In the second NATO shooting incident in a little over 24 hours in the Garmsir District of Afghanistan’s restive Helmand Province, US troops opened fire on a crowd of civilian protesters on Wednesday, wounding five.
NATO explained that US Marines went out to direct an anti-NATO protest in Garmsir and when the “civilians in the crowd disregarded instructions,” the troops opened fire on the crowd. US Lt. Col. Todd Breasseale shrugged off the civilian casualties, insisting “things like this happen.”
Ironically the civilians at the Wednesday rally, estimated at between 200 and 400 strong by the NATO forces, were protesting against a Tuesday incident, in which NATO forces opened fire on civilians at a Tuesday protest, killing 13 people and wounding several others.
NATO has denied the Tuesday incident, but confirmed the Wednesday incident. It insists the Tuesday shootings are “under investigation” while the Wednesday shootings involved appropriate escalation against unarmed civilians.
Though both NATO and the United Nations insist the Taliban actually killed somewhat more civilians in 2009 than NATO did, the high profile NATO shootings continue to do considerable damage to the alliance’s reputation.
Wow, I don't think the Taliban could even stage anything better than the last couple days. Keep in mind almost none of the troop increase has arrived yet, that's still going to take months. Even if random "incidents" like this are rare, the more troops you have, the more they will happen. Eventually there will be something like an Afghan My Lai. Then maybe there will be an Afghan Tet Offensive (I realize in Vietnam, this happened in the opposite order.)
People forget that the Tet Offensive wasn't actually a military victory. The Vietnamese lost the battle. But they mobilized so extensively, and caused so many US casualties, that US public opinion changed forever. That was one of the biggest events that led to the end of the war. No offense to the protestors, but it wasn't you who ended the war.
Well, Chris, no offense to you, but you're full of it. Your revisionist view of the Viet Nam protest movement and its effect on public opinion is naive, shallow, and porous.
I agree with you that the Tet Offensive was a pivotal event in the war, but without the context created by war protestors it would have had little effect. Viet Nam would have looked like the Iraq invasion/occupation to America if protesters hadn't been willing to get into the streets by the thousands and keep it up front. The anti-war, anti-draft movement created an atmosphere at home where people were much more aware of what was happening than we are today.
Viet Nam was the first and last war that the US will allow to be protested on such a scale. Any attempt to recreate those protests today would be futile. First, ending the draft that we fought for so bitterly has turned out to be a free pass for the government to send troops anywhere with total disregard for what happens to them. After all, they volunteered, so they're just meat now. Second, the US has become a police state since those days. We get little hints of it now and again, but if anyone tried to organize large scale protests against the war(s) they would be shut down in a big hurry. Domestic spying is a fine art now compared to Nixon's day, and there are crowd control tools that make fire hoses look like, well… fire hoses.
The war protest movement caused LBJ to not seek a second term, opening the door for Nixon who promised to end the war by "Vietnamizing" it. The plan was to make the locals fill the roles that the US military were doing. (Sound familiar?) The war protest movement made Viet Nam Nixon's war due to large scale bombing campaigns against civilian targets in North Viet Nam. Nixon's reaction to the war protesters became his downfall (see Watergate, Pentagon Papers, Daniel Ellsberg, etc.)
I notice that you have a Canadian flag on your post. Are you an American transplant who moved to Canada to avoid the draft? If so, I don't blame you, but please don't short-change those of us who stayed home and fought their draft boards and the police in the streets of America.
I didn't meant to suggest the protesters weren't doing the right thing and that I don't appreciate their efforts. But I believe history shows that it wasn't the protestors that ended the war. More people protested against Iraq before the war than ever protested during Vietnam, but that war still happened. The US military became warn out and on the verge of collapse during Vietnam. This is according to the generals themselves. The US could not have continued the war, and this is one of the reasons they moved towards withdrawal. Without the strong resistance of the Vietnamese, it never would have got to that point. I do agree the draft was a significant factor. Many people in the military themselves were rebelling and often refusing to follow orders (you even had "fragging" where soldiers would decide they didn't like the orders their CO was giving, so they'd just shoot them, avoid combat, and make up a story.)
I'm not, and never had been, an American. 🙂
First off, lucky you.
However, continuing wars beyond their expiration date has never been a problem for the US.
I could have walked into Ontario and dusted the crap of the US militaristic BS off my feet, so to speak, at any time during my draft age. 40 years past, I truly wish I had done it. I have Canadian friends who tell me it hasn't been all roses, but if I lived there I could at least wake up each morning, open a newspaper, and not worry about how many civilians my country has killed in another senseless, unproductive attack on the human condition.
chris you are wrong we won every major battle durnig tet i was there ask any other nam vet protesters lost that war not us if we would have kept the bombing up in the north 1 more month they would have gave up read any thing about tet and you will see
Ah, I didn't say the Vietnamese won Tet. They lost, but they showed they could organize and mobilize vast forces and that the US could not quickly and easily win the war. That had a major impact on US government thinking (and on the public.)
Are you truly suggesting the US should have kept fighting and bombed a few million more people into their graves? If so, you are a very bad and evil person.
Agree 100%. Viet Nam was never the United State's country to win/lose/draw or set foot in. We were still heady from our "victory" of WWII and pouting for a fight after getting our asses kicked in Korea. Back then the JBS creeps were at the peak of their influence.
I hope and PRAY (and I'm not even a prayin' kind of guy) that the US will somehow snap out of the notion that we have to be the dominant world player and that if the rest of the world doesn't somehow show us the love for the nu-ke-ler umbrella we're just going to have to bomb them into sawdust. Jezus, I wish I could make that so. Maybe if that happened sites like this could become obsolete.
I worked for Steve Socha here on Martha's Vineyard three or four years ago. He was a tall lean handsome guy, Jewish and a son of a family decimated by hitler's final solution. Most of his family perished one way or another in that war and it's ancillary actions.. He was exuberant, optimistic and he loved America…. But when 911 happened, and the wars started, he was troubled…. When the Patriot act was enacted as the wars raged, he became leery, pensive and seemed piped. When the torture photos and info started to leak and BE leaked and the economy began to tank, he started to withdraw…. He seemed to always be depressed and disconsolate… He said that he was saddened to see that the bush americans were little different than the nazis, and just as murderous….. He was always saying that "they" [meaning the bush administration] were willing to kill other peoples children to make money…. He grew more and more despondent, and withdrawn…. In an attempt to boost his spirits, he took a trip to Paris, just as we were completing an important job. He ate his meals there in four star restaurants and stayed in similar hotels.. He was bleeding money by this point and his acrid
attitude was beginning to affect his business.. He sold out here at a loss and went back to the Water Gap area where he had grown up.. His Quansoo house was gone, he was broke and he had his wife working to support the two of them on the rented farm outside of Philadelphia….. I called him once, he told me he was drinking too much.. but he hoped to cut down and get a job at Home Depot… I never spoke to him again… He was found dead in the morning two weeks later on the sofa where he was watching TV the night before. His two year old grand daughter will never get to know him……. The wars and the wanton disregard for the laws of war and the rule of law is what killed him…. He is another victim of 911 and those wars..and the criminal, mindless profit driven response. He is another victim of those willing to kill other peoples children for their personal gain…
I retired from the Air Guard in 2004. I needed to stay in till 2006 for a full retirement, but I just could not stand to be a part of the killing machine that invaded Iraq in a war of aggression. We used to get lectures about "why we fight" and were told of the awful things the KGB did to prisoners. Seems our CIA just copied them. Once more the Avenging Angel has become the Devil she set out to destroy. We have no business having US troops anywhere overseas. BTW I was near Hue during Tet '68, flew on a Chinook delivering 106 recoilless rifle rounds into the Citadel there, helped relieve the Marines at Khe Sahn, and went in to the "valley of death" the A Shau in April '68. Funny if Lt. Calley had called in an airstrike, he could have retired as a Colonel. Happened for sure in near there, I mean a air strike on a village. We flew by a village of about 300 people and all I saw was people walking the roads, working in the paddies. 30 minutes later we went by again, and it was just big bomb craters.
this is how the USA is making sure that they will never run out of Terrorists to shoot at, by alienating the masses. i must say, they are doing an excellent job.
So Kent State happens yet again, but because brown people died instead of American students it'll reach not even an iota of the same state of controversy.
Good point.
We won't hear anything about it stateside unless we look for it here or other sites like it.
Americans (as a species) live in a world of which we only can learn what the government wants us to learn about. By carefully metering what we "know", it's easier for them to push stereotypes. Caricatures, really.
There was a great book segment on Alternet the other day; Chris Hedges has a book titled Empire of Illusion; hey, it's still up. He explains among other things why pro wrasslin' works. Check it out; http://www.alternet.org/media/145152/empire_of_il…
His thesis is that a culture that cannot distinguish between illusion and reality dies. I believe him.
Just showing the natives the strengths and values of American Civilization! Clearly the US Marines will wean the Pushtuns from their foolish allegiance to the wicked Taliban. Do we live in a wonderful country or what?
Anyone still for "supporting the troops"?
yes donna me the war no the troops yes
can some one of Intelligence,please and thank you, explain why NATo can not mind it's own business and affairs. If it's killing and plundering for cheap oil and drugs,why not admit it like good christians and while on combat, fly the jolly roger flag.
here is photos of interest-sure would please Merkel/Sourkozy and company of pirates {:^/
http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&source=h…
The CIA promised to get “revenge” for the bombing that killed their agents. The US military is still getting their revenge for having to spend their adult lives in Afghanistan killing civilians for US corporate interests.
This is why when we get troops hired to police us . our state govoners should insist on policing us with our own National guards . If we get foreign troops policing us ? this could happend to us here , Foreign troops could be Texans policing New Yorkers or visa versa . In Russia the troops refused to shoot their people . Russian troops did not refuse to shoot revolting hungarians in 1956 . Govornments know this and they will try to get troops that will keep them in power . We need state laws right now to adress this problem that could occur in the future . If We mention this our politicians just laugh at us , and say this is america and make fun of us . Nobody want to let foreigners walk around their country with guns giving orders and shooting .
Is this where I post that's not censored?
Winning those hearts and minds.