Secretary of State John Kerry is rushing back to Israel after his claims of major progress in the peace talks were dismissed, and both sides rejected it, and the Palestinians warned Kerry’s proposals risked turning the talks into a “total failure.”
The total lack of progress in the talks is something both Israel and the Palestinians can agree on, and one Palestinian official noted it was “impossible to understand” Kerry’s optimism when both sides had rejected his proposals.
Though there is said to have been some “common ground” between Israel and the US on pushing an interim “framework” agreement on the Palestinians, this is something the Palestinians have repeatedly rejected, insisting they want to talk a final deal on statehood and not just continue the endless “process” for its own sake.
The US has been trying to push the Palestinians into accepting terms they’ve long insisted are unacceptable, but is just fueling Palestinian pessimism that they’re never going to result in an actual statehood deal.
Peace Process = Stalling Process = Slow motion Israeli Eradication of Native Non-Jews
Very slow motion indeed, given that the Arab population is not only increasing, but growing faster than the Jewish population.
Thomas,
Just look at the map, with ever-increasing illegal Israeli settlements, not that they're being illegal matters to the US, Russia, China and Europeans. This conflict is about land, and that growing Arab population you refer to just means that the Palestinians are being further squeezed and disenfranchised.
die Wahrheit zählt,
I didn't say that the Palestinian Jews, aka "Israelis," are being all sweetness and light to the Palestinian Arabs.
I agree that the Palestinian Arabs are being squeezed and disenfranchised, including by, but not limited to, the Israeli squats (they're not "settlements" — the land was already "settled," now it's just being stolen).
I just noted that the Palestinian Jews are not "eradicating" the Palestinian Arabs.
There's a difference.
Thomas,
Whilst your reference to 'Palestinian Jews' is certainly another and somewhat novel way to look at it, and I agree with your reference to the land being stolen, because that's exactly what's happening, the manner in which it's being done and the excuses used for it (e.g. re-establishing Jewish heritage of 2000 years ago, and others) clearly reveal ethnic cleansing, albeit not eradication in the sense of the whole Palestinian Arab population being slaughtered or forcibly being removed in 1 action. There can be no doubt as to what the the goal of Israeli policy is, hence my reference to the map.
die Wahrheit zählt,
Well, if "ethnic cleansing" is what they're up to, they're not doing a very good job of it. Usually when a population is being "ethnically cleansed," it decreases in size in a given area.
The Palestinian Arab population is growing faster than the Jewish Palestinian (aka "Israeli") population, particularly in Gaza and the West Bank.
It's sort of like if at the end of the Holocaust, the Jewish population in Germany and Eastern Europe had grown by six million instead decreasing by six million.
That doesn't justify Israel's actions or make Zionism correct, but words mean things. Burglary is not murder. Embezzlement isn't kidnapping. And if you're going to make accusations against the Israelis, it serves your cause better to make accurate accusations than it does to make demonstrably and obviously false accusations.
As far as the terms "Palestinian Jews" is concerned, 73% of Israel's Jewish population was born in Palestine — unlike, for example, "Palestinian" Yasser Arafat, who was from Cairo.
Thomas,
I refute the accusation of making false accusations, there's nothing false about the demolition of Palestinian homes, the measures against the Bedouin in the Negev, the expansion of illegal Israeli settlements, the "settler only" roads, the "separation" wall, the appropriation of water resources, the destruction of olive groves, the brutal occupation and denial of rights. It may not be eradication, but it is ethnic cleansing through the oppression of the native Arab population, making their life as unbearable and miserable as possible.
You're splitting hairs, and Mark Green's comments are far more to the point.
They’d like to move faster, Thomas. Really. But “the whole world is watching”. That’s the problem for the Zionists: how to appear ‘democratic’ when racism and fascism are what they’re really all about. It’s a major P.R. dilemma for the Zions.
In the meantime, the leaders of the Jewish State are making certain that the Misery Index is on HIGH in the Occupied Territories. [One overtly anti-semitic sentence deleted — normally one sentence would have been enough to get the whole comment 86ed, but it doesn’t seem right to do that since the comment is in personal response to me – TLK]
Actually, the Jewish people are the natives. They've been there for 4,000 years.
So they're "native", even though a lot of them originate from Brooklyn, Manhattan, Russia, eastern Europe etc.
73% of Israel's current population was born in Palestine. While not all of the rest can trace their blood ancestry (as opposed to merely their religious heritage) to the area, a lot of them can.
The claim that they've been there for 4000 years does not refer to the vast proportion of Israel's Jewish population, as that population is largely derived from immigration, especially since 1945. That immigration involved the ethnic cleansing of thousands of Palestinian Arabs, who today are scattered in camps across the Middle East or have to endure a brutal occupation in the West Bank or live under siege in Gaza. The Jews were not the only inhabitants of the Palestine of thousands of years ago. To suggest that their presence there 4000 years ago justifies the ongoing oppression of the native Palestinian Arabs, which is what in effect is happening, is an excuse used by many illegal Israeli settlers and indeed the Israeli government.
die Wahrheit zählt,
Nice try at trying to turn my original argument (that's what going on isn't "eradication") into a completely different argument (that Jewish presence 4000 years ago justifies the ongoing oppression of the native Palestinian Arabs) so that you can more easily refute it, but no cigar.
I'm happy to stipulate to the evil of the "settlements," of the ongoing occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, etc. I'm also happy to stipulate to the claim that there were injustices involved in the creation of Israel, and to at least leave open for argument the claim that the creation of Israel was unjustifiable in its entirety.
On the other hand, I'm not willing to stipulate that the continued imprisonment of Palestinian Arabs in camps operated by regimes other than Israel's is the fault of anyone but the regimes operating those camps. If those other regimes really supported the Palestinian Arabs, they could easily open the gates to those camps, offer the Palestinians dual citizenship until such time as the situation in Palestine is resolved in a manner satisfactory to enable their return, and then support their aims to return. The reason Palestinian Arabs languish in camps in other Arab countries is that those regimes maintain those camps for anti-Israeli propaganda purposes AT THE EXPENSE of the Palestinian Arabs living in them.
Nor am I willing to stipulate that if Population A is not just growing, but is actually growing faster than Population B, that Population B is "eradicating" Population A. The reason I'm not willing to stipulate to that is that it's contrary to the clear meaning of the word.
die Wahrheit zählt,
Nice try at trying to turn my original argument (that what's going on isn't "eradication") into a completely different argument (that Jewish presence 4000 years ago justifies the ongoing oppression of the native Palestinian Arabs) so that you can more easily refute it, but no cigar.
I'm happy to stipulate to the evil of the "settlements," of the ongoing occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, etc. I'm also happy to stipulate to the claim that there were injustices involved in the creation of Israel, and to at least leave open for argument the claim that the creation of Israel was unjustifiable in its entirety.
On the other hand, I'm not willing to stipulate that the continued imprisonment of Palestinian Arabs in camps operated by regimes other than Israel's is the fault of anyone but the regimes operating those camps. If those other regimes really supported the Palestinian Arabs, they could easily open the gates to those camps, offer the Palestinians dual citizenship until such time as the situation in Palestine is resolved in a manner satisfactory to enable their return, and then support their aims to return. The reason Palestinian Arabs languish in camps in other Arab countries is that those regimes maintain those camps for anti-Israeli propaganda purposes AT THE EXPENSE of the Palestinian Arabs living in them.
Nor am I willing to stipulate that if Population A is not just growing, but is actually growing faster than Population B, that Population B is "eradicating" Population A. The reason I'm not willing to stipulate to that is that it's contrary to the clear meaning of the word.
Thomas,
If you read back on my comments you'll see that I agreed that there is no 'eradication', but if you again look at the map, you'll see that the Palestinian Arabs 'have' about 20%-22% of historic Palestine, and I contend that Israeli policy in all it's aspects has as it's purpose the full control of all of Palestine. Join all the dots of Israeli activities and one can only come to this conclusion. That the Palestinian population is increasing at a faster rate than the Israeli doesn't mean anything in terms of lessening the burden of a population under occupation. This has more to do with traditional values of an Arab population in contrast to the 'westernized' values of a Jewish population. Israel welcomes Jewish immigration, does it also welcome Arab, Christian or African immigration? I think your "Population A/B, Eradication" scenario is a 'red herring'.
You're incorrect in stating that I tried to 'turn' your original argument, as one of the justifications put forward to justify the stealing of Arab land today is the presence of Jews in that part of the world 2000 – 4000 years ago, and this aspect was introduced by another contributor!
The Palestinians scattered in camps across the Middle East has it's origins mainly in the ethnic cleansing of 1948, but I agree to a large extent with your characterization of the regimes of various Arab countries. These regimes have failed miserably over recent decades, not only to the Palestinians wherever they may be, but also to their own populations, and that's a situation which suits Israel admirably.
we knew they could agree on something
if I were the Palestinians
I'd demand no talks until the US is out….
the US has enabled israel this whole time