Shock over the crash of Malaysia Airlines MH17 in eastern Ukraine, and speculation about whether it was shot down, has morphed into outright hysteria, not so much about the 298 people who died on board, but about who was responsible.
There is a shocking amount of speculation at this point, and a lot of it is based on incredibly flimsy evidence, with the assorted players in the region all crossing their fingers and hoping the blame eventually falls on someone convenient for them.
The latest “smoking gun” out of Ukraine’s SBU spy agency is a video purporting to feature an intercepted call of rebels discussing the shoot-down. While everyone is saying the “authenticity could not be verified,” the doubts seem even bigger than that, with the primary basis of the video having a creation time-stamp suggesting it was created a day before MH17 was even shot down.
The time-stamp error isn’t proof either way, but adds further questions to the authenticity of the video, and adds to speculation that it may well have been a “doctored” version of an intercept related to the downing of Ukrainian military transport planes recently, which the rebels were confirmed to have done, and which wouldn’t be nearly as controversial as shooting down a civilian airliner.
The Obama Administration continues to assert a “preliminary assessment” of a shoot-down, but even that seems to be speculative, as what evidence they provided Congressional intelligence committee members at a briefing yesterday left the likes of Saxby Chambliss (R – GA) unclear on whether a missile was even involved, or if the plane just coincidentally crashed.
US officials are also claiming to be in the process of gathering evidence that Ukrainian rebels received training in Russia on the operation of vehicle-based anti-aircraft missiles, a type of weapon they were never even accused of having until yesterday’s crash. The previous helicopter and warplane shoot-downs have all been with the easy-to-use shoulder-fired variety.
Ukraine has supplied a further video claiming to show a 9k37 vehicle with a “missing” missile in rebel possession, and en route to Russia. The authenticity of this is similarly in doubt, and indeed the ability of the rebels to even operate such a complex vehicle is unclear.
The big problem is that the plane crashed in a warzone, and evidence isn’t readily obtainable so far, though the Ukrainian rebels active in the area insist that they have already allowed OSCE and Ukrainian investigators onto the site to investigate, and would allow other international groups access to the site.
The fate of the black boxes is also up in the air, as the rebels reported having recovered them and that they were being sent to Moscow, though the Russian Foreign Ministry insists they don’t intend to take possession of them, and that it is up to the International Civil Aviation Organization to analyze the recorders themselves.
Right now, everyone is denying responsibility for the shoot-down, and the desperate array of dubious evidence pointing in a million different directions makes it impossible to know the truth. That investigators from Ukraine et al. seem focused primarily in shifting the blame to a politically convenient target only adds to the difficulty of getting an honest assessment of the incident.
There are two Major Problems for me blaming this on the Rebels:
[1] Why was that plane even flying in that war Zone? Would a US plane do that stupid?
[2] Isn't that contries government which Claims that area for itself also responsible
for EVERYTHING what happens there! They shouldn't have started a war against
their VERY OWN People, if they really think that it is.
For me that government in the Ukraine is just a bunch of common criminals
and basically inable to givern a people.
Do a search for "victoria nuland ukraine 5 billion" . . . .
Note the Chevron symbol in the background of the video.
The separatists did it. Sure they did, you just keep believin' that! And Saddam Hussein had WMD just prior to the 2003 invasion. And Syria used poison gas on the rebels. And ….
….and north vietnamese boats attacked US navy ships in the Tonkin Gulf and Gaddafis troops were taking viagra to be able to better rape Libyan women. And on and on and on.
Considering all the blatant lies coming out of the western media, who would in their right minds believe them anymore?
I'm so absolutely sure there was this much outrage and denunciation in the media when the US Navy shot down the Iranian airliner, right?
Not only was there no outcries of rage in that case BUT the Captain of the American Warship that downed the Iranian Civil Jetliner was given the American Medal Of Honour for his murderous action.
Nope. Won the "Legion of Merit" however it is considered a "neck medal" which is worn like the "Medal of Honor" and is an American version of the chivalric orders they handed out like candy in decadent European empires. It may be that he got it under a Bush, because he is a Texan and was hot to fight Iran…Commander Wiiliam C. Rogers, III, that is. He said even though the Iranian jetliner squawked it was a passenger plane, he just didn't believe it. I think those who liked seeing Iranians murdered took him at his word. "You know, you go with your hunch and you shoot from the hip, and well, what if it hadda been aimed at the Vincennes." This is what passes for rationality in certain circles.
Indeed, recent history shows us even just "tensions" and a professional, modern, trained navy, the leading in the world, still downs airliners by what looked like a mistake. With that in mind, it's hard for me to understand why airliners fly at all above actual warzones where factions are known to have surface-to-air missiles with this range. And why it would by any more "evil" for rebels or even Russia to have made this similar mistake. Also it's quite possible the responsible group was "rogue" somewhat and that opens the door to even more theories about who was actually in charge of the that operation called "shooting down everything that moves over us" with this weapon. I haven't seen any evidence the rebels knew the operators that well, they just assumed it was one of "theirs" considering location and the attempts they were making to down a transport plane (again).
Looks like the brilliant Obama & his clever State Department couldn't foresee the consequences of malicious mischief & regime-change in Ukraine. Now 300 innocent civilians are dead. Better blame the Bear.
that is…if the act was not a calculated security op, i.e. shooting down an airliner over the rebel-held territory to try to get EU to get on Putin's case. I also do not dismiss the possibility bandied around in Russia, that it was an assassination attempt on Putin returning from South America, whose plane was in the air in the vicinity of the downed jet. The cover would have been perfect. If worse came to worse it was the Ukrainians who did it. Incidentally, anyone has noticed the formation of the BRICS development bank, signed in Brazil by Putin earlier this week: http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economi…
This may have enormous consequences for the world economy and represents a major victory for Putin who has been pushing the Chinese for years to get into the business of an alternative monetary system free of the US dollar.
What a convenient distraction from the racist Israeli massacres of Palestinians this story is.
Sorry, Obama- once again, I'm inclined to take Putin's word over yours. When Putin decides to stab you in the back, he'll draw a picture of it and mail it to you and then knock on your door when he comes to stab you in the back- he makes no bones about his plans and he carries them through. That's quite different from you, Obama, whose entire election and administration is built with lies upon half-truths upon rumors and misinformation.
Just compare the US response to the shoot down of the Iran Air plane in 1988. For several days the US govt lied about what happened and why claiming that the plane was a fast moving target descending towards the Vincennes in intl waters. It was a slow moving target ascending away from Vincennes which was several miles inside Iranian territorial waters. Far from calling this a crime and swiftly bringing the the perpetrators to justice the captain of Vincennes was given a medal and commended for his ” coolness under fire”!! After finally admitting what happened the US president angrily said “I’ve apologised enough already”
It is the work done by Ukrainian Neo fascism, Berzinski, chevron and IMF wants for Russian speaking people to leave the southern and eastern Ukraine, otherwise IMF and chevron and Berzinski idea is going to be a bust. This is not the Ukrainian war, this is Victoria Nuland, IMF, chevron and Barack Hussein war because these people are against anything that USG/corporation cannot profit from, the political, cultural and economic cooperation between Russia, China, Brazil, Venezuela, India, South Africa and many other South American countries is just about to start which means the end of USG/corporations monopoly in the world, Barack Hussein Obama and his obligation toward vulture capitalism needs to create wars in Ukraine, where the USG state department had to spend 5 billion dollars of the Americans working men and women for Neo fascism in Ukraine to take shape, 500 million dollars for ISIS and yet another $500 million for other savages and barbarians to be created in Syria.
Barack Hussein Obama presidency have managed to create disastrous consequences for the people in Middle East and Ukraine, but this has been the culture of vulture capitalism for a long time, from Bill Clinton and Madeline Albright to Bush fascism regime and Paul Wolfowitz to Berzinski, Victoria Nuland and Barack Hussein Obama. But, the American people haven't seen nothing yet, a bigger war knocking at the Americans people door, and her name is Hillary Clinton.
Only one of the three Players are capable of this act of wanton disregard of human life.
False flag event. And very obviously so.
That alleged intercepted call surfaced suspiciously quickly, too.
That's what I was thinking too!
Another thing that makes me wonder. If Russia and the rebels are involve as shown by the intercepted call evidence……why are they using an "open" line not an "encrypted" line
Not as quickly as the neocon accusations against Russia, though. They surfaced about an hour after the crash..
There is no evidence yet as to what happened but I would ask the question, was there any
USA/CIA drones within 5 miles of the explosion.
I believe this was a false flag and that a drone was used.
Surprisingly, not one person saw any rocket flying upward from the ground anywhere
in the Ukraine…doesn't that in itself give a person pause.
The USA is definitely involved and their purpose is to create more discord in the Ukraine and to blame Russia for it. This is the reason the USA is sending so many "investigators" while the National
Transport is sending only one. Makes it easier for the UDSA to plant evidence and to fabricate
more evidence to blame Russia and the Freedom fighters.
Dr Bob
Professor/International Law
I believe this was a false flag and that a drone was used.
That's the problem with freestyle speculation. In reality, drones are not exactly useful in air-to-air interceptions. Frankly, if you want to go to that level of conspiracy, it is easier to blame a stealth fighter. The single operational F-22 maybe?
Surprisingly, not one person saw any rocket flying upward from the ground anywhere
in the Ukraine…doesn't that in itself give a person pause.
No. It is already amazing that someone actually captured the crash on YouTube with most persons probably hunkering in their homes because "lolshooting" and there is no water or electricity. How many are scanning the horizon with binoculars looking for missile smoke trails?
Most likely is still part-time warriors playing monkey with a weapon they don't know how to use properly and with no transponder identification.
Bob Latiff, a former US weapons developer for the air force and the CIA and now a professor at
Notre Dame University, said he leaned towards a belief that it was a case of mistaken identity on the
part of those who pressed the button.
"A radar return from an airplane like this would look very similar to that from a cargo plane, as was
initially claimed by the separatists. If radar was all they were using, that is a shame," he said. "All
airliners emit identification signals which identify the aircraft and provide other information like
altitude and speed. They also operate on known communications frequencies. It doesn't sound like
the separatists were using any of this.
"My guess is the system's radar saw a return from a big 'cargo' plane flying at 30,000 ft or so and
either automatically fired, or some aggressive, itchy operator fired, not wanting to miss an opportunity."
Latiff said that if they had only one radar, as Ukrainian officials suggest, it would have been pointed
at the target. A second, rotating one would normally have been part of a battery to pick up other
planes in the immediate vicinity, but he said even that would not have established whether it was a
commercial plane and there would normally have been communications equipment to pick up
signals showing the plane was non-military.
The blame of it was Russia that supplied the Rebels with the missile system……………….
What utter rubbish that is and so easy to disprove…………..
The Ukraine Airforce has an order of battle, that means effectively an equipment and manpower list, in that list you will find this UNIT………
156th Anti-Aircraft Artillery regiment (Donetsk and Luhansk oblast. Buk-M1)
that means the Missile system was sitting at an airfield or in an arsenal, purchased by the Ukraine Government, we have also seen the comment that the weapon was stolen both before the incident and after the incident!
Stolen from where? Well depending on who you are Liberated for use by the new Republic, or removed from the Arsenal of the Former Ukraine Government, we should also remember that these people were NOT given the opportunity to vote in the election as they had already voted to secede!
Malaysian Airlines have stated there was NO RISK in overflying the region, despite what has been said, the leaders of the Donetsk Oblast had specifically announced it was a no fly zone and had actively been shooting down Aircraft in the region! It was well known that the Eastern Ukrainians had the weapon so there was a risk, Malaysian Airlines thought it was an acceptable risk, obviously they got their risk assessment wrong!
" had actively been shooting down Aircraft in the region! "
The separatist have shot down attack planes (which are shelling civilians in the east) that fly some 3 times lower than this passenger plane at ~10 km (33,000 feet IIRC). They did not possess the weaponry to take down passenger planes at that height, according to *their* reports.
Can we please have the answers to these ten questions posed by the Russians. http://rt.com/news/173976-mh17-crash-questions-uk…
As it is the basics appear clear.
The Kiev fascists moved buk systems to Donesk just days before the attack.
Those systems were switched on at the time of the downing.
The Ukrainian air traffic controllers directed the flight over Donesk and lower to make it more vulnerable to attack.
All records of the air controllers contact with the plane have now been declared secret.
There is but one conclusion.
That the plane was deliberately enticed into the war zone and destroyed.
That is was no accident but a premeditated act of mass murder and even war by the NATO backed terrorist regime in Kiev
Fault the logic?
An obvious and poorly executed false flag.
Blatant.
When asking who benefits it's always good to separate out the before and after. After the crash the west and the Ukraine government will try to capitalize on the crash and use it to push harder against the rebels and against Russia. This is independent of what happened before.
Before the crash: I think it's likely that the pro russia rebels blundered.
I think Russia at least should be given a way out that respects their main concerns and this event will only be used to push in the wrong direction.
One thing is for sure – the decision to try to shoot down a large plane flying at 32,000 some feet and cruising at 500 mph is not made at the "platoon" level; it has to be done at the "division or up" level. Shoulder launched rockets guided by wire or infrared radiation from the target just won't work; it takes visual or radar guidance plus tremendous rocket power to travel 6 miles up. Only an intact military command can pull something like this off. To me, it reduces the list of suspects to the Ukrainian (Kiev) Army, the Russian Army or some yet undisclosed NATO power. I'd bet on the first suspect.
The U.S. couldn't determine whether a missile shot down TWA 800 and they had most of the debris from that one. So how can anyone believe anything said about this one?
It is possible that
MH-17 was DELIBERATELY guided into harm's way
in the hope that the Donetsk forces would ACCIDENTALLY (mistakenly) shoot it down.
Do we have any IT experts in the house?
The author of the post says, "The time-stamp error isn’t proof either way," without elaboration. These two videos allege, however, that it is irrefutable proof that the video with the supposedly damn conversations was created the day before the plane was shot down.
Where is the plane, crew and passengers of flight MH-370? Why has absolutely no physical evidence been found, not even flotsam in the sea? Malaysia Airlines flight MH-370 and flight 17 are both Boeing model 777-200ER aircraft.
Since the aircraft and passengers of flight MH-370 are still missing from four months ago, it is possible and certainly diabolical for a well known agency of a western rogue government (i.e., CIA) to have in fact planned this to happen. The proof will be in a forensic examination of the human remains from flight 17 and verify: circumstances of their death, time of death, types of drugs found in the victims' blood chemistry, visible and documented skin aberrations (e.g., moles, scars, tattoos, etc.) and other evidence that can be used to uniquely identify them and compare the results to the passengers from flight MH-370.
Let's hope the families of flight MH-370 and flight 17 are able to verify their loved ones who perished in these ghastly incidents.
There's no sign of hysteria here in Europe. People calmly reason that no one other than the essentailly redneck rebels would have been so stupid as to think that a plane flying that high was anything other than an airliner in transit. The US neocons might be hysterical is understannable. For them, this is the worst case scenario. Their proteges have done about the stupidest thing they could have done. The chances are that the redneck rebels didn't realise what a powerful had been given to them and they aimed at the airliner for a laugh. I doubt if they're laughing now!
what on earth are you talking about
It's at a time like this when Antiwar.com's credentials as an antiwar site are tested. Those of us who were appalled by the nazi- not neo-nazi, those were real nazi- coup in Ukraine should not leap to unconditionally side with whoever emerges on the other side of the war. Both sides can be wrong. Both sides can and in fact are likely to be populated by thugs and murderers, because that is the nature of war, and a main reason why Antiwar exists: not to take sides, but to oppose both sides that make war.
This is a test for you, Jason: the evidence that the rebels fired this missile isn't weak. It's massive. Arguing that it is not is falling into the trap of taking a side and then dealing with the cognitive dissonance of having to recognize a crime by the side in which you are now emotionally invested.
It's very much like finding a side to back in the Stalin-Hitler war. It didn't pay then and it doesn't pay now to get too close to the lesser of evils.
The lesson is this: don't take sides. They can't both be right. but they can both be wrong.