North and South Korea have gotten together for their first direct talks in over two years, which is raising hopes of improved relations and reduced tensions after a solid year of war rhetoric. The Trump Administration may have other ideas, however.
Reports from the Wall Street Journal say that a team within the administration continues to debate the possibility of carrying out a unilateral US attack on North Korea just out of the blue, arguing they could get away with a “limited” strike without starting a full-scale war that would kill millions.
While analysts have repeatedly confirmed that it is impossible, the Pentagon has long debated a “bloody nose” attack, that would be enough to show North Korea how serious the US is, without North Korea retaliating. North Korea has affirmed its military’s standard orders are total retaliation irrespective of the size of the first salvo of an attack.
It’s probably not going to sit very well with South Korea either, as the Moon government has been cheering “breakthrough” talks with North Korea ahead of the Winter Olympics, and that seems like it couldn’t possibly be a worse time for the US to launch a sneak attack on their neighbor to the north, particularly a neighbor whose entire arsenal of weaponry is aimed squarely at huge, densely populated South Korean cities.
Time and again, analysts have warned that North Korea’s hair-trigger retaliation, and belief that any US strike would be the start of a war of regime change means that there could be no limited exchanges, and anything would eventually boil down into a full-scale exchange.
The problem with western MSM is that they continuously underestimate the N.K. Sure S.K will be conventionally attacked but also Japan, Guam other US bases and, mainland US, by nukes.
People including Ditz should get that into their heads and accept reality. N.K went to a great deal of hard times and trouble to get the ultimate deterrence since US flattened the country and killed 30% of its population the last time. They won’t go through that again, not without taking US with them they won’t.
I know Keith because in your mind the MSM wants to go to war with North Korea they’re not reporting on the possible casualties any strike big or small or the devastating effects it could have on America or it’s allies. United State senators are holding hearings on Trump’s authority to launch a nuclear strike and all the military hardware we’ve offered our allies are defensive in nature hence Patriot missile defense systems. I know it’s hard for you to see the freedom in an open society where our leaders get 2 terms and aren’t born on magical mountains and are living gods. Keep commenting you make us Neo-cons look sane even to crazy people commenting on this forum. Keep up the good work Keith.
Good one. And who is promoting the God like delusions? Neocons, of course. You are imagining that you know how other societies should live, what kind of political system they should have, what does freedom mean to different societies, and what do social obligations mean to them. If North Korea wants to live as an agricultural society, who are we to object? We need to look at our own trustworthiness in this world, as lies and breaking promises is not such a small offence as it is in our society. Neicons do not posses any moral code, except their God given right to bully ithers into submission. Laws of men or nations do not apply to them. There has not been a single war that neocons did not push hard to get us into.
And what about the term limits in our society? Most congressmen and senators make it their profession. And what about taking the nuclear button away from Trump? Do you think it will be sacer with our bought and paid for senators? So far, Senate or the House — and both Republican and Democrat privatelly owned parties — did NOT raise any objections to Trump’s fire and fury speaches. Not in substance — perhaps inly in style. Neicons would rather have their wars snuck in — using their phoney concern for human rights or fraudulent claims of weapons of mass destruction. Neicons advocate illegal stay in Syria, endless and pointless wars in Afghanistan, murky role in Iraq, even murkier stay in Libya, cheerfull arming of crypto Nazis in Ukraine, and EVERY regime change one can think of. Neocons — or the globalist oligarchy — are for the destruction and undermining of our institutions — ehile always pointing out at the empty shells of our broken political institutions as a proof of our superiority. No, we Americans will remain goid and prosperous inly by being humble in the world, while unashamedly looking sfter our interests. It is good to be nice to one’s neighbor, but first and foremost take care of your home and family. Then you will be capable of being good neighbor and member if the community.
Neocons are opposed to this kind of thinking, as it undermines their elitist view, supremacism. By trying to instill supremacism into nation’s soul, Americans are being coopted by the oligarchy into their own psychopatic version if the reality. So, you can control Trump? So far you are doing a good job —at least you think so. You are pushing for every war, every conflict, every regime change. But Trump crimps your style. By being groresquelly and way over the top proponent of your wishes — it provikes negative reaction aming your own faithfull democratic base. You cannot beat him from the right, and you dare not hint that the militancy is wrong. So, he has you paralysed, unable to cheer publicly your own political agressiveness — making you his accomplice. The last think you wanted is inter-Korean dialogue. Thus, get your institutional loyalists to stir things up.
Blame Trump all you want. But he came in as a wrecking ball — and he is being true to his word. He is giving you and all those you surrounded him with — all your wishes in spades. But be carefull what you wish for — results you may not like at all.
I’m not sure what you were getting at. America isn’t doing anything anymore than anyone else is. America is doing what’s in it’s best interests and in it’s smaller allies best interests. We’re not claiming all the resources in the South China Sea bullying our smaller neighbors for there resources. We’re not using hybrid warfare to create frozen conflicts keeping our smaller neighbors from joining the European Union and NATO. People leave their country to migrate to our country because of the ideals and freedom we take for granted every single day. You see Bianca no one ever said we and I mean America was or is perfect all we’re trying to do is survive in a world where so many people want us to cease to exist it’s not easy being a superpower. It’s not easy leading the free world.
All I can say is how deeply sorry I am. For your type of arrogance is sincere,
not borne out of the desire to deceive or manipulate. But the world is not our playground, and we have no right to tempt fate the way we do. At least some of our would be allies are not dreaming to join us for our goodness, but because tbey are coerced, bribed and are steeped in corruption. Many a threat is coming openly from our embassies and other officials in order to frighten small countries into submission. Do you know hiw does it feel to be on the receiving end of such pressure and threats? No, I suppose that if you do know, you would think differently.
We have soaked 20th century in blood, and have entered the 21st century on the wings of Hubris, and now Nemesis is on the March. It is not anything others will do to us, but our own self-destructive powers are leading us down the path of making wrong choices. Trump is not a coincidence, it is a warning sign, a sign of the nation’s belief in self-redemption, and as the time goes by, an understanding of the abyss that threatens. Our very resorces, our precious youth, all still on the altar of crass militarism, for money and power. Our allies are rather hopefully looking at our economic and moral losss around tha globe, and merely nominally repeating our mantras in order to avoid the wrath of our irrational self. But they are counting the days. We are not protecting those “little” countries from China in the China South Sea issues. They have excellent mechanisms under UNCLOS (UN Cinvention on the Laws of the Sea), to which US is not a signatory. This is why all ASEAN ountries roundly ignored US procured ruling by a Hague based arbitration court. We are the country that is damaging or blocking freedom of trade — to our own detriment. Trump was not coy about it — pointing out the entire regions in conflicts, and the need to extinguish them.
No we are not an ordinary country. We have spread our deadly wings to many parts of the globe. Nobody comes close to us. Believing arrogant neocon view of the world must stop. Today, you can trust any Billy Bob, Trump voter, on understanding of foreign policy. Do not need Foreign Policy journal that excells with lies. Know of whiskey song, Moon of Alabama? A web site bearing its name is a good place for getting facts — especially as they come from men and women serving around the globe. But be prepared to confront your ignorance, to let go of arrogance, and see the world as it really is.
Maybe you should practice what you preach. I’m not the one defending countries where the citizens are manipulated into believing there leaders are Supreme beings or are born on magical mountains and posses special powers. I live in a reality where threats are real and dictators are testing missiles ICBM’s that they plan to use to annihilate my country with. I wish I had time to write a long rant that was seriously flawed and ignored the seriousness of the situations America and it’s allies face on a daily basis but, than I’d be just like you. Someone who can’t fathom that there’s evil in this world someone who makes excuses for the insane supreme leaders that control there populations at all costs. It’s called tunnel vision some people only see what they want to see.
I hope that drivel was satire and that you have sober moments…The US creates mayhem in order to infiltrate and destroy countries who choose their own path…not a forced path designed by the US. Furthermore the Zionist Occupied US Government has no credibility amongst its allies, or close friends which are slowly vacating the Trump insanity machine. The US is a great country because of people, not the government, or any sick narcissist politician. Anyways, your delusional, and in need of reprogramming.
No, America is not doing “what’s in its best interests.”
It would be in America’s best interests to shut down all its foreign bases, bring the troops home, restrict its naval forces to US home waters, cut its military budget by 90%, and start minding its own business.
Any other course than that consists of making regular Americans poorer, making regular Americans less safe, and getting regular Americans killed for the benefit of the American (and global) political class.
China is going to prop up the North Korean government. They will not accept its collapse and another Ukraine on their border.
They present it like it’s some sort of fun game to kill people. “Let’s see what we can get away with.”
Last time I checked it wasn’t America threatening Japan, South Korea,Guam, and even my country America with nuclear destruction. America has had Nukes and has shown great restraint and responsibility in respect to it’s capability. America doesn’t go around threatening our enemies with nuclear annihilation everytime something doesn’t go our way. North Korea put the nuclear option on the table and if America is forced to respond by wiping out NK we have the right and capability to defend our interests and our people and the allies we’ve sworn an oath to defend. If someone pulls out a gun and threatens to shoot you while you’re with your family and you also have a gun are you going to defend yourself and your family our are you going to submit to the psychotic threatening to harm you and your family? It’s that simple.
In order to take away your freedom to post the above and my freedom to answer you without getting arrested and possibly tortured an external enemy has to invade and occupy America. The last time that was tried, our civil war excepted, was in 1812 and that invasion ended in failure. Those are the reasons why I hold that the precious freedoms mentioned above are not threatened by the nations of North Korea or Iran or whatever but potentially only by a home-grown despotic occupier who will consider treasonable what you and I wrote here.
Enslavement is what’s happening in North Korea last time I checked there soldiers were defecting to the South and the last person they returned to us was tortured and returned to America comatose and died shortly upon his return. In America you can criticize, disagree and not support an American presidents agenda and not be killed or worse for it. A mental person is someone who can actually see what’s happening and still denies it ever happened.
Terrible place NK but is it our problem? Why not concentrate on making America a better place and leave the rest of the World to its own devices, kind of like the founding Fathers suggested
North Korea has only threatened the use of nukes if the US attacks. The US(Trump), on the other hand, has threatened NK with “fire and fury” and not as a retaliatory response.
Last time I checked the movie Sony made about North Korea’s dictator was a act of war, the sanctions that got imposed on them were an act of war, the military drills we do with or allies, sovereign nations in the region were acts of war,yet North Korea threatens to Nuke it’s neighbors is constantly shooting missiles into there airspace and in your eyes America and it’s allies are the aggressors. SMH…. Some people can see things with there own eyes and still not believe what they see.Mental….
And what does any of that gibberish have anything to do with what I said?
We test weapons, they test weapons, I don’t see the difference. We overthrow regimes, they don”t oh well there is one!
Last time I checked America is the only country which has used nuclear arms in anger and also, compared with NK, the much more aggressive country as far as actually invading, occupying, and overthrowing legitimate governments. North Korea intelligently constructed nuclear arms in order to protect themselves against invasion as Kim has seen the US invade and overthrow the governments of countries which were convinced to give up nuclear weapons research. In addition, the fact that the USA is pretending to be afraid of a country which has the GDP of Birmingham, Alabama, is hilarious. What can they do to us? Invade California? What have they ever done to us? Now ask yourself, what has the USA done to NK? Carpet bombing, generation-long embargoes.
How convenient for you to forget we fed them when they were starving, we gave them money to prop up there 3rd world economy, we even helped finance a plant for the Koreans to unify and work together so North Korea could have a way to earn hard currency all in exchange for them to freeze not even give up its nuclear ambitions and they re-nigged. They can’t be trusted, the same IAEA agency you’re criticizing America for scrutinizing about the Iran deal are the same ones North Korea shot the cameras off there nuclear depots and acted as if they never agreed to any terms of the deal. You’ll criticize America for non compliance but, give the nutcases in North Korea a pass… Russia signed an agreement to not invade Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine giving up it’s nuclear arsenal how did that work out??? Funny things about FACTS is you don’t get to re-write history and you can’t argue with what really happened. Some people have a hard time with FACTS it’s a Mental condition.
“Russia signed an agreement to not invade Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine giving up it’s nuclear arsenal how did that work out???”
So far so good. Let me know if the Russians ever invade Ukraine.
They didn’t have to invade Crimea they were already there as part of the agreement for Ukraine to give up its nuclear arsenal Russia leased a port in the Crimea that’s how they seized it. As for the region under seige from the Pro Russian rebels and Russian mercenaries, Putin even said it himself Russian servicemen were going on holiday to fight in the Ukraine he called it Novorossyia which means New Russia and as for the sophisticated military hardware like the Russian Buk missile systems I guess those pesky pro Russian rebels are just naturals at using them. I’m just giving you facts Mr. Knapp I know it’s fruitless you’re minds already made up.
There was no “region [of Ukraine] under siege from pro-Russian rebels.” There were new states (the Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics) that seceded from Ukraine and that Russians assisted in self-defense. Once you’ve seceded from a country, you’re no longer part of that country and therefore an incursion, should one take place, is not an incursion of the country you’ve seceded from.
Interesting you should bring up the Buk system. The Ukrainians — and probably the seceded former Ukrainian states — had them before the secession and following war ever began.
North Korea has done exactly what every other declared nuclear power with the exception of the US has done: It has announced that it has nukes and that if attacked it reserves the right to use them.
Far from “great restraint and responsibility,” the US is the ONLY nuclear power to have ever used nukes. It did so twice, in terrorist attacks on Japanese civilians, to show Stalin who was boss (Japan had been offering to surrender for months on the condition that the Emperor not be deposed; because the US wanted to show off its nukes to Stalin, it insisted on unconditional surrender, then didn’t depose the Emperor).
I guess the whole Pearl Harbor thing had nothing to do with the nuclear weapons that were used on an enemy that killed so many brave men and women in America’s military. I guess that whole Pearl Harbor thing was an act of surrendering huh??? Wow Mr. Knapp that’s some seriously crazy talk….
Pearl Harbor was attacked on December 7, 1941.
The Japanese started trying to negotiate a conditional surrender in late 1944.
It wasn’t until August 1945 that the US dropped atomic weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
QED, the use of nuclear weapons wasn’t about winning the war with Japan, or about avenging Pearl Harbor. The war was already won and the US had more than extracted revenge, starting with the Doolittle raids and proceeding through the destruction of Japan’s entire foreign empire and the conquest of one of its home islands, Okinawa.
The purpose of the terrorist attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was to cow Stalin.
I don’t agree with what you’re saying but, I respect your opinion I must say today’s discussions are awesome I love how everyone has their own perspective. We may not all agree but, we all have our viewpoints heard.
Right on point Mr. Knapp! Thank you for being an educated voice, and knowing the real truths about America’s nefarious military culture.
It has been documented that Roosevelt knew in advance of Pearl Harbor, or at least some in his administration…which would leave a pretext for war wide open…have you heard this?
Nothing crazy about what Mr. Knapp is conveying. Do some real homework and you will find that the US destruction of Japan could have been completely avoided, but the US wanted to send a message to Stalin. Murder Inc/ Uncle Sam cares nothing about human life, especially when it seeks to conquer, and own…
Does the Chinese government want the North Korean government to collapse and become another outpost of American hegemony?
I think not
That’s so true and you can’t forget it’s also a former USSR client state which I believe given Russia’s track record of supporting America’s adversaries it would in some form also support North Korea. I honestly believe Trump would use a nuke to save lives which sounds crazy but, has worked in the past.
That’s nuts.
Cowboy, your “honesty” is based on foolish ignorance.
Hello Rosemerry nice to hear from you.
Like it saved lives in Japan? I guess if that is said enough it becomes fact.
Saved American lives.
Like Thomas Knapp told you elsewhere, Japan was ready to surrender. There was no need for a ground invasion.
Like I said I respectfully disagree with that viewpoint, remember America didn’t attack Japan, Japan attacked America. I believe the argument against America on this site in respect to North Korea is if America strikes North Korea they’ll use Nukes on the United States and it’s allies and has every right to do so to defend its country and it’s people and everyone on this site is cool with that but, when it comes to America doing the same thing like they did to Japan all of a sudden America is evil and are doing it out of anger. If that’s not the definition of hypocrisy I don’t know what else to call it.
America didn’t nuke Japan because Japan attacked America. And no one is cool with North Korea nuking anyone. People are pointing out why North Korea wants nukes as a deterence and no one can blame them. Saddam and Qaddafi have been used extensively as examples of why we can’t be trusted. The Iran deal is also a prime example.
The American government/ military industrial complex thrive on constant war for profit, hegemony, and support of the mendacious Zionist agenda that has compromised every single senator and congress person. The US government does NOT support the American people, and will never have the best interest of the American people. Furthermore, America was to blame completely for the conflict with Japan, and did not have to drop atomic bombs. it did so to send a message to the USSR…not the “save American lives lie” I have wasted enough time here…you will never GET IT!
Hasn’t China stated explicitly that they will support NK if it is attacked, but not if it attacks?
What Trump is really mad about right now is S Korea’s disloyalty to America’s agenda. It would be a lot more genuine and less risky to bomb S Korea for this offense. But apparently our leaders are determined to risk the end of human existence if it might underline the point of how serious and important we are.
Imagine headlines reading “Kim team debates limited strike on US”. What would our reaction be? And if they carried out their “bloody nose” attack would we retaliate?
I doubt Trump will launch an attack before the Olympics or during the North Korean winter. No one wants to fight a war in North Korea in the winter.
I expect Trump to attack NK sometime in the spring or summer, well after the Olympics. US companies stand to make a lot of money from any Olympics.
Of course, if Trump really believes that a limited strike would be effective and not start a full-scale war, he could try it before the Olympics. But I doubt it precisely because South Korea would be livid.
OTOH, perhaps Trump wants to force South Korea to take part in the war, given that SK is reluctant to start it, so starting it unilaterally might be how he intends to do that.
It doesn’t really matter whether Trump wants a limited strike or a full-scale invasion. Either way, NK will retaliate and then Trump will have to escalate. So it will end up as full-scale war either way.
Ditz would be better off taking his cue from Raimondo’s excellent column than WSJ propaganda. See: http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2018/01/08/korean-crisis-completely-phony/
“The Trump Administration” is a misnomer. It is not clowns but a complete catastrophe. Nobody learns from past experience, nobody has any idea of human behavior, no suggestion of peace, of negotiations, of any person but the few who could benefit from this madness. At the time of GWBush the “mistakes” were bad enough and have led on to the present via Obama, but the Republicans now (and Trump had no competition for POTUS candidate in that lot) are joined by the neocon Democrats of the Clinton/Obama/Nuland/Kagan persuasion who are frantically anti-Russian regardless of consequences and ignore any facts that anything now could happen and we will all lose.
I agree a fight between America and Russia would produce no winners and since we’d both be severely weakened by the nuclear weapons we used on each other the world would take full advantage chomping on the influence of the world’s former 2 superpowers.
I doubt N Korea is planning a limited response. Trump is a dotard for even talking about this publicly.
Limited strikes will not stay limited.
NK will all-out retaliate and millions will die.
Neocons are drooling for it.
Why are these alleged people not in jail for conspiracy to commit murder and conspiracy to commit crimes against humanity, among other reasons.
It’s too bad South Korea is not a sovereign country, in which case it could make its own peace with the North, possibly reunify, and give the US the boot.
The US is the problem.
The US is the sole reason for the Korean crisis to exist.
But this is typical neocon strategy — just start a war, under whatever pretext, and make it sound small and safe. They know darn well that US will be then committed — media will go into overdrive, screeching will damage ear drums. Wall Street Journal, the war machine alpologist is correct — war advicates are pulling in all their foot soldiers in Congress, inside the administration, Pentagon and elsewhere, to get at least a most tentative “may be” In order to build on that. And build they will. They tried it with Kerry, when he announced a possibility of air strikes on Syria. Knowing full well that public gave an earfull to their representatives in Congress — he had to express the intent to the peasants this way: “It will be an incredibly little bimbing.. “. But common sense prevailed, avoiding direct conflict with Moscow.
Even a discussion of an attack is a reckless move. For one obvious reason — the direct talks between North and South and the popular support for the talks on both sides. And one less obvious, but more deadly — China’s promise to defend North Korea if attacked by US unprovoked. And Russia pretty much echoed the position. They do not wish to see American military action on the three borders — North Korea, China and Russia. But more substantially — the population of South Korea will be irreversibly turned against US. Humiliating their president will not be forgiven — just as many symbolic and sustantive issues are being tackled.
The opening ceremony will include North Korean performers, and athletes. The talks already dealt with families reunification, and issue of security is adressed. There is a strong US national interest involved in making sure talks are successful as any progress can lead to the pacification of the region. Interests of US as a nation in pushing for peace are diametrically oposed to powerful oligarhies, many transnational. Those oligarchies and monopolies are supporting transnational goals — be that Zionism, universal human rights, immigration, etc. Any cause that is advancing global, and diminishing sovereign state interests — will get attention, political, media, “activism”. Even citizenship is being redefined into s higher, more desireable concept of “netizens”. Saudi Arabia’s concept of no nation-states for Moslems, has been for a long time built into Salafism, a Wahhabi brand propagated world wide through Saudi mosques and Salafi centers. Like the one in Boston.
The most troubling state of affairs is the fragmentation of our institutions among powerful special interests and their goals. Our institutions cannot pull together, as the politics is tearing them apart, and many actions taken accross the globe are more related to the feudal interests that happen to control fragments of institutions — then a coherent policy. The best examples are various ambassadors and State Department functionaries. Many of them brazenly conducting Clinton policies — as if nothing has changed. That it contradicts everything Trump says or fhinks is actually happening — matters nothing to them. But it causes all sorts of hedging policies in the countries affected. While Tillerson got around to dismantle some segments of State Department, others are carrying on — as if reporting to somebody else. This fragmentation, along with a monolitic MSM in support of oligarchy based globalism and poorly informed population — are the key ingredient of schizophrenic behavior. If there is a benefit of such untimely war debate — is the need for Souh Korea to know itself, and its national priorities. They must have some skin in the game — as there is a price to pay, going forward or pulling back.
Bianca give it a rest all that explaining and ranting about America’s flawed institutions and the leadership of our country yet we’re not the ones being led by a supreme leader a living God born on a magical mountain, and a guy named Putin who’s about to win a 4th 6 year term as there president only because he did 2 terms as there Prime Minister after his second term as Russia’s president. So please spare me the system is rigged talk and save it for the Iranians, North Koreans and those poor Russians.I’m out…
I do not understand how Israel and AIPAC are allowing this discussion. This will eliminate Iran action if it occur. Therefore it is not real and simply more bluster from Trump. It was so nice during the holidays not to be hearing this crap from the President.
Limited strike and get away with North Korea?
Ignorance has limits.
One strike and you get yourself thousands missile responds. It is so obvious to predict that,but, not if you are Trump. Even speculation of this we should have sleepless nights,then again, not if you are Americans.