A new poll for the DPA news agency is showing German voters are growing resistant to the current level of spending on the military in their country, as well as the number of US troops that Germany is playing host to.
The poll shows that, even as officials fret President Trump threatening to pull US troops out of Germany, voters would welcome the US departure, with only a hair over a third of the Germans wanting US soldiers to stay. 35,000 US troops are currently in Germany.
Taken along party lines, Germans on both the left and the right were the heaviest supporters of the US withdrawal, with Die Linke voters overwhelmingly backing the idea. The ruling Christian Democrats are the least strongly in favor of the pullout.
Germans are not just sick of foreign troops, either. The poll showed strong resistance to Chancellor Angela Merkel’s call to spend 2% of Germany’s GDP on the military. Only 15% of Germans support that idea.
Indeed, not only did an overwhelming majority say that 2% is too much for Germany to spend, some 36% of Germans say that the nation’s current military spending, about 1.2% or $44.3 billion, is already too much as it is.
1.2% is at the low end of percentages for NATO members, but Germany’s massive economy means even that is enough to make them one of the top 10 spending militaries on the planet. Since Germany is friendly with every nation it borders, there is a strong case to be made that a lot of this spending is extraneous.
Since World War 2, Germany has committed itself heavily to developing a culture averse to large military spending and overseas campaigns. This has been a very good move, turning them into the economic powerhouse of Europe.
But as the US is finding out, this anti-militarist culture is entrenched enough that US pushes to dramatically increase spending are a tough sell to the ruling coalition, and completely unpalatable to the public at large. Germans don’t want a huge military, and the threat to withdraw US forces is no threat at all, as many would just as soon they left in the first place.
Merkel is not known for placing German interests over Globalist ones.
She would no more stand for U.S. troops leaving Germany than abandon her failed migrant policy.
I am sure that there exists a SOFA agreement of our government with Germany which includes a renewal clause. Probably renewal every four years (could be automatic if the Bundestag does not intervene). Such agreements also commonly contain a clause which allows every party to the agreement to announce withdrawal at any time but with a one-year grace period to get the withdrawal implemented in practical matters.
It is unlikely that Chancellor Merkel even has the full power to pull Germany out of that agreement. She almost certainly needs Bundestag approval. I do not know whether the Bundestag has the power to opt out without Merkel’s approval.
From what I could tell there’s just a standard NATO SOFA established in 1951, and last updated in 2009. No expiry date.
It would make sense for troop deployments to be covered by an open-ended NATO SOFA, and a supplementary agreement for each NATO country, also open-ended requiring no renewal.
There appears to be no real reason for U.S. troops to be in Germany and Trump had already asked the Pentagon to consider a full withdrawal.
Germany could either ask the U.S. to leave, or, the U.S. could pull out entirely. Germany hosts ‘only’ 32 000 U.S. troops as of June 2018. Like the Baltic states, the otherwise positive economic impact of an American presence matters more than their military strategic value.
Trump wants our troops out of Germany too. It’s long past time.
I have no reason to believe that. Neither do you.
And not just Germany! Close down our foreign bases and bring the boys home.
Amen, Brother! Close down all our bases worldwide and bring our troops home now; we need around 8,000 right at our lengthy border with Mexico to keep illegal aliens, drug cartels, and human traffickers from crossing over the border and bringing their mayhem here.
Then why doesn’t he do it ? He’s the CIC, not a reality TV hack, right? He could have pulled troops out 2 seconds after his inauguration, or, right now. When will it dawn on you, he doesn’t wanna.
The strength of the Trump cultists is that they don’t suffer from cognitive dissonance (“the mental discomfort experienced by a person who simultaneously holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values”) like normal human beings.
They have no problem announcing that Trump is the most competent, energetic, wise, strong and decisive president in history, draining the swamp and mopping up its residue, making America the envy of all nations again, with one hand tied behind his back, while simultaneously complaining that poor, weak, abused, incompetent Donald Trump is just a naive and gullible pawn of the Deep State who isn’t really responsible for anything he does.
Through them, Trump has Made America Schizoid Again.
Thomas, you are mistaken, and your hatred for Prez. Trump distorts you thinking, once again.
Again, trumps can’t respond to trump criticism without using the word “hate”
Dave, so sad, but hate it is! I never liked Obama, but hate him,,, like some of you hate Prez. Trump,,,no way! What you folks have descended into is sickness.
Hey Jay, another response with that word in it…like a mantra for you people. Tell me, you guys mean it like a middle school brat ? Or, full on alt-right ?
I’m not sure what “hatred” you’re talking about. I give Trump when he seems to deserve credit, which is about as often as his predecessors did (although for different reasons). That doesn’t change the fact that his cultists get cuckoo for Coco Puffs when trying to justify their unflagging support for him no matter what he does.
Merkel and her Minister of Defense want to crank up German military spending. Another good reason to give Angela the Poodle the boot once and for all… the Germans are clear: there is no pending military threat of invasion and occupation by Russia … now those 10.5 million , pissed off refugees from US genocidal Regime Change wars… that’s a different story.
So exactly what will the American vassal slave-state…..er, I mean the independent country ….. of Germany do to get American occupation troops out? Anything? No? All stays the same, then.
It will eventually move in the same direction of Sweden, with numerous “no go” zones, albeit at a slower rate. Then you will have reactionary (far right) and counter reactionary forces (antifa internationale) responding to this process. Something like Germany in 1919, with Islamists somewhere in the picture. Guns will be replaced by rocks, sticks, and Molotov Coctails, and klunky armored cars will be replaced by some of Europe’s most sophisticated anti riot control vehicles yet seen. Bavaria will go bye bye, trying to protect itself. As long as the anti Trump shadow government plots to engineer a war in the Baltic’s, perhaps by conviently letting a leftist / minority political coalition take power (instead of rigging out this possibility) in the most Russian hating of the Baltic’s Republics, the US is going nowhere. Sorry about that, “I hate American imperialism” fanstay worlders. They will need the logistical centers established in Germany to sustain this engineered war. Brian Ghilliotti
Your name is already shown at the top of your comment.
If Germany spends 2-4% of their GDP, they’ll once again have the largest military in Europe…is that what you really want at this time?
Keep the airbase in Germany, shut all other sites, before we in the U,S. go broke.
What do you call $20Trillion in real debt and over $250 Trillion in unfunded liabilities, if not “BROKE?”
David, I would call it the best reason to dump out Federal Tyrants!
Not to be argumentative, but then why would we keep the airbase if we are going to do the wise thing and dump our federal tyrants? And I would say that the destruction of the Bill of Rights and complete disrespect for the limits on government size, scope, and power as detailed in the Constitution is an even better reason to dump them. The debt is merely a symptom.
David, I agree with much of what you said. But, in the absence of dumping DC I would still want a handful of very strategic bases, but no where near the amount we have now. And yes, I do believe D.C. is our worst enemy and the biggest threat to our freedom.
The US should stage up a 10% draw down in troops and facilities every year for the next ten.
That way the Euros will have time to build up their own defenses and fend for themselves.
We need to end their dependency on us.
How about 50% the first year, and the rest in the next month thereafter.
Sounds good. But who’s attacking Euros?
Ask the Euros, leaving a vacuum never works out well.
They need time to build their own defense capability.
The populations would be delighted if asked. The leaders? Perhaps not.
Wonder why in these wonderful “western-style”democracies, the people never get to vote on that issue.
I would imagine that a poll taken in all 150+ nations that we infest with our military, would show the same results in nearly all. Unless you count the prostitution, alcohol, gambling, hotel, golf, arms, and rental sectors of the local economies, most citizens are likely VICTIMS of the American presence, NOT beneficiaries.
Bingo!!
What the Germans want does not matter a whit–it’s what the US wants that counts. Been that way for a while…hopefully won’t last long.
What the Germans want does not matter a whit–it’s what the US wants that counts. Been that way for a while…hopefully won’t last long.
Since I have a complete list of all active treaties and agreements of our government with the government of Germany I decided to look up those on defense and on diplomatic relations. There are 56 (!) agreements on defense and only one on diplomatic relations. Diplomacy appears to be much simpler than making war.
The second one is easy: Treaty On friendly relations, 1962.
Of the defense agreements there are only four which deal with the permanent stationing of regular US soldiers in Germany (1). The first is the NATO Status of Forces Agreement of 1959 which was supplemented in 1998. The second deals with the presence of US armed forces at the Ramstein airbase. Original 1959. Replaced 2011.
I will now try to get the full texts of the two defense agreements to find out who can do what.
(1) there are also agreements on training
So after eating and drinking at this trough for decades the Germans now want to skip out on alliance obligation to continue their economic occupation of a continent that they couldn’t defeat militarily.
Can’t wait for Russia to turn the tap off next winter like they did in Ukraine.
Let see you export those BMW’s to Siberia while you freeze your ba!!s off.
NATO should have been disbanded when the Warsaw Pact was, after the West won the Cold War.
But it wasn’t, so the free ride continued in silence until the bill came.
You’re 100% correct, John, I said that several times over, but as another poster on this thread (Mulgrave) said, it wasn’t, so the free ride continued in silence until the bill came.
I still say it; NATO should’ve been disbanded the same time the Warsaw Pact was, since the West won the Cold War and the USSR collapsed and broke into a few states. However, Russia still has the largest land mass on the planet.
…..and if Germany keeps American troops in Germany and Russia turns off the tap next winter, what would our troops in Germany do? Start a nuclear war with Russia?
Germany has been buying Gas from Russia since the 60s, and even during the ‚hottest‘ phases of the cold war were the contracts adheared to. What makes you think that that is about to change now?
I don’t think Germany will do that and indicated that with the key word “If”.
No, but they would have a secure alternate source to natural resources they could rely on.
It does not require the intelligence of a brain surgeon to deduct this.
Then what, another US funded coup in Germany (like Ukraine) to overthrow the democratically elected government? Why would Germany pay more for energy supplies with anyone else, when they can get it cheaper from Russia.
If brain surgeons can’t figure that out, then they certainly aren’t very intelligent.
Russia “turned off the tap” once and you never stop whining.
Ah the trough … yes, poor US, always taken advantage of.
The author apparently has not learned the Lessons of Munich. American troops must remain in Germany forever regardless of cost to Stop Aggression.
Germans also do not like the US nukes parked on their land, and protest about this in strong terms. As in the USA, what the people want is not what the leaders tend to do.
Here is the rub. The Status of Forces Agreement between our government and the government of Germany probably allows but does not demand the storage of US nukes on German soil. It is much harder for the German government than it is for ours to get them off. All President Trump needs to do is to order all nukes to be removed from German soil. The German government most probably must leave NATO first if our government refuses a removal.
Status of Force Agreements (SOFA’s) are not mutual defense or security agreements. They generally do not allow joint military exercises but deal with the peacetime rights, legal duties, and daily routines of the foreign military personnel in the host country. Our SOFA agreement with Germany which is NOT a treaty is anchored on a general NATO-SOFA but is specifically tailored for Germany when that country became a NATO member. In that sense it is bilateral. It is 200 pages long! Much of the text is easily available on line under TIAS 5352. It is astonishing what it regulates. Among others maintenance claims for illegitimate children fathered by US personnel!
SOFA Germany does not oblige our government to maintain any military presence in Germany. Hence President Trump would not abrogate that agreement if he pulled all US personnel and arms out of Germany.
I could not find whether the German government can demand that all US personnel leaves Germany. I believe that it requires that Germany must leave NATO first.
In the movie Red Dawn we were invaded by Russia and Europe sat it out. If Europe gets attacked maybe we should do the same. Just get out. If it wasn’t for the US they’d all be eating sauerkraut. Trump’s message to the world is the party at our expense is over. That’s what he ran on.
It was a movie you idiot. And a really sucky movie at that.
What do you got against sauerkraut?
Troll
Thanks for name calling. Shows your intelligence or lack thereof
What these people fear has nothing to do with Putin. He has no reason to strart a war in Europe and anybody would be crazy to start a war with Russia. This is all about German independence. When you have got the army of another country in your country you are a colony, as Germany has been. Without American troops Germany would be free. These troops oppress Germany and allow only politicians who are American stooges to win. Were Germany to attain freedom, as it quickly would if American troops leave, all the present politicans would quickly be thrown out. Nationalists would come to power and you can be sure they are going to reexamine the history of the world wars. There is plenty of easily accessed history to tell a different story, a story quite different from what we have been fed. What will the world do without the monster Hitler?
But one thing is certain. American gas is a Ponzi scheme, not a source of energy. If Europe decides to depend upon this they are going to have some cold winters.
excellent news, Jason, thanks for this one!
according to wiki and the Stockholm Peace Research group, Germany is at #9 on the world list, the first figure after the country is the amount in Billions; the second # is the % of the GDP; and then % of the world share
1 United States 610.0 3.1 35.0
2 China People’s Republic 228.0 1.9 13.0
3 Saudi Arabia 69.4 10 4.0
4 Russia 66.3 4.3 3.8
5 India 63.9 2.5 3.7
6 France 57.8 2.3 3.3
7 United Kingdom 47.2 1.8 2.7
8 Japan 45.4 0.9 2.6
9 Germany 44.3 1.2 2.5
Saudi Arabia is insane and paranoid (and the price of buying all the hardware from the jokers in the USA); Russia is over-burdened; and China is obviously revving up to be a world imperial power
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures
Close Ramstein first then pull out the remaining ground troops. They serve no useful purpose.