Alongside Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu at the White House, President Trump said Palestinians should be removed from Gaza on a “permanent” basis.
“You look over the decades, it’s all death in Gaza. This has been happening for years, it’s all death. If we can get a beautiful area to resettle people permanently in nice homes where they can be happy and not be shot and not be killed,” Trump told reporters.
Trump’s repeated calls to “clean out” Palestinians from Gaza have raised fears that the US may support the ethnic cleansing of the territory, the ideal outcome for the Israeli government. Despite very strong opposition from Egypt, Jordan, and other Arab states, Trump has continued to double down on the idea.

Trump said at the White House that he believes Palestinians can be resettled in “areas where the leaders currently say no.” He said Palestinians could no longer live there due to the destruction caused by the US-backed Israeli bombing campaign and the threat of unexploded ordnances, among other things.
The president said repeatedly that the conditions in Gaza have been “like hell,” a result of the Israeli blockade that was first imposed on the Strip in 2007. “I don’t think people should be going back to Gaza. I think Gaza has been very unlucky for them. They’ve lived like hell, they’ve lived like you’re living in hell. Gaza is not a place for people to be living. And the only reason they want to go back, and I believe this strongly, is because they have no alternative,” he said.
When asked if Palestinians would have the right to return to Gaza, Trump said, “It would be my hope that we could do something really nice, really good, where they wouldn’t want to return. Why would they want to return? That place has been hell.”
Israeli officials have welcomed Trump’s idea, which has overwhelming support among Jewish Israelis, and frame what would be ethnic cleansing as “voluntary migration.” But since Israel has made Gaza uninhabitable, Palestinians who don’t want to leave might have no choice but to go for their survival if given the option. Not only have the majority of residential buildings in Gaza been destroyed, but the infrastructure has also been completely shattered.
Regardless of the living situation in Gaza, removing the Palestinian population would face significant resistance from Hamas, which has replaced the fighters it has lost in the Israeli onslaught, according to US intelligence. A Hamas official said on Tuesday that Trump’s proposal was a “recipe for chaos” in the region.
“Our people in the Gaza Strip will not allow these plans to pass. What is required is an end to the occupation and aggression against our people, not their expulsion from their land,” said Hamas official Sami Abu Zuhri, according to Al Jazeera.
Trump and Netanyahu met amid the fragile ceasefire in Gaza, and there’s a significant chance the genocidal war will restart as the Israeli leader is reportedly looking for US support not to implement the second phase of the deal. Netanyahu said his war goals still include the destruction of Hamas, which would be impossible if the full ceasefire deal is implemented.
True. Gaza was always supposed to be temporary. The refugees were supposed to be allowed back into Israel, per the UN resolutions.
So put them back in Israel.
Refugees refers to people born in a country, not grandchildren and great-grandchildren.
So, anyone born under the British Mandate can move back.
The UN is a joke.
Our light skinned cousins bamboozled the world by claiming they waited 2000 years to return to a land the god they don't believe in gave them. And you are belittling our right to come back after a couple of generations? LOL
The trend in the world is towards cosmopolitanism: Individuals as citizens of the world, at home everywhere and nowhere.
So, to many in the world it’s strange that anyone should be involved in a conflict over group rights when increasingly groups don’t exist.
Palestinians might be US citizens living in Palestine together with Israelis who have also become US citizens, before too long. It might be China instead of the US as the global state, but we’re headed towards a global state under one name or another.
Once again, you miss the point and prefer insults to rational arguments.
– The issue was whether Palestinians in Gaza are "refugees". No, they are people who live in Gaza. Maybe their ancestors lived in British Mandatory Palestine, and left during the war of 1947-48. Or maybe – like Yasser Arafat – they were born in Egypt or another country. Regardless, people born in Gaza are not refugees, unless they were alive in 1947. That is the definition of a refugee. It is not a hereditary classification; it is someone fleeing from a war or other danger.
– The claims of Israeli Jews to return to the land of former Jewish kingdoms is not really relevant. Israelis control Israel because of the war in 1947-48. The Jews won. That's the claim all people have on any land.
– In 1947, the Arab League and five Arab nations said they would settle who controls the land in the British Mandate through war. It was settled. They later said, "How about two out of three?" But it's too late.
The people herded into Gaza are refugees and their descendants. Regardless they all have a right to return, and they will. What was taken by force, can only be returned by force. Let's see how you like the "we won the war" bit once the tables are turned?
That’s funny. When exactly did the Arabs arrive in that part of the world and how did they take it ?
My dear go look at any history books. The Arab semitic people have been roaming the Holy Land long before the Romans came for thousands of years. Hebrews and Arabs are cousins. And if you are referring to the Muslim conquests, the Arabs took it from the other Arabs living there. You see initially they fought Roman and Persian auxiliary armies made up of Arabs who lived in that land. It has always been Arab. However, that's not even an issue. Muslims can offer something to our cousins that no one else can: to live anywhere between the Nile and the Euphrates but not as usurpers. Take it or leave it.
False and self-serving narratives.
The Arab Conquest of Jerusalem was an invasion of a Christian land that occurred in 635 AD. It was reconquered by Crusaders then taken back by Muslims, then conquered by the Turks (who are not Arabs), then the British.
So, your history is mostly fantasy.
I am not going to argue history with a novice, given that I have a BA and MA in history, and on top of that I know what I am talking about. The bedouin Arabs have roamed that land since time immemorial, whether you like it or not. Even if we take alternative theories that Palestinians are Israelites who converted to Islam, we still come out on top. The Romans weren't semites. They also invaded land. So what? The Muslims have controlled Jerusalem in the aggregate for well over a 1000 years. And guess what? They are still there. And they are the majority in the region. And just a correction: Jerusalem was conquered peacefully in 637 AD, CE
Leave it thanks. We will not live at the mercy of Muslims. We know where that leads…Oct 7. And the promise to repeat it “again and again and again”
Nonsense. These ingrate people never thanked Muslims for the protection and good treatment they have received in Muslim lands.
What kind of vapid fool ethnically cleanses a population, periodically massacres them, targets their women and children, medics, and journalists, and when there is the inevitable response, says “see, you can’t live with Muslims!” (We know the answer to my rhetorical question).
The amusing irony of the fables of Israelites escaping slavery in Egypt to "take back" the Promised Land from the Canaanites, is that the "Israelites" were THEMSELVES Caananites.
LOL, we'll accept them as such. Just tell them to stop spreading corruption in the land.
1. A refugee is someone who left a conflict zone; it is not a hereditary status. The great-grandchildren of the millions of Germans who were refugees after WWII or those who fled India or Pakistan during their wars cannot make claims on Poland or India or any other country.
2. There is no such thing as a "right to return". What you are claiming is, in fact, "the right of people who lost a war to tell the victors how to run the country" – is absurd.
3. Yes, force determines land ownership. It always had. That applied to the Arab conquest of 635 AD, to Saladin in 1187, and the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, Islamic Caliphates, Ottoman empire, and British empire. And it was what was attempted by the Arab armies in 1947, as well as 1967 and 1973. It was also attempted by Yasser Arafat and Yahya Sinwar, plus Iran, Hezbollah, and the Houthis.
Some day, they may succeed. But that is not today, no matter how many toddlers they kidnap or babies they slaughter or fake arguments you promote.
In fact, it is the attitude you describe – the inability to live in peace with Israel – that justifies the expulsion of Gazans from Gaza.
Israel left Gaza in 2005, and they left Hamas alone. In exchange, Hamas financing war, instead of their own people, with the same goal you express of destroying Israel. In light of that, and the continued support of Hamas by Gazans, the only logical choice is the removal of Palestinians from Gaza. Anything less would be suicidal, which the Israelis are not.
Hamas had a choice. They could have created a peaceful, prosperous society, but they followed your mindset, and picked war instead. Suit yourself.
So World War ll would have never happened if the Poles had only stopped resisting and accepted their defeat by the German army in 1939?
Again, the issue is refugee status, not the invasion of Poland by Germany.
A more accurate parallel is the status of German refugees after WWII. After the German defeat, millions of Germans were forced to move by the victors.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%931950)
As for your question, Poland – as a sovereign nation – had the right to exist and defend itself within its internationally defined borders. In the case of Gaza, the territory has been part of various empires going back to Alexander the Great. It was part of the Ottoman empire and then the British empire until 1947, when Egypt claimed the area. They gave up their claim when Israel took the territory in 1967. Israel left in 2005 and agreed Gaza was part of the Palestinian Authority, which is the internationally recognized government of the State of Palestine. However, after disputed elections, Hamas staged a violent coup and now illegally occupies Gaza.
So, comparing the nation of Poland to the illegally occupied territory of Gaza is not a valid argument.
The Poles LOST a War. Germany had every right to take Poland as the “spoils of War”. I’m just using your argument.
Logic for some people is just to place a thumbs down. Real robust arguments there.
The Poles lost their war with Germany, and Germany occupied Poland. But you seem to forget that Germany lost WWII, so ethnic Germans were expelled from Poland – including those parts of Germany that Poland took after the war.
History, bro.
“The Poles lost their war with Germany and its ally, the Soviet Union, and Germany and the Soviet Union occupied Poland.”
Fixed, no charge.
Yes, that is a more detailed account, but it's the same principle.
However, both countries didn't occupy Poland; they divided the country between them.
The parts of Poland that Russia took never went back to Poland; they became part of the USSR after WWII, and later parts of Ukraine and Belarus.
Ribbentrop – the co-signer of the
Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact – was convicted of war crimes at Nuremberg and hung.
Hopefully Sa’ar will end up like Ribbentrop.
Thomas, do the thumbs down negatively affect our standing as reliable sources of information?
No, they simply reflect people's opinions of our comments.
Yes.
Well, I'm sure Ribbentrop would agree with you; after all, the Nazis supported the Muslim Brotherhood, which Hamas is part of. Although the Nazis and Muslim Brotherhood had different sources, they both reach the same conclusions.
https://isgap.org/flashpoint/from-hitler-to-hamas-a-genealogy-of-evil/
As to Sa'ar and Ribbentrop – while both were foreign ministers, there is a difference: One supported a regime whose goal was the extermination of Jews, while the other fought a regime whose goal was the extermination of Jews.
https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818a.htm
One worked for a regime whose goal was the extermination of Jews, while the other works for a regime whose goal is the extermination of Palestinians.
Oh please.
The Nazi regime was based on a grotesque pseudo-science that divided humans into superior and inferior races. They classified Jews as genetically inferior and inherently evil, a race of people that, in their words, "poisoned society".
In contrast, Israel has a constitution that gives rights to Arabs and Jews in Israel. Israeli Arabs do not face extermination in Israel – they have more rights, and better health, than their cousins in any Arab countries. In fact, Israeli Arabs have the longest life expectancy in the Arab world. Would you say the same for Jews in Nazi Germany?
So, the flaws in your statement includes these:
1. If the Israelis wanted to exterminate the Palestinians, they would do so. Instead, the Palestinian population continues to grow, reaching 14 million.
In contrast, the Germans systematically murdered 70% of all European Jews, while no more that 0.1% of all Palestinians have died in the current war (which is typical of wars in urban areas; 20,000 French civilians died in France after the D-Day invasion, and France was an ally).
2. Hamas – the group that slaughtered 1,200 Israelis on Oct. 7 – is part of the Muslim Brotherhood, which was supported by the actual Nazi Germany, and which embraced their philosophy about Jews. The Hamas charter advocates actual extermination of not only Israelis, but Jews in general. Read it for yourself.
https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818a.htm
So, you have it backwards. The Israelis are actually fighting the same racial hatred that was expressed in Nazi Germany by its direct descendants, as demonstrated by the emphasis of Nazi documents – such as "Mein Kampf" – in their educational system.
3. Israel has no conflict with Palestinians who are peaceful and don't try to kill Israelis. They made a peace agreement with the PLO and have no issues with Palestinians living in Jordan, which has a peace treaty with Israel. And despite Hamas's charter – which declares their purpose is to destroy Israel – they left Hamas along and allowed them to receive billions in aid, up until Oct. 6. Unfortunately, Hamas – led by a homicidal maniac (whose brain cancer Israel had treated) decided to use their vast resources to kill as many Israelis as possible.
So, your claim makes a good bumper sticker – and might get you an "A" at Harvard or Columbia – but it is not based on facts or reality.
Dribble, dribble, dribble… I forgot if I asked you whether you enjoyed seeing those cute female Israeli soldiers come out smiling and healthy looking?
On the other hand the brutality of Palestinian prisoners is being meticulously documented so that the Israelis who commit crimes against humanity can be held to account.
LOL, that's why I am very judicious in going up against you.
One worked for a regime whose goal was the extermination of Jews, while the other works for a regime whose goal is the extermination of Palestinians.
One worked for a regime whose goal was the extermination of Jews, while the other works for a regime whose goal is the extermination of Palestinians.
LOL
How about Israel goes back to the 1967 borders and stop stealing land and oppressing Palestinians?
Israel would still be in 1967 borders had not Egypt blocks Israel port in May 1967.
Nice try Tim. It has become a custom on this venue that whatever you say everyone else then knows the opposite is true. I have an idea; to throw the rest of us off say the opposite of what you mean. Everyone will be confused and you will garner more of the attention you crave.
Did Nasser blockade of the Straits of Tiran from Israeli vessel passage, on 23 May 1967? True or False? Answer True. Did Israel warn Egypt that blocking the straits would be consider an act war? True or False? Answer True. If what I said is false prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Tim, Tim, Tim. Try to process this logically. Zionism is a neo colonial settler project. The battered around light colored skin of our cousins thought they could take land for their own at the expense of the indigenous population. We now know that there plans all along was to expand their state. Preemptively attacking Egypt does not change any of that. However, I understand your perspective. You falsely believe Israel is a legitimate state so blocking its access to sea travel is an act of war. That is true. For a legitimate state. Israel is not legitimate and doesn't belong anywhere.
… except, not "neo" colonial, but "paleo".
By displacing the native population, Israel is in a league all by itself. We can call "Isro Colonialism"
There have been one or two displaced native populations here in North America…
Which is precisely why Trump’s plan, as crazy as it sounds, may have some merit. As long as people like you continue to believe that Israel is an illegitimate state that has no right to exist, there can be no peace. The cycle of war will continue. Sadly, the majority of Palestinians agree with you it seems. The good news is that more and more Arab countries realize that their interests are best served by forging ties with Israel rather than letting Hamas and Hezbollah lead them to the abyss
The governments do not represent the will of their people on the issue of Palestine –neither in the Muslim world nor the West. Of course the majority of Palestinians, the majority of Arabs, the majority of Muslims, and now a growing number of the world community believes Israel is illegitimate. There can be no peace if Israel continues to exist in its current form. The opposition to Israel is growing exponentially irrespective of Hamas and Hezbollah. Why does Israel have a right to exist? What abyss, though? Israel has made a hell for everyone else in the Middle East. It took the land and displaced its indigenous population by force. What is the problem of retaking it by force?
@knappster:disqus@disqus_qhuce9v5DO:disqus@mark_thomason:disqus@dieterheymann:disqus@warsrus:disqus@warren_paine:disqus@robertscheetz:disqus@existentialdread:disqus@oded_samuel:disqus@disqus_cWEo452Cca:disqus@disqus_lbkuZ0DrY6:disqus@disqus_QczQmccBvz:disqus@paladin1950:disqus@disqus_dw0PWv6cnf:disqus@luchorpan:disqus@krzysztfwdtrzy:disqus
Israel might lose US funding and support at some point, but few care much about Israel beyond that.
The US destroyed Libya, sanctioned Yemen, destroyed Syria, etc.: People don’t know what to believe, don’t know how to help, have their own problems.
I just want to clarify that winning for Arabs involves making Israel unpopular among US voters such that the US removes its support.
However, where there’s a will there’s a way. If you personally care about this issue, you will eventually win in some capacity, though it might be decades later when it no longer seems to matter. So, I am not discouraging you. You will win if you care enough.
It's not about winning, it's about rectifying a wrong even if its against oneself.
No state should die
The solution to a state trying to kill another state is to never kill the aggressor state
Israel needs to learn, and Versaille 2.0 is not going to help them "learn," it would only inspire a need for vengeance, rage, and foment anger
Brother. Israel did not exist as an entity but for 76 years out of thousands of years. Its people are welcome to live anywhere but not as usurpers. At least according to the Torah they are destined to wander. They also have not thanked the Muslims for the protection and good treatment that they received. Its not about killing another state, its about rectifying wrongs.
Israel left Gaza in 2005 (despite two thousand years of Jewish history in Gaza) and left Hamas alone.
Hamas took the billions it received in aid and used it for one purpose: to kill Israelis. As many as they could find.
So, Versailles is not the model; Oct 7 is the new model. It demonstrated that leaving an enemy alone only invites mass slaughter. Israelis are good at remembering their history, and will not forget what happened when they left down their guard.
How about we start by recognizing that the Jews are indigenous to that land. A sovereign Jewish kingdom existed there 1500 years before the arrival of Islam and the conquest of that property.
"Ancient Iran, historically known as Persia, was the dominant nation of western Asia for over twelve centuries, with three successive native dynasties—the Achaemenid, the Parthian, and the Sasanian—controlling an empire of unprecedented size and complexity."
Why stop there? We could go back or forward to make whatever point we wish.
Indeed. Let's not forget that early human migration out of Africa passed through that very same region.
The Gesher Benot Ya’aqov site in Israel shows signs of human habitation (and cooking fish) around 600,000 years ago, either by Neanderthals or Heidelbergensis (possibly VERY proto-Sapiens, def. not modern H. Sapien Sapiens), so, go back to them and the land was "theirs".
As with Oct 7th or the Ukraine War, each side will pick a very convenient place "where this all started".
The Persians are still around in Iran as Muslims.
Thanks. I just had no idea!!!
1. A majority of Americans support Israel. https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/majority-in-u-s-say-israel-has-valid-reasons-for-fighting-fewer-say-the-same-about-hamas/
2. There can be no peace no matter what Israel does. Israel left Gaza in 2005, and allowed billions of dollars in aid to reach Gaza. However, Gaza used those funds to launch a failed war. Further, Hamas's charter clearly states that they have an obligation to God to destroy Israel and retake "every inch" of land. https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818a.htm
3. Israel has made the desert bloom and they are not the agents attacking.
4. No country has a right to exist. All countries exist as the result of wars and treaties. In 1947, the Arab League and many Palestinians leaders agreed to settle the ownership of the British Mandate by war; it was settled. They lost. And yes, that is the whole story.
I see you have been a busy little beaver. Go back to your posts, your responses and how you have been refuted time and time again but you come back with the same washed up talking points that can’t convince a 4 year old. It doesn’t give me satisfaction to treat you in this way but you leave no other choice.
Of course, you go for the personal attacks – the sign of a failed argument – as you don't have a single fact or source to back your statements.
However, simply disagreeing is not "refuting". It is just unbacked opinions, which in your case lack anything to support them.
Yes, with individuals like you exactly. Arrogance is repaid with arrogance. Consider it your cousin's tough love until your behavior and what you uphold in terms of bigotry against others changes.
As an anarchist, I don’t believe there’s any such thing as a “legitimate state” with a “right to exist.”
But to the extent that states are going to exist, it’s best if they operate pursuant to their mutual agreements instead of continually violating those agreements.
For example, the Israeli state could offer to remove its forces to within its borders (set in UNR 181 and agreed to by Israel as a condition of UN membership) on the condition that the UN secure those borders (and, per 181, Jerusalem as an international city) with a peacekeeping force. Then the UN could offer the state of Palestine full UN membership if it’s willing to agree to the same borders.
You mean like the UN peace keeping force that has been in Lebanon for 40 years?
I didn't say it would work out.
I just said that the first step toward peace is for the Israeli regime to make some kind of credible offer to live up to the terms it bases its supposed "legitimacy" on.
I don't think Israelis care about "legitimacy" anymore, at there is no such thing. Is North Korea legitimate? How about Saudi Arabia? Or the United States? Or China?
The UN was a tool of American imperialism and mercantilism to fill the void of the immediate post-WWII period, to replace the British empire.
The world has changed and the US no longer has the same world position, so the UN no longer has any significance. It will soon be dissolved, as it is inherently flawed by the constant conflict of self-interest by each country. I think the Russian invasion of Ukraine was the turning point.
Yes, let's not forget other UN "peacekeeper" failures:
the Rwanda genocide, the Srebrenica massacre, and the Somalia conflict.
The UN offered to “secure the border” between Egypt and Israel in 1967. They immediately pulled out when Nasser told them to scram. Israel can rely only on herself.
As an anarchist, you kinda have some excellent ideas on maintaining stable, legal, cooperative States.
LOL
I don't think that stable, legal, cooperative states can be maintained over any long term.
I just have ideas about what they might do if they wanted to TRY for such maintenance.
States are created, exist for awhile, then collapse under external pressures, domestic pressures, or both.
The real problem that I'd like to solve (but haven't) is how to keep NEW states from rising in the place of the old ones.
This is exactly what I meant in an earlier post about coquest and justice. Palestinians are whipping up a frenzy of resistance because of the injustice. Had Israel showed benevolence, justice and true care of those they ruled over, we would have been hard pressed to mount any real resistance. What would we resist? Justice, prosperity, safety?
False. Arabs (Palestinians) in Israel actually have more rights than those in any Arabs countries, and Israel left Gaza in 2005; however, it was occupied by Hamas after a violent coup. Hamas (part of the Nazi-funded Muslim Brotherhood) states clearly in their charter than every inch of Israeli land belongs to them, and that violence is the only way to gain it back, and that no compromise is possible.
So, the Nazi-inspired views of Hamas have nothing to do with Israeli behavior, other than their stubborn refusal to allow themselves to be murdered and to have their nation destroyed. To suggest otherwise means a complete denial of reality, which has no credibility. As usual, you only present bumper sticker arguments, but not a single verified or verifiable fact or source. Not one.
You’re right @alexander. What’s next? What would you like me to do or say?
That is a pleasant thought, but clearly the UN has no ability to secure borders or protect anyone).
As for designating Jerusalem an "international city," the concept was rejected by all parties in the agreement, and what does that even mean?
Further, as Jerusalem has had a Jewish majority since the 1860s (according to the Ottoman census), how does taking it away from a Jewish state make sense?
Clearly, the UN does not have the authority to determine the ownership of major cities. It was simply a proposal – a plan – that was rejected. And name a country that would agree to having it's capital removed by the corrupt, feeble UN. Would Saudi Arabia give up Mecca as an "international city"? How about the capital of North Korea, China, Russia or the United States? The entire concept is absurd and proven unworkable, and the capital of Israel is determined by the Israelis, not 30 (mostly European) countries that voted in 1947 (which included zero Middle Eastern or Muslim nations, and many of which no longer exist). So, imposing a failed, outdated, and rejected plan from Europeans on the Middle East is never going to happen.
The “parties to the agreement” were 1) the UN member states that passed the resolution and 2) the state of Israel, which agreed to the borders set in that resolution as a condition of UN membership.
Sure, Israel could also choose Montreal or Cairo as its capital, and that would represent the same problem: Jerusalem isn’t in Israel.
You completely failed. I stated two facts for you to prove wrong which you can not do. Just because you claim Israel is not legit does not change those facts. Your argument is sophomoric.
Yes, but only if you are a sophomore at Harvard or Columbia; or a professor.
Your logic is as poor as your facts (which are more bumper stickers than actual information, and which lack any supporting links or sources).
1. Zionism is a movement supporting a homeland for the Jews. That's what it means. So, you seem to be referring to something different.
2. The Jews in Israel cannot be "colonizers" as Jews were indigenous to the region. The Jewish kingdoms pre-date any Arab or Muslim occupation. It is the Muslims who conquered and colonized the area. However, Jews have been a majority in Jerusalem since the 1860s, according to the Ottoman census. Jews also had communities in Gaza for two thousand years, until driven out by Palestinians. Hamas worked to erase all traces of Jewish history in Gaza, even in the architecture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Gaza_City
3. For centuries, Jews attempted to buy land in the Ottoman province of Palestine, but were blocked; non-Muslims were not allowed to buy land. So, you have things backwards.
4. The Jews originally agreed to the Two-state solution – as proposed by the UN Partition Plan in 1947 – but it was rejected by the Arab League and many Palestinian leaders (such as the Nazi-loving Grand Mufti Amin al-Husseini)
ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini
5. Israel is a member of the UN and, as far as any state is legitimate, is a state. Meanwhile, Hamas has no legitimacy, as they illegally occupy Gaza. According to all regional agreements and international law, the true government in Gaza is the Palestinian Authority, but Hamas conducted an violent, illegal coup to grab the land.
Thems the facts, Jack.
I don’t need links or sources to respond to recycled trash regurgitated time and time again. Go read some real books on the subject.
Thanks for admitting you have nothing (zero) to back your comments. I didn't think you did.
You are welcome, so back off before you get more of the same.
Back off? Are you the new Moderator? I don't think so. It's not up to you what I post. And the threat of more nothing isn't much of a threat.
Post whatever you want. You make it sound like your worth threatening.
Nasser did not want war, on Wednesday his vice president was going the USA to resolve the issue diplomatically, the clock was set, the Israelis had to do something before a diplomatic resolution came.
There was a good chance to de-escalate the crisis. U.S. Secretary of State, Dean Rusk, stated, “We were shocked…and angry as hell when the Israelis launched the surprise offensive. They attacked on a Monday, knowing that on Wednesday the Egyptian vice president would arrive in Washington to talk about re-opening the Strait of Tiran. We might not have succeeded in getting Egypt to reopen the strait, but it was a real possibility.”
On 5 June Israel <SUPRISE> attacked and destroyed Egyptian air force bases and advance positions in Sinai, occupied the West Bank, Gaza Strip, all of Sinai and the Golan Heights, and all of Jerusalem in what became to be known as the ‘Six-Day War’.
Yitzhak Rabin, chief of staff of the Israeli army, stated: “I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to the Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it”
Menachem Begin, who was a cabinet minister in June 1967, stated, while addressing Israel’s National Defence College on 8 August 1982, “In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai did not prove Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with our selves. We decided to attack him”.
Major General Mattytyahu flatly stated: “The thesis,according to which the danger of genocide hung over 11s in June, 1967, and according to which Israel was fighting for her very physical survival, was nothing but a bluff which was born and bred after the war… While Egyptians had eighty thousand soldiers in the Sinai, Peled explained, Israel had hundreds of thousands of men poised against
them… To pretend the Egyptian forces were capable of threatening Israel's existence not only insults the intelligence of any person capable of analyzing this kind of situation, but it is primarly an offense to the Zahal(Israel military).”
https://www.teamblind.com/post/Israel-lies-about-everything-6-day-war-Q1U8Zb6K
Thank you for that. All this information is in the archives if anyone bothers to read. But no we have to listen to this propaganda dribble, and when faced with facts we get more defelections.
"when faced with facts we get more defelections" That is exactly what you do. Fact is that you misspelled deflections. Let us see how you handle that fact>
You win that
"I never debated an intelligent person except that I won, and I never debated an ignorant person except that he defeated me."
The Israeli'are notorious for their deceptive nature, and ability to target and murder anyone regardless who they are. The US Liberty is a prime example of these fiendish people.
The Six Day War and Israeli Lies: What I Saw at the CIA
by MELVIN GOODMAN
https://www.wrmea.org/50-years-later/counterpunch-the-six-day-war-and-israeli-lies-what-i-saw-at-the-cia.html
The port was blocked and Israel stated before the port was block that blocking the port was casus belli for war. The blocking of the port put the two countries on a war footing.
Did Israel try to sink the USS Liberty and then blame it on Egypt?
No. Israel never blame Egypt for the attack on the Liberty. When Israel realizes that they were attacking a US ship, they called off the attack, informed USA of the mistake, sent choppers out to search for any possible USA sailors in water and sent PTs boat back to offer assistance.
And I have a bridge to sell you.
Really? I did not know this! Where did you get this information from?
Haha you lie as easily as you breathe. Anyone who looks at the historical record of that attack knows it was 100% deliberate. American flag flying in broad daylight, radar frequencies known only to allies jammed, Israeli pilots waving to the crew hours before the attack and then attacking with unmarked jets, radio correspondence between the pilots and their headquarters confirming they were to attack even though it was identified as American….you’re either a complete idiot or completely morally bankrupt. Your choice.
Timothy will NEVER say what he means, or say why he marches in lockstep with everything the ASI says and does.
I confronted him a long while back with a list of ~12 possible, likeliest motivations I could ascribe to his secret ethos. He steadfastly refused to admit to ANY of them (with a minimum of 3 of my guesses almost certainly correct).
He hides behind empty rhetoric, Whataboutism, and a stubbornly contrarian position. He'd be a troll for sure but trolls at least know when to f**k off when they're only being laughed at by the rest of the Commenters.
I know but we agreed long ago that this would be for the benefit of those who come across these comments and can actually benefit from the facts.
Indeed ! Just making sure enough markers are left for newcomers to come across.
LOL
You list of 12 motivations. which were guesses, are garbage made up by a fool. And I do mean that so your "Never" statement is invalid.
I don’t believe you.
Whatever your actual motivations, if they aren’t one or many of the morally questionable ones I posed, then the real answer must be something so disgusting and abhorrent that even ANONYMOUSLY you fear to be honest about it. You know your ethos is utterly indefensible.
My latest hypothesis of your probable motivation (honestly they’re “probable” motivations, not “possible” ones) is that you’re actually a vehemently antisemitic racist who supports everything the ASI does because you realise ALL of it is rapidly contributing to the destruction of both the Apartheid State of Israel, and (to your mind most importantly) the Nation of Israel and its religion.
THAT is DEFINITELY something a person wouldn’t even admit anonymously under a generic fake name.
I cannot prove it, of course, but just know, “Tim Burns”, that I hold moderate confidence that this hypothesis is correct about you.
I actually think that is plausible. Because honestly the whole world is waking up, and our smart and noble cousins are actually on our side. Its like Candace Owens said. Shapiro and his buddies told her to educate herself as to why Israel had to do what it was doing in Gaza. She said she and countless others did, and they didn't like what they saw. They tried to smear her with anti semitism and even that she blew off with dignity and ease. Israel and its supporters are its own worst enemy. @disqus_dw0PWv6cnf:disqus@disqus_lbkuZ0DrY6:disqus@oded_samuel:disqus
How about you provide some evidence to support your claim – for once? I guess not. Instead, you prefer personal attacks, the sign of a failed argument. Sad.
What are you talking about? Are you saying we should get bogged down in minutia over petty issues that lose sight of the main problem of man's inhumanity to man? It's the occupation "genius"
What claim are you talking about Alexander? Articulate what you understand my claim to be.
How about going back before Israel was created by the West wanting to get a foothold in the Middle East in 1948?
Are you opposed to Western interests? Would you prefer a Middle East hostile to the West? Would you prefer to have Iran, Russia, and China controlling the world oil supply and world trade (Suez Canal), and paying $15/gallon for gas (assuming you could get any) and a collapsed EU/US economy?
Suit yourself.
Israel WAS at the 1967 borders…in 1967
It didn’t seem to make a difference to the Arabs.
No, because it established Israel against the will of the indigenous population. That's not a nice thing to do or one that doesn't have dire consequences.
If you go back far enough, just about every state has been established “against the will of the indigenous people”. That’s more true for the Arab, Muslim nations than for most
See that's where you are dead wrong. I never claimed that it's morally wrong to establish a state by conquest. The difference is the early Muslims brought justice to the lands they conquered. They were a minority in their own empire for at least a couple of centuries. Conquered peoples gradually accepted Islam because it benefited them to do so. And the effect is still around today. (The Muslim world is contiguous geographically and bound by the Arabic language and Muslim culture) Any historian will tell you that the muslims did not for the most part destroy or target the civilian populations they conquered. It's just a fact. What justice did Israelis give to Palestinians after conquering them? Look now how Israel destroys villages in Lebanon under the guise of a ceasefire to boot. They just aren't nice or just people. I don't like them.
Ya I get that you don’t like them. What you say about the benevolent Muslim conquests is of course BS. But if you have no problem with establishing a state by conquest, then I guess we have no argument. Please visit Israel and see how free and successful the Muslims citizens of that country are
Folks, I tag you out of a genuine intention of bridging gaps. I am not here to score points or even argue.
Odele said "What you say about the benevolent Muslim conquests is of course BS."
That's why, he and I can't have honest dialogue. Not ONE single Muslim source here. In fact they are all renowned Christian, Jewish or atheist scholars.
1. Hugh Kennedy (Historian, Expert in Islamic History)
"In many cases, the Arabs were not seen as conquerors but as liberators, especially by those who had suffered under Byzantine or Sassanian rule. The relatively lenient taxation system of the Muslims compared to the often oppressive levies of their predecessors made their rule more acceptable."
Source: Hugh Kennedy, The Great Arab Conquests: How the Spread of Islam Changed the World We Live In (New York: Da Capo Press, 2007), p. 172.
2. Montgomery Watt (Scottish Orientalist and Historian of Islam)
"To the great mass of the population, the change of rulers probably meant little more than a change of masters. If anything, the coming of the Muslims reduced the burden of taxation, which had been a great cause of discontent under Byzantine and Persian rule."
Source: W. Montgomery Watt, Islamic Political Thought (Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press, 1968), p. 17.
3. Peter Brown (Historian, Scholar of Late Antiquity)
"It is clear that in Egypt and Syria the Muslim conquerors were often welcomed by the local populations, particularly by those who had suffered from heavy taxation and religious persecution under Byzantine rule. The Muslims taxed their subjects, but often at a lower rate than the Byzantines, and in many cases, the transition of rule was remarkably smooth."
Source: Peter Brown, The World of Late Antiquity, AD 150-750 (London: Thames & Hudson, 1971), p. 191.
4. Ira M. Lapidus (American Historian of Islamic Societies)
"The Muslim conquests did not involve large-scale destruction, and the conquerors did not attempt to force conversions. Many cities and towns surrendered peacefully, and the local elites were incorporated into the new system, which often resulted in lower taxation and relative autonomy."
Source: Ira M. Lapidus, A History of Islamic Societies (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1988), p. 43.
5. Francesco Gabrieli (Italian Orientalist)
"The fall of Syria, Egypt, and Mesopotamia into Muslim hands was not accompanied by the devastation and massacres which are often associated with conquests. The populations of these provinces, especially the Monophysite Christians, were dissatisfied with Byzantine rule and often facilitated the Muslim advance."
Source: Francesco Gabrieli, Muhammad and the Conquests of Islam (London: World University Library, 1968), p. 103.
6. Bernard Lewis (Orientalist and Historian)
"The Arab conquerors, unlike later European colonial rulers, did not seek to impose their language, culture, or religion by force. In many cases, they were welcomed, particularly in lands where the ruling powers had imposed heavy taxes and harsh rule on their populations."
Source: Bernard Lewis, The Arabs in History (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2002), p. 62.
7. Gustave Le Bon (French Historian and Sociologist)
"The people of Syria, Egypt, and Persia saw the Arabs as liberators from the tyranny of the Byzantines and Persians. They readily accepted Muslim rule, which provided them with religious freedom and lighter taxation."
Source: Gustave Le Bon, La Civilisation des Arabes (Paris: Firmin-Didot, 1884), p. 160.
8. Philip Hitti (Historian of the Arab World)
"The Byzantine fiscal system had been oppressive, particularly to the peasantry. The Arabs, by contrast, imposed a system of taxation that was simpler and often more lenient, which explains why many cities opened their gates to them without resistance."
Source: Philip Hitti, History of the Arabs (London: Macmillan, 1937), p. 143.
@knappster:disqus@disqus_qhuce9v5DO:disqus@mark_thomason:disqus@disqus_E05j4B3lQf:disqus@RamboDavid:disqus@disqus_AZFNUPuumK:disqus@dieterheymann:disqus@warsrus:disqus@spacewurm:disqus@disqus_zPMJ7rV4CH:disqus@warren_paine:disqus@robertscheetz:disqus@existentialdread:disqus@oded_samuel:disqus@disqus_jzsK7ljwo3:disqus@disqus_cWEo452Cca:disqus@unclesapien:disqus@disqus_lbkuZ0DrY6:disqus@disqus_QczQmccBvz:disqus@paladin1950:disqus@disqus_dw0PWv6cnf:disqus@luchorpan:disqus@krzysztfwdtrzy:disqus
I doubt there’s a bridge-able gap there.
Conquest is conquest.
The conquerors always have excuses and justifications.
The conquered always have at least some factions which are OK with or even support the conquest.
Exactly. Islam is not a "pacifist" religion. Conquest is a fixture of human history up until today. And the reason is simple. When human beings who have all been endowed by reason differ to the point that they can't resolve their differences peacefully, war, which is an extension of politics by other means takes place, including conquest. This is a facet of human nature. The response is not to claim an impossible ideal but show the greatest justice and morality under the circumstances.
Just like "bad" people exert great effort to achieve their nefarious goals, so too should good people double down and show that justice, fairness and compassion towards humanity is possible. Otherwise, we risk the possibility of forever being subjugated by other human beings who do not hold worldviews that encompass these universally agreed upon principles of human decency.
While anecdotal, the proof is simple.
IF one were to be captured and imprisoned, would one prefer to be held by Israel or Hamas?
It’d be an interesting topic to debate. It’s well that it’s not illegal to talk about that period of history.
The Persian religion didn’t much survive Islamic conquest. I want to say there were forced marriages at one point, to aid conversion.
That is a good point you bring up. Even such things were debated by the early Muslims. (I refer to the past to show continuity in Islamic tradition that was not supplanted by new ideologies as is the experience in the West.)
An example was the conquest of Persia. Even though Zoroastrians were not specifically mentioned as "People of the Book," for purposes of governance they were treated in the same way. For paying the poll tax they were protected and allowed to practice their religion.
However, what is most interesting is the early scholarly debate over whether the freedom to practice of xwēdōdah (consanguineous marriage), close kin marriage including siblings should be allowed under the freedom to worship. It is strictly prohibited in Islam. While most ruled it should be prohibited, the early Abbasids tolerated as it was not widely practiced.
The point is, the Persians were allowed to practice their faith. Yes there was slavery and inter marriage. Gradually the Persians converted to Islam voluntarily and because it was more advantageous to do so as poll taxes rose.
Unlike, most conquerers for the most part Muslims didn't destroy houses of worship and institutions. A classic example is the Academy of Gundeshapur. It housed the collective knowledge and scientific advancements of hundreds of years. The Arab conquerers humbly sought to be taught that knowledge.
Another important point is the fact that after British and US intervention in modern Iran, what arose and has been solidly in place for nearly half a century now is Islamic identify and rule.
You said:
"Please visit Israel and see how free and successful the Muslims citizens of that country are"
I did. I didn't like what I saw.
1. Selective Framing: Citizenship vs. Occupation
While some Palestinian citizens of Israel (often referred to as “Arab Israelis”) do have certain rights, this claim ignores the larger reality of Israeli policies toward Palestinians in the Occupied Territories (West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem).
Citizenship for Palestinians in Israel is not the same as equal treatment. Palestinian citizens face systemic discrimination in land allocation, education, employment, and political representation.
2. Legal and Institutional Discrimination
Nation-State Law (2018): Declares Israel as the "nation-state of the Jewish people," effectively institutionalizing second-class status for non-Jews, including Palestinian citizens.
Land and Housing Discrimination: Over 900 Jewish towns have been built since 1948, while almost no new Palestinian towns have been established. Palestinian areas face housing restrictions and underfunding.
Political Suppression: Palestinian parties and politicians face delegitimization, and Palestinian citizens' ability to shape policy is minimal due to exclusion from governing coalitions.
3. Economic Disparities
While some Palestinian citizens of Israel have achieved economic success, they face structural obstacles:
Employment Discrimination: Many high-paying industries, such as technology and military-linked sectors, systematically exclude Palestinian citizens.
Education Disparities: Palestinian-majority schools receive less funding compared to Jewish-majority schools.
Restricted Land Ownership: 93% of Israel's land is state-controlled, and much of it is allocated preferentially for Jewish citizens.
4. False Comparison to Western Democracies
The claim implies that Palestinian citizens of Israel enjoy full equality akin to minorities in democratic states, which is misleading.
Israel defines itself as a "Jewish state," which inherently prioritizes one ethnic/religious group over others.
Even in the U.S. or Europe, minorities face discrimination, but they do not live under an ethno-nationalist regime that structurally privileges one group over another.
Counter-Response: A Simple Framing
“Visiting Israel doesn’t change the fact that Palestinian citizens face systemic discrimination, and millions of Palestinians under occupation have no rights at all. Freedom and success should not be measured by comparison to oppression, but by full equality.”
@disqus_lbkuZ0DrY6:disqus@oded_samuel:disqus@disqus_dw0PWv6cnf:disqus
Levy’s Three Factors
What does it take for one group of people to justify the pain and suffering of another group of people?
Several years ago, journalist Gideon Levy, who writes for the Israeli newspaper Haaretz as a trenchant critic of the occupation, argued that three factors are at play: chosenness, victimhood and dehumanization.
“Most Israelis believe deeply that we are the chosen people,” said Levy, “and we have the right to do whatever we want.”…
Resolution and Mediation at Tel Aviv University, a staggering 80 percent of Israeli say their people’s suffering is unique in human history; 84 percent believe their victimization is worse than all other people that have suffered from persecution and injustice; and perhaps most troubling, 63 percent believe their victimhood grants them the moral entitlement to take any action in order to survive.
https://truthout.org/articles/polls-show-broad-support-in-israel-for-gazas-destruction-and-starvation/
See that's very interesting because all it takes is a casual observation of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict to bear that out. Yes we claim to be victims of their inhumanity, but we haven't lost ours. Because of their inhumanity and blindness they erroneously think that we would do to them what they did to us. In fact why do you think they kill innocent men women and children? It is to self preserve their psychotic state of mind, which allows them to kill at will when they should know that it is morally reprehensible to do so. And for God's sake even a timid cat scratches when it is cornered. So what do you think the reaction of human beings would be living under occupation and its ramifications for decades?
Not an excuse, but this is a deeply ingrained psychology which they are subjected to through indoctrination, early and frequently. They expand the ideology across the globe through the trips they sponsor to Israel from abroad, as well.
If you listen to people like Gabor and Aaron Mate, Glenn Greenwald, etc. it is brainwashing the paranoia: everyone is out to get you, only Israel makes you safe, and you are special above all others.
It is a notion repeated by empire and Zionist leaders for geopolitical advantage.
Even though the bible is used as justification for expansion and rights of ownership, Netanyahu, himself, is secular as are the vast amount of Israelis.
I will post a link on another comment which will go immediately to moderation due to tagged words.
Oh definitely understood. That is why I do what I do because at the end of the day it is clear that by dialogue and interaction, I am doing my part to help cure them of this trauma. I witnessed Miko Peled and Rabbi Dovid Weiss discussing the very same and agreeing about the indoctrination and how muslims are actually the best remedy for the problem.
Look at the US indoctrination from cradle to grave, “We are the indispensable nation. We are fighting for freedom and democracy. We are the police of the world. Our founders were practically saints. We must genuflect to our military and thank them for their service in fighting dictators”.
We are special.
Hollywood repeats what school history lessons taught and msm constantly tells people.
It takes an enormous amount of information to break through this and then to accept the cognitive dissonance that follows. I can admit for a long time I was a victim of the propaganda and indoctrination. Most US citizens are up to a point and some never get beyond it.
It’s that cognitive dissonance that leads to bizarre outcomes of exploitation, greed, violence and man’s inhumanity to man. There is nothing wrong in striving to be the best. The question is what underpins the nation’s claim to greatness? Whiteness? Manifest destiny? Christianity? Liberalism?
Here’s what Pat Buchanan wrote many years ago on antiwar.com
“Even as Christianity seems to be dying in Europe, Islam is rising to shake the 21st century as it did so many previous centuries.”
…
“The idea for which our many of our adversaries fight is a compelling one. They believe there is but one God, Allah; that Muhammad is his prophet; that Islam, or submission to the Koran, is the only path to paradise; and that a Godly society should be governed according to the Shariah, the law of Islam. Having tried other ways and failed, they are coming home to Islam.
What idea do we have to offer? Americans believe that freedom comports with human dignity, that only a democratic and free-market system can ensure the good life for all, as it has done in the West and is doing in Asia.
From Ataturk on, millions of Islamic peoples have embraced this Western alternative. But today, tens of millions of Muslims appear to be rejecting it, returning to their roots in a more pure Islam.
Indeed, the endurance of the Islamic faith is astonishing.”
Source: An Idea Whose Time Has Come?
by Patrick J. Buchanan Posted onJune 23, 2006, antiwar.com
Finally, I’ll say that Islam is not based on a race, ethnicity, language or a person but an ethos. Anyone can become a Muslim tomorrow.
Look at this verse.
“you are the best community that has been raised up for mankind. you enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency; and you believe in God.”
Religion has outsized role in Israel, yet most of its Jews aren’t really observant
Over three-quarters of country’s Jews define themselves as secular or traditional; ultra-Orthodox birthrate is 6.5; some 4,000 Haredim leave their communities each year
AP — Israel is a nation perennially swept up in religious fervor and conflict. And yet, strikingly, a large portion of its population is secular, and even its insular ultra-Orthodox community loses a steady stream of members who tire of its strict religious rules.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/religion-has-outsized-role-in-israel-yet-most-of-its-jews-arent-really-observant/
Last comment, but on the US:
The words of playwright Harold Pinter’s 2005 Nobel Prize acceptance speech
“The United States supported and in many cases engendered every right wing military dictatorship in the world after the end of the Second World War. I refer to Indonesia, Greece, Uruguay, Brazil, Paraguay, Haiti, Turkey, the Philippines, Guatemala, El Salvador, and, of course, Chile. The horror the United States inflicted upon Chile in 1973 can never be purged and can never be forgiven.
Hundreds of thousands of deaths took place throughout these countries. Did they take place? And are they in all cases attributable to US foreign policy? The answer is yes they did take place and they are attributable to American foreign policy. But you wouldn’t know it.
It never happened. Nothing ever happened. Even while it was happening it wasn’t happening. It didn’t matter. It was of no interest. The crimes of the United States have been systematic, constant, vicious, remorseless, but very few people have actually talked about them. You have to hand it to America. It has exercised a quite clinical manipulation of power worldwide while masquerading as a force for universal good. It’s a brilliant, even witty, highly successful act of hypnosis.
I put to you that the United States is without doubt the greatest show on the road. Brutal, indifferent, scornful and ruthless it may be but it is also very clever. As a salesman it is out on its own and its most saleable commodity is self love. It’s a winner.
Listen to all American presidents on television say the words, ‘the American people’, as in the sentence, ‘I say to the American people it is time to pray and to defend the rights of the American people and I ask the American people to trust their president in the action he is about to take on behalf of the American people.’
It’s a scintillating stratagem. Language is actually employed to keep thought at bay. The words ‘the American people’ provide a truly voluptuous cushion of reassurance. You don’t need to think. Just lie back on the cushion. The cushion may be suffocating your intelligence and your critical faculties but it’s very comfortable. This does not apply of course to the 40 million people living below the poverty line and the 2 million men and women imprisoned in the vast gulag of prisons, which extends across the US.
The United States no longer bothers about low intensity conflict. It no longer sees any point in being reticent or even devious. It puts its cards on the table without fear or favour. It quite simply doesn’t give a damn about the United Nations, international law or critical dissent, which it regards as impotent and irrelevant …”
So who is there to protect the targets and those oblivious of these machinations?
Shrug.
Israel wanted the war and started the war with total lies.
"Israel Deceived the World in 1967, and Paid the Price for It in 1973
Israel pretended to be the victim during the Six-Day War, and succeeded in deceiving the world. But it failed to prepare properly for the Yom Kippur War, fearing it would be blamed for starting the next war:
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2017-06-05/ty-article-magazine/.premium/israel-deceived-the-world-in-67-and-paid-the-price-in-73/0000017f-f77e-d460-afff-ff7e84d90000
Move them into the illegal settlements in the West Bank, and send the illegal settlers into the rubble of Gaza!
UN 147 states " refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date". The condition of live in peace was never met. There is a long list of Palestinians terror acts against Israel going all way back to 1948.
Refugees are individual people, not whatever arbitrary ethnic group they may happen to be associated (voluntarily/intentionally or otherwise) with.
To help you understand, an analogous situation: “The Jews” did not conduct the long list of Zionist terror attacks going back to 1948 and before.
Everybody's had to fight to be free.
You see, you don't have to live like a refugee (don't have to live like a refugee).
Refugees are individual people. I will accept that. If you will accept that being a member of an arbitrary group does not automatically make you a refugee.
Refugees are individual people, not whatever arbitrary ethnic group they may happen to be associated (voluntarily/intentionally or otherwise) with.
To help you understand, an analogous situation: “The Jews” did not conduct the long list of Zionist terror attacks going back to 1948 and before.
Refugees are individual people, not whatever arbitrary ethnic group they may happen to be associated (voluntarily/intentionally or otherwise) with.
To help you understand, an analogous situation: “The Jews” did not conduct the long list of Zionist terror attacks going back to 1948 and before.
Palestinian terror acts against Israel are you that dense? It was the Zionists flooding in after Israel was created that killed, raped Palestinians and pushed them out of their houses adn took possession as if all was theirs.
"…are you that dense?"
Neutron stars be lookin' at Tim Burns like, "Daaaaaaaaamn…"
LOL
Are you saying that in the entire conflict that there were never any Palestinians terror acts Israelis? You can not be that stupid.
Tim, Tim, Tim. Victims don't have to be perfect and oppressors don't have to be all evil. Your type is particularly bad because your rationale perpetuates a clear wrong. All that does is harm others and leads to man's inhumanity to man.
The occupation forces have to let them first. Attacks against Occupying force are not terrorism. Occupation is anti peace. There longer lists of Israeli destruction of Palestinian lives and homes that never stopped.
"Attacks against Occupying force are not terrorism." Attacks against Israelian civilians are terrorists attacks. Attacks against IDF forces not terrorists. Killing Hamas fighters is not genocide.
Except that Israel slaughtered over 17,000 children and as many women. Were they all really Hamas?
Allowed back into Israel? Not as far as Israelis were concerned. Ethnic cleansing has always been accepted as a very necessary part of the Zionist project.
There are virtually no refugees in Gaza. Some claim to be descendants of people who left British Palestine during the 1947-48 war; but a "refugee" is a person who flees a combat zone, not their distant relatives.
The great-grandchildren of other wars are not "refugees".
As for the UN, it is a joke that lacks credibility or integrity.
"There are virtually no refugees in Gaza." Refugees are meant to return to their homes after the war is over, not languish in camps for decades because those who kicked them out decided to ethnically cleanse them.
No, refugees are simply people who flee a war or conflict zone. They are not "meant" to do anything.
Historically, refugees most often move to other countries, as with ethnic Germans after WWII, and Indians and Muslims after the Indian-Pakistan war.
However, you fail to grasp the essential point, which is that people born in Gaza are not refugees. They are the grandchildren and great-grandchildren of refugees. No one who was born after 1948 is a refugee, because they did not leave the conflict zone.
So, someone would have to prove that he or she lived in British Mandatory Palestine prior to 1948, and that they left involuntarily, to qualify as a "refugee". If they left on their own (as many did), they simply moved out of the area.
Others (like many "Palestinian" leaders, such as Yasser Arafat) were not even born in British Mandatory Palestine. Arafat was born in Cairo, Egypt, to an Egyptian family. He served in the Egyptian army and spoke Arabic with an Egyptian accent.
In 1947, Palestinians were offered a Palestinian state as part of the UN partition plan; they turned it down and chose war instead. Later, Arafat was offered a Palestinian state, but he turned it down. Now, it looks like they will end up with nothing, not even Gaza. Oh well.
All this nonsense is to undermine UNWRA. However, it won't work and others will take up the slack to keep the right of return alive and well no matter what the Israelis do. Victims and survivors of the Shoah would be proud of them.
wasn't drumpf supposed to be the peace president?
He is. LOL. His plan for Gaza peace is to get rid of the Palestinians.
Why do they hate us?
Because blame the USA for their failures.
And pay each Palestinian $1m each to rebuild.
That even funnier. Trump will never pay Pale4stians a dime.
He realises that they’re badly off and need opportunities.
Trump can be tricked, but he’ll never wittingly support ISIS/al Qaeda in Syria. (I’m highlighting how he has limits though this isn’t the topic).
He wouldn’t support sanctions if he realised what they do.
Trump doesn’t understand how oppression works. Israel knows to keep its enemies weak, to destroy and hinder them, minimize their opportunities and break their group identity, will to resist, potential for power and growth etc.
But Trump is more innocent. He doesn’t think that deeply. He’ll give them opportunities.
Israel knows to “tear down their temples.” Israel knows to “make the humble great, and the great humble” (and thus grateful and reliant on Israel). Trump doesn’t.
"[Trump's] plan for Gaza peace is to get rid of the Palestinians."
you have no prob with ethnic cleansing.
like yr 'final solution' zionist pals, you just wanna do it by planned mass murder.
"Report Details How Israel Intentionally Targets Civilians in Gaza" (antiwar, 11/30/23)
He might well be that.
Maybe it's the "piece" president – a piece of Gaza, a piece of Ukraine, a piece of Mexico, a piece of Panama, a piece of Canada…
"Piece" President. He gets a piece of the Gaza real-estate redevelopment, a piece of profitable "rare earth minerals in Ukraine", a piece of resources under Greenland, a piece of Canadian tar sands….
Trump says U.S. will take over Gaza Strip
https://www.reuters.com/world/trump-says-us-will-take-over-gaza-strip-2025-02-05/
You cant make this shit up
Netanyahu hat ein richtiges backpfeifengesicht.
Thats his native language
He’s of Polish descent: real name Mileikowsky.
His name was never Mileikowsky. That was father's name, changed to Netanyahu decades before this guy was born — in Israel.
It’s still the legitimate original family name.
Bullshit.
For one thing, his family’s been around for a lot longer than that name has.
For another, there’s no magic “legitimacy” to family names. They change all the time.
So you’re saying that the family name was never Mileikowsky? There certainly is “legitimacy” to name origins in descendancy and ancestry.
You make like the very common “Palestinian” name Al-Masry which means the Egyptian?
Are you trying to be stupid?
It shows that people were free to move around, and weren't bound by ethnocentric notions of superiority. And so what? we still have Palestinians of Moroccan descent who came with the armies of Saladin to liberate Jerusalem from the Crusades. Oh, and by the way he was a KURD, not an Arab. And they say we are descendants of Israelites who converted to Islam. We are proud not to be racist. Would you like to join our club? @existentialdread:disqus
The name reflects where the family’s origins are, which in this case, is Europe. My descendants are European, as my surname suggests. If I change my name to Saleem it doesn’t make me Middle Eastern, and if I change my name to Horowitz, it doesn’t give me the right to move to the Mideast due to some real or imagined persecution on another continent and displace an indigenous family.
Every family’s origins are in Africa.
My bad. I guess I needed to specify I was referring to the last 10,000 years.
LOL, too
LOL
Absolutely Disgusting. Trump is in the pocket of the Zionists. Those butchers want Lebanon, Syria etc. next. Trump is not a "peace" president. He is completely mad and violating his oath of office by working on behalf of a genocidal foreign power.
Huckabee spoke yesterday still thinking that Trump will give him and the Evangelicals "Greater Israel" adn speed up the time for Jesus to reappear in Israel.
Even if that would actually happen he and most Christians woudl not recognize him.
You're so right. That's the irony. Jesus (PBUH) will say to them
On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"
Mathew 7:22-23
The president said repeatedly that the conditions in Gaza have been “like hell,” a result of the Israeli blockade that was first imposed on the Strip in 2007. “I don’t think people should be going back to Gaza. I think Gaza has been very unlucky for them. They’ve lived like hell, they’ve lived like you’re living in hell. Gaza is not a place for people to be living. And the only reason they want to go back, and I believe this strongly, is because they have no alternative,” he said.
So casually talking about the longtime miserable conditions in Gaza seemingly oblivious to the fact that he is sitting next to the butcher who is responsible for those very conditions. But we know he isn't oblivious which makes it that more disgusting.
Yup, consider Israel made Gaza unlivable with the bombs it received from the US.
I'm curious to see who Trump expects to conduct the demolition with the rubble laced with unexploded ordinance.
He wouldn't risk Americans (not that he'll ever need "voters" again) so my guess is he'll decide on Bangledeshi or Malaysian migrant workers who are just his right mix of {cheap, plentiful, brown}.
That's what happens when you attack a neighbor with a superior military. What did they think would happen?
Well, things I didn't think would happen; that they would destroy everything in sight and still lose, be hated by the world, have to replenish their shattered economy to the tune of billions, come crawling to their superpower benefactor, experience major migration out of Israel, have their soldiers fill psychiatric wards, etc. the lsit goes on and on…..
They’ve likely tricked him on at least part of the history.
Trump doesn't believe in history.
When GOD is MONEY, HUMANS don't matter.
Part of the idea is to take the onus off tiny Israel and place it on broader shoulders. A public relations ploy, Trump's specialty. Substantively nothing has occurred. Israel was and is still the capital of the US.
Delusional. The capital of the US is Washington; however, Israel is an ally, and the US is smart enough to help its allies.
Should the US the Palestinians? You mean, the people (some) who danced with joy on 9/11, as the WTC was still burning?
And many Palestinian leaders – such as al-Huseini -actively supported US enemies, including Hitler in WWII, the USSR in the Cold War, and Saddam Hussein in the Gulf War. The current "government" in Gaza – Hamas – is designated a terrorist organization, and they murdered and kidnapped US citizens on Oct. 7, and still hold Americans hostage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini
Wait a minute, I’m confused. Wasn’t it 5 Israelis, our “allies”, that clearly had foreknowledge of 9/11 and were celebrating it as the towers were hit?
It’s somewhat comical that you refer to all these entities as either allies or enemies or “terrorists” simply because they’re designated such by a country that has been completely corrupted by Israel. There’s a reason Israel needs to wage a massive publicity campaign to defend itself…if the truth were known Israel would lose all western support overnight.
The "dancing Israelis" were debunked a long time ago. In fact, Israel joined Egypt and other countries in warning the Bush administration about the risk of Bin Laden attacking the US.
Maybe you are thinking of the Palestinians who were celebrating and handing out sweets when they saw the destruction of the World Trade Center on 9/11. In fact, many Palestinian leaders have supported US enemies for generations: Nazi Germany in WWII, the Soviet Union in the Cold War, Iraq in the Gulf War, etc. Palestinian leader Amin al-Husseini was a recruiter for the Nazi SS, and the Muslim Brother.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini
Also, Israel, by US law, a "major non-NATO ally," which invokes certain legal requirements by the US.
As for "the truth," it doesn't seem that you have access to any. Next you'll be talking about the USS Liberty and the Samson Initiative. Here's some tin-foil for your hat.
Debunked by who, the Jerusalem Post? The Israeli government? It most certainly hasn’t been debunked by anyone with a shred of credibility.
Are you actually going to tell me the USS Liberty incident was an accident? American flag flying in broad daylight, radar frequencies known only to allies jammed, Israeli pilots waving to crewman on the ship and then returning in unmarked aircraft for the attack, IDF pilots strafing lifeboats….see if any of the crewmen onboard believe it was a mistake.
I suppose the Lavon affair was just a “blood libel” and Deirdre Yasein, Tantura, and dozens of other massacres didn’t occur.
I always expect defenders of Israel to lie, they have no choice if you’re going to defend the indefensible. But the ridiculousness of it has become comical.
You can live in your fantasy world of delusion all you want. The world has woken up and there’s no turning back.
1. The sad attempt to move the blame from Islamic fundamentalists to Israel is…sad.
The FBI concluded the Israeli movers had no connection to the Al-Qaeda attack on the WTC. Can yo provide proof otherwise? Of course you can't.
https://web.archive.org/web/20020802194310/https://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/DailyNews/2020_whitevan_020621.html
You also ignore that in August 2001, the Mossad gave the CIA a list of 19 terrorists living in the US that it said appeared to be planning to carry out an attack in the near future.
The US knows who its enemies and friends are; Israel is, by law, a "major non-NATO ally". Al-Qaeda is a designated terrorist group. You may think you are smarter than the entire US intelligence community, the US Congress, and the US military, but that is clearly not the case.
2. I didn't say whether the USS Liberty incident was by accident or intentional. I said it isn't relevant. This happened in the middle of a chaotic war environment 58 years ago. Like the British decision to attack the French fleet (which killed 1,300 French sailors), people in wars make tough decisions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Mers-el-K%C3%A9bir
However, the US-Israeli alliance is based on mutual self-interest; Israel provides the US with high-tech military tech and spying/intelligence, plus location in the vital Middle East (where 30% of the world' oil passes through). So, parading the USS Liberty around is a cheap way of saying you don't like Israelis. Well, suit yourself. I don't like the corrupt House of Saud but I recognize its strategic significance. That's called living the real world.
So, you can apologize now for suggesting that I am lying, when you haven't demonstrated any untruths. As for massacres – yes, they happen in wars. All the time. War is a nasty business, and the US also has a long history of slaughtering civilians and POWs, including during Indian wars, the Civil War, and WWII, where hundreds of thousands of civilians and German soldiers were killed, including the bombing of Tokyo (100,00 dead) and the atomic bombs dropped on the Japanese.
However, as an American, I want the US and US allies to win. I don't need to apologize for that or lie about it. There is no alternative to winning. The Israelis understand this, even you if you don't.
“You also ignore that in August 2001, the Mossad gave the CIA a list of 19 terrorists living in the US that it said appeared to be planning to carry out an attack in the near future.”
Care to share any more information about that?
There is one source you might know – it's called " antiwar.com ".
http://www.antiwar.com/article.php?articleid=2305
"Langley, August 23, 2001. The Israeli Mossad intelligence agency handed its American counterpart a list of names of terrorists who were staying in the US and were presumably planning to launch an attack in the foreseeable future. According to documents obtained by Die ZEIT, Mossad agents in the US were in all probability surveilling at least four of the 19 hijackers, among them al-Midhar…"
Also:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/2294487.stm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_intelligence_before_the_attacks#:~:text=On%2023%20August%202001%2C%20the,would%20partake%20in%20the%20attacks.
"Before 9/11, there was a feeling in Washington that Mossad was once more crying wolf, that it had a vested interest in promoting Islamic fundamentalism as a threat because it feared its terrorists and wanted to persuade the United States that it also faced a similar threat…"
"However, Haleavy confirmed to me that Mossad “had sent several warnings in the week prior to September that an attack was coming” and cited “credible chatter” Mossad agents had picked up in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Yemen. In his diplomatic way, he implied that the growing turf war between the FBI and CIA in 2001 was one reason why the warnings were ignored Both agencies had concrete evidence that al-Qaeda was an increasing threat: one of its operatives had been stopped at the last moment from flying a hijacked plane into the Eiffel Tower in Paris, and intel had emerged at Langley, indicating bin Laden was planning an air strike against the economic summit it Italy earlier in 2001. But the sense of paralysis and denial, compounded by the growing turf war between the FBI and the CIA, had continued to hold the U.S. intelligence community in its grip"
https://www.thehistoryreader.com/military-history/mossad-911/
Thanks!
I can't verify that any of this is fact, but there are multiple sources, and immediately after 9/11, a lot of information was floating around that should be re-examined. However, there are many reports of several nations warning the US about a potential attack, but who knows?
There was a 9/11 timeline online that was incredibly detailed that came out soon after 9/11. It had lots of information I haven't seen anywhere else, but I can't find it today. The internet isn't forever, and in some ways, is more transient than print.
Trump’s Plan to ‘Clean Out’ Gaza Could Upend Jordan
The country’s role as a regional stabilizer is at risk if it takes on more Palestinian refugees.
Jordanian Foreign Minister Ayman Safadi underscored in response that Jordan’s position on receiving Palestinian refugees would not change: “Jordan is for Jordanians, and Palestine is for Palestinians.” This message applies to Trump’s request for Gaza, but also potentially to displaced Palestinians in the West Bank who might be forced into Jordan as Israel escalates its attacks and raids in the occupied territory….
Any position the king takes—or is seen to take—on the Palestinian issue risks triggering public unrest and protests given Hamas’s surge in popularity across Jordan following the Oct. 7, 2023, attack. Public sentiment in Jordan remains highly sensitive to developments in Gaza, and any indication of acquiescence to external pressure could provoke significant backlash from citizens, especially from the Palestinian community. For Jordan, navigating these pressures is not just a matter of politics—it is essential to the kingdom’s survival.
https://archive.ph/c5QlL
As the jacket says, "I don't care. Do you?"
Economic Times
Two Pudknockers: (aviation slang): ………..
Two pretentious but unskilled pilots.
"We categorically reject the president’s suggestion that the Palestinians in Gaza be moved — apparently forcefully — to either Egypt or Jordan,” Arab Americans for Trump chairman Bishara Bahbah told The Times of Israel." Hope Bhbah is happy with trump's new plan for Gaza. Let me be blunt, anyone who voted for trump or not voted biden because they thought that trump would be better for Palestinians is politically stupid.
Not many people thought that. Biden and the Dems had to be punished and they were. Trump is good because he hastens Israel's downfall. Abraham Accords produced October 7th. Ethnically cleansing Gaza will bring down the Arab regimes. What more could we have hoped for?
You live in fantasy world if you think that Trump is hastening Israel's downfall.
I could be wrong if Trump is playing Israel for a fool. Both ways Israel is screwed.
You are drinking Iranian et al Koolaid. Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran took a huge beating but “victory is ours”.
Flavor-Aid.
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. According to US intelligence Hamas replenished its forces (thanks to the genocidal army). Those cute female Israeli soldiers looked happy to be in the company of brave men. When the other side got a beating they went to psychiatric wards in Israel from the trauma they inflicted and received. A weaker force wins when it survives the stronger power fails when it can't achieve its goals.
Hamas replenishes its forces with 15 year olds. Fortunately they have little in the way of weapons and training and hopefully Israel will do everything they can to prevent arms from being smuggled into the strip
First of all you have absolutely no proof for that. At best, that could be the cut off age that Al Qassam may consider entry into the brigades. Even if they enter at that age, they will be trained for years. There were no 15 year olds in the Oct. 7th attack. Finally, even if its all true it negatively reflects on Israel. 1. Half of the Strip is under 20 something. (why brutalize such young minds that could bes pent winning them over?) 2. What do you expect them to do living in an open air prison with no futures? Become Elon Musks or may be subservient sheep?
Finally, they've shown they can think outside of the box. They don't need big weapons. Just wait and see what surprises are to come.
He might well be. You live in a fantasy world if you think you know the future.
Absurd analysis on all fronts.
1. Why should Biden be punished? He supported a US ally. It is in the interests of the United States to defend its allies. Hamas is not an ally, and they murdered and kidnapped American citizens, and brutally attacked a US ally. Further, Hamas is aligned with US enemy Iran, and is part of the Nazi-trained Muslim Brotherhood.
2. Trump supports Israel, and why would the downfall of a US ally be good?
3. The cause of the barbaric Oct. 7 attack was Hamas, which clearly expresses its hatred of Israelis and Jews. Its actions simply matched its words and desires.
4. Moving Gazans to another location would bring down the Arab regimes? What regimes? In Jordan, the government won't take in more Palestinians, because they already tried to overthrow the government there. Egypt is not going to help Hamas for the same reason it closed its border with Gaza – because the Muslim Brotherhood seeks to destroy the government of Egypt. The Syrian regime has already been overthrown. So, what's left? The Houthis?
1. He actively aided and abetted a "genocide"
2. Israel is a strategic liability
3. October 7th is blowback, pure and simple
4. The Arab leaders do not represent the will of their people and eventually will fall.
Glad you put genocide in quotations. It’s the only thing you got right there
I am an attorney.
However, the slaughter speaks for itself and does not need to be authenticated by western legal constructs and jargon.
1-3 are demonstrably accurate. 4 is a prediction that I am quite certain of.
@disqus_lbkuZ0DrY6:disqus@disqus_dw0PWv6cnf:disqus
1. Israel is an “ally” because they recycle millions of dollars into our political system to be treated preferentially. Israel has no interest in the well-being of America if it doesn’t benefit them directly. Why else would they have given us the USS Liberty incident? Why else would they have pushed us into the Iraq war? I can’t believe you would bring up the incidental deaths of American Jews in Israel, many of whom served in the IDF, as a direct intentional attack on America and yet ignore events like the Liberty.
2. See point 1 above. You don’t think $100 million from Miriam Adelson (and the power of the Israel Lobby in general) is instrumental in Trump “supporting Israel”?
3. Correct, the cause of Oct 7 was the well deserved hatred of captive Palestinians who had suffered decades of ethnic cleansing and murder at the hands of Jews, in Gaza and what was Palestine before.
4. Irrelevant. No country wants to take in refugees if it doesn’t have to but most countries don’t want to take in people from a land they shouldn’t have to, and don’t want to, leave in the first place.
Thank you for that.
You are welcome.
No, being kicked out might well be better for them. They are living in Hell.
Sentiments of a defeated attitude. "We teach life, Sir!"
The Democrats had to be taught they can't take Arab and Muslim votes for granted. And they can punish Trump as well through their votes. Demographics is destiny.
The art of the deal: An American president threatening the oppressed indigenous population of Palestine with expulsion and ethnic cleansing in the cynical hope of pressuring them to accept his forthcoming Zionist approved proposal for "peace". Why do they hate us?
Pay them for the land. The US has spent trillions on wars to make Israel possible. The least it can do is give the Palestinians some of that largesse.
At this point we can no longer blame Trump but the world that sits by watching him to take over and one country after another is caving to his demands. and he knows it that's why the demands get bigger, larger by the day.
At this point I believe the world realizes that they are dealing with a mad man and if they don't obey he will fire off nukes adn destroy the whole planet.
A pathetic excuse…! We destroy your homes with our 2000-lb bombs via Israeli jets so we can bring up your homelessness reason for your evacuations…!
What if they refuse? Will President Trump ask Israel to forcefully remove about 1.8 million persons because we are not going to do that. Would any US soldier do that?
No, Trump will provide Bibi Bozo with the means to slaughter the remainder of the Palestinian population in Gaza.
The US Political system has – yet again – proved it is utterly incapable of producing suits with as much as an ounce of humanity inside.
What creeps we and our friends have become. We are a mob – not a community.
A 50-Year Occupation: Israel’s Six-Day War Started With a Lie
https://theintercept.com/2017/06/05/a-50-year-occupation-israels-six-day-war-started-with-a-lie/
"…that the US may support the ethnic cleansing of the territory."
The USA already DOES support the ethnic cleansing of Gaza – by deportation or death. All Trump has done is put personal financial interests (underwritten by US military & US foreign policy) at the fore.
If the Palestinians are forced out to the last man, I do so hope that Hamas can seed the entire region with radioisotopes (dirty-bomb style) that will (Cesium) salt the land for thousands of years. Gamma-scorched earth.
This may be quite good for the Palestinians, in an indirect way.
The reaction in the Arab world and in both US parties has been clear — this is not going to happen.
However, the reaction in Israel is equally clear — this is exactly what they want. Exposed. Impossible.
Better yet, it effectively blocks further killing in Gaza, as the US makes that over into an attack on the US ownership of the issue. It gives Netanyahu the political backing to stop, and leaves him less choice.
I'm not suggesting Trump's off the cuff comments were so carefully calculated nor had much foresight, but the way it is working out might be really quite good. It won't ever be what he said, but it nonetheless may stop Israel when nothing else has.
Joe did this.
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/75b017fe7d769f10688760650df4f7f8ad999d50f7ad1566c2e129094497dda0.jpg
Trump wants to turn Gaza into Atlantic City. No poor people allowed.