is just another parasite on the American tax payers, but I guess Israel isn’t enough. Gotta keep those AIPAC and MIC funds coming into Wash. Wanna bet Tel Aviv is getting jealous of Ukraine getting many more billions than they do?
Lily, he’s a sacred cow that’s rapidly becoming a white elephant.
Zelensky wants the World – So did Hitler
Sounds like Zelensky has been messing around with the nose candy again.
The end is coming. I knew things were not going well when the gave the f…ng wife of the president the floor in us congress, not a video link with zelansky or a speech by his foreign minister but a person who has no mandate. This proved things r going badly and they r resorting to gimmick. I knew things going very badly when zelansky told people to leave donbas meaning they r about to lose it and there actually is enough support for Russia there to hold a referendum and I knew things r going catastrophically wrong when he made these unhinged comments.
This war will end within this year and Russia will achieve it’s redrawn goals after they failed regime change in Kiev and unlike what I thought there will be no major insurgency( when u fight a total war the defeat is a total defeat).
Sad, so many patriotic Ukrainian dead fighting for their land is dead and the result will be this
This is not the first time that the US has allowed the wife of a foreign leader to speak to the congress
americanrhetoric DOT com/speeches/soongmaylingspeechtocongress DOT htm
Though that did not end well for Chiang or Madame Chiang Kai-shek – it certainly did not end well for the Japanese who were attacking the Chinese at the time.
That there is likely to be majority support for Russia among the few people who remain is hardly surprising, but then the very fact that so many of the original inhabitants have fled also makes a mockery of any pretense that Putin can hold a valid referendum on the will of the population of the area.
So you expect the Russians to occupy all of Ukraine otherwise how do you expect them to be able to force a unconditional surrender? Furthermore do you think that Putin will be content with the Ukrainians agreeing to terms but the sanctions continuing?
No, not all of Ukraine just donbas and the surrounding area followed on by an armistice. We can see if I m right shortly so let the ground reality show who is right.
A lot of them fled to Russia and western propaganda of claiming them being forcefully taken by Russians r suspect as recent event shows clearly Ukraine firing on a Russian military sites within the nuclear plant and they claim Russia is shelling it’s own positions
Chiang is a bad example to as I consider zelansky a far more courageous than that c…k and what u said doesn’t do anything to refute my claim. Gimmicks do work sometimes but not when the superpower is not a rising one like the 2nd world War us but a falling one like the current us
I’m fairly sure that you are right that this would be what the Russians wanted, just not so sure the Ukrainians are willing to sign an armistice based on this and much less sure that the West would end sanctions based on that, and would you think that Putin would want peace without the sanctions being lifted?
OK – what is your expected timeframe – I would not think that the Russians would be able to take the rest of Donetsk before the fall mud starts likely not before the end of the year, but I too could wrong.
I’m not talking about the people who were there to be ‘taken’ by the Russians but about the people that fled before the Russians took the areas.
I do not think it wise to debate the issues based only on the claims of either party, before we have evidence to support the claims, so I presently do not think that we can no for sure either way the post by Major General Valeriy Vasiliev is just one more of such items that shows that we can easily be confused by the things tha parties say:
power-technology DOT com/news/zaporizhzhia-nuclear-plant-ukraine-russia-invasion/#:~:text=Ukraine’s%20nuclear%20state%20enterprise%2C%20Energoatom,the%20Zaporizhzhia%20Nuclear%20Power%20Plant.
I did not wish to refute what you said just to ask you why Zelenskyy’s wife speaking to congress was evidence of ‘things were not going well‘ given that it is nothing new.
I think I understand your point, just not sure that I see the US as a falling superpower – not a point you have argued, so not clear to me why you think so – you could be right but not clear to me.
As I said by the end of the year,that’s my time frame at the extreme end. I think it will probably be over sooner.
Why I think us is in decline? Go look at the four leaders they elected in the recent past first a dimwitt coward like Bush jr(this is not hyperbole on my part I genuinely think the man was someone with average/less than average intelligence) followed by a truely capable leader (maybe even great) like Obama then an outright fraud and finally a man going through cognitive decline. The country is deeply divided and sections of the population see other sections as enemy (which is a genuine threat to a country that had a civil war). It has failed to win a war after Iraq war1 and has massive debt burden.
Thanks for the reply, it is sometimes difficult to debate when we do not know/agree on the timeframe.
Thanks I get the point now, and I even think I agree that this is a sign of severe problems.
“followed by a truely capable leader (maybe even great) like Obama”
Holy shit man, you must have been listening to his speeches and not his actions.
This jumped up “comedian” seems to be treated as king of the world by the kowtowing West. A corrupt, debt-ridden failed state wants to grab Weapons and money, send all its men to war and their own deaths while making Russia’s demands even greater.