Biden Gives Ukraine More Cluster Bombs During Zelensky Visit

128 thoughts on “Biden Gives Ukraine More Cluster Bombs During Zelensky Visit”

1. A year ago US officials said that the use of cluster ammunition is a war crime. So they denounced themselves as war criminals.

   1. A few years ago Russia said that the US invasion of Iraq was a war crime.
      So they denounced themselves as war criminals.

      1. Yes, both overgrown street gangs as Knapp calls them. But notice the stark differences in the ramifications each country suffered because of their war crimes or even the differences in excuses for their war crimes. No sanctions on the US. Zilch. And Iraq was on the other side of the world and didn’t pose one iota of a threat to US security. Ukraine is right next door to Russia and was being courted to join an anti-Russian military alliance. And alliance that had already been surrounding Russia after giving assurances that they wouldn’t which was the impetus for the cold war ending. That same alliance that had conducted continuous war games on Russia’s border from Ukrainian territory and had many more planned if Russia hadn’t invaded. And finally, just look at the differences of the brutality of the two war criminal’s invasions. Game set and match to the number one war criminal on the planet. USA! USA!

         1. Yes, the US had fewer and less compelling excuses for its invasion of Iraq than Russia had for its invasion of Ukraine. The invasion of Iraq was “unprovoked,” while there were clear “provocations” involved in the invasion of Ukraine.

            As to brutality, my impression is that both the Russian and Ukrainian forces are at least as brutal as the US forces, and neither side seems even as convincing as the US (which wasn’t very convincing) with the “look at all the pretty stuff we’re building them” and “look, we cured children’s cancer and bought them soccer balls” bullshit … but it may be a long time, if ever, before we get a really clear picture.

            1. My impression was the brutality was more one sided in favor of the US. That might be because of the toys they possessed in comparison, but Fallujah keeps popping into my head.

            2. I think we may be using different definitions of “brutality.”

               In terms of combat, 18 months of grinding attrition warfare are far more “brutal” than a few weeks of shock and awe. More combat deaths, more combat injuries, more soldiers coming mentally unstrung from the constant artillery impacts and strain of waiting for the next shoe to drop, more civilians displaced, hungry, cowering through air raids, etc. for longer.

               I wasn’t thinking of that kind of “brutality,” though I was thinking of Abu Ghraib type of brutality toward prisoners, summary executions of supposed collaborators or just inconvenient civilians, etc. I’ve seen no indication that either the Ukrainians or the Russians are less predisposed toward it, and the absence of combat resolution of the dispute makes it both more practical and less visible. That kind of news tends to get out more once there are fairly stable occupation/quisling regimes such that a false sense of normalcy sets in, making outrage less of a luxury.

            3. Did Russia use the “Shock and Awe” method that we used in Iraq? I seem to recall that Russia’s was more measured and laid back, at least in the beginning.

            4. Yes. The Russians were just laid-back and chill during their rape and torture.

            5. You left out the “Viagra” part of the lie, uh, I mean, “disinformation”.

            6. You’re in denial, jaggoff.

               https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/09/russias-war-ukraine-synonymous-torture-un-expert

               https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/03/1134732

            7. No “denial”, just experience of seeing the same old BS decade after decade. Thou “Skankie”, Neocon d1rtb@g. 🙂

            8. And didn’t Kaiser Saddam Putin’s forces bayonet babies in incubators before-or-after dumping them on the floor ? I think a diplomat’s daughter told me that…

            9. Same bull$h1t, different war. Never changes. Every time. And, nobody remembers ! Makes you want to laugh, if it weren’t so tragic.

            10. Sometimes (often) humor is my only way thru.

            11. Did Russia use decades of grinding sanctions on civilians to soften Iraq up before the blitzkr.. er, ” shock and awe”?

            12. Or kill 500,000 with sanctions, like some indispensable nation did?

            13. Within its ability to do so — which wasn’t as great as that of the US — Russia’s been imposing sanctions on Ukraine for at least 15 years (in 2009, Lavrov and Poroshenko at least temporarily agreed to drop travel sanctions on each others’ citizens).

            14. Were Russian sanctions initiated by them or was it reciprocity?

            15. Every state which issues sanctions has excuses claiming “reciprocity.”

                Excuses are like assholes. Everybody’s got one and they all stink.

            16. I’ll put it this way, who imposed that travel ban first?

            17. I’m not sure. Regimes sanction each other with travel bans, withdrawal or expulsion of diplomatic personnel, seizure of assets, etc. all the time. They always cite a reason, and they always claim the reason is “reciprocity” for some wrong done to them (or, in the case of the US, to the “international rules-based order.”

                For example, in 2016, the Kremlin announced

                It’s just that I’ve been looking for the Poroshenko / Lavrov event in ‘09 but without success.
                The big news then was the pilfering of gas transiting Ukraine from Russia to the EU ( and still is despite everything going on ).
                All things considered, I’d say the Russians have acted with great restraint over Ukraines provocations up until now.

            18. It’s just that I’ve been looking for the Poroshenko / Lavrov event in ‘09 but without success.

                Here you go.

            19. Thanks.

            20. There were NO sanctions. Russia disconnected gas supplies for chronic non-payment and systematic stealing from transnational pipelines, not to mention daily shelling of civilians in the Donetsk region relentlessly and continuously regardless of any ceasefire agreements.

            21. “There were no sanctions. As proof, here’s a sanction.”

            22. Cancellation of service for non-payment is a sanction?

            23. “Sanction, v. to attach a sanction or penalty to the violation of (a right, obligation, or command) … to impose a sanction or penalty upon”

            24. Evasive.

            25. Yep, that’s the criticism of Putin that he was much too soft on Ukraine at the start of the conflict. I’m sure he had his reasons but he didn’t go in like the evil empire(U.S) when they launched their shock and awe. Really it was like a beer league softball team up against the New York Yankees.

            26. A few weeks of shock and awe that ended up killing well north of 150,000 civilians and maiming many more… If you’re dead, you’re just dead, doesn’t matter how long after shock and awe started the ball rolling.

            27. In terms of combat, 18 months of grinding attrition warfare are far more “brutal” than a few weeks of shock and awe.

                Well, if you want to compare what we’ve done to Iraq as compared to what Russia has done in Ukraine we can’t just limit it to the time period of the “shock and awe” as compared to the 18 months of this war. After the made for TV war in 1991, we did 12 years of sanctions that killed hundreds of thousands, mostly women and children. And then we did our shock and awe and occupied their country while allowing the ethnic cleansing of the Iraqi neighborhoods before we did a SURGE. We basically destroyed their society along with destroying their infrastructure. So, I respectfully disagree with your assessment.

            28. And now it begins in Africa the new frontier of battle for the US before the epic struggle with China. As we used to say in the Army,different day,same shit.

            29. Don’forget Dresden,Tokyo and Wounded Knee. The beat goes om like a merry go round.

            30. “Our” side stopped negotiations to end the war. Three times. Rules-based, you know.

            31. I have no idea which side you’re on. I’m on the anti-war, anti-state (but I repeat myself) side, which stopped nothing.

            32. Yes, and the hundreds of thousands of Iraq’s that died because of the war and U.S. sanctions won’t have to worry about playing soccer and will never get cancer. Thanks alot U.S.

            33. I don’t have forever, and I’m not even a little confused about who has committed the worst transgressions on a global scale.
                If you think they have been even remotely alike, then color me very surprised.
                With the Russians, most of the atrocities have been visited upon them not far from their borders, in the twentieth century at least. With the US, it has been going on non-stop for over a hundred years – all across the world – and counting.

                Obviously you may disagree, but AFAIC, the Hegemon wins the cruelty award hands down.b
                We have become monsters.

            34. I see no reason to pretend that cruel /= cruel just because one particular cruel entity may have topped the list of cruel entities.

                As for Russian activity in the 20th century, part of that depends on what you mean by “Russian.” There’s a habit among supporters of Russia here to brag about how “Russia” defeated the Nazis, but then when its alliance with the Nazis or any other actions are mentioned, oh, no, that wasn’t “Russia, that was the Soviet Union.” It’s kind of one or the other.

                If you consider the Soviet Union and Russia to have been largely one and the same in the 20th century, then please give me a geography lesson on how close Algeria, Angola, Congo, Egypt, Ethiopia, Guinea, Vietnam, Cuba, Nicaragua, Grenada, and Syria (all offhand) were to its borders.

            35. Meh.
                There are no “supporters” of Russia here. There are, however a few unquestioning supporters of the US/Ukraine, who make no bones about the notion that they approve of supplying any and all forms of weaponry, no matter how many civilians it kills or maims.
                My position is as clear as crystal. This conflict was organized and orchestrated over decades by several administrations in Washington DC.
                I don’t really care how you see it, but beyond legalistic bullshit, there is an underlying reality that my government routinely tries to destroy and or otherwise intimidate any entity which challenges its rule, and has been doing same as long as I’ve been on this planet.
                The Russians made their calculations and took actions they believe necessary to ensure their survival as a nation. They also happen to be taking responsibility for those actions without voicing BS about freedom and democracy, two concepts which DC has trampled and pissed on for all of my adult life.
                I don’t have to root for the Russians to hold the views I do. My views are driven by the behavior of my own government, which reeks of moral and ethical decay and corruption. The Russian people can arrive at their own conclusions about the actions taken by their government, something to which I can contribute nothing.

            36. “The Russians made their excuses and took actions they believe necessary to ensure their discretionary authority as a state is maximized.”

                Fixed, no charge.

            37. Fixed without any significant difference. Jargon.

            38. God Damn OG you are eloquent and accurate.

            39. Great comment. But there are some Russian supporters here. But they are few and far between.

            40. Ask the Native Americans or the Africans imported if the US is made of monsters.How about women in red states who can’t get abortions they need? Ask the whistleblowers who are prosecuted for telling the truth.

            41. Keep on rocking in the free world!

            42. Not to mention the ukro-heroes using Ukrainian civilians as human shields all the time.

            43. “As to brutality, my impression is that both the Russian and Ukrainian forces are at least as brutal as the US forces.” Wrong again, for the reasons I explained earlier.
                Russia’s op would’ve been over in 48 hours if Russia used “shock and awe” tactics and did not stick to 1:10 collateral damage to legitimate target ratio. In Iraq, the ever-so-brave us of A allowed a 1:1 ratio.

         2. Then again, Russia didn’t have to make up a reason for it.

            1. To me, it was the fact that the reasons weren’t subsiding. It was inevitable. A real “Mission Accomplished” by the war party.

         3. Dennis Kucinich read the articles of impeachment against President George W. Bush. The reaction from congress….crickets.

            1. That was a long time ago in a different Universe. They had more then enough evidence to convict Trump but he is still walking around raising money for his massive legal fees. Want to bet on how his cases wind up or who the next President will be??

         4. Succinct and well said to anyone interested in truth instead of war lovers propaganda.

      2. Yea, I remember when the U.S. Government said they wouldn’t seek to add any other countries to NATO and had no intentions on encircling Russia with bases. You have to be the outright winner when it comes to being the stupidest most uninformed person on this site. You make Irrational Thinker sound like a genius. God pities damn fools and cripples, and you don’t limp.

         1. Then Putin’s brutality in Chechnya and Georgia — along with his “intervention” in the Ukrainian civil war — changed everything. Things and situations change over time. You see things and want things to remain the same — like a child. (That’s your conservative mind getting in the way of reality.)

            1. Chechnya seems to have kissed and made up and now fighting side by side in a righteous cause.
               Georgia started the war and are damned luck the Russia didn’t erase them from the map.

            2. They will all be dancing when Putin has been dispatched.

            3. Zel will be dancing at the end of a rope.

            4. Not gonna happen.

      3. Source?

         All I could find were Russian statements that the US invasion of Iraq violated international law, was a grave mistake, etc. I could not find one instance of the term “war crime” being used by anyone in the Russian government in this regard. Perhaps you know of one? The Russians are usually pretty careful about what they say, and don’t say. At the time (2003), Putin still held out for good relations with the USA, and was not about to accuse it or its president of a war crime!

         It might be relevant here that neither the USA nor Russia recognize the war crime of aggression, as it was only recently added to the statutory list of crimes within the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court, and has not won anything close to universal acceptance. And, of course, besides that, neither the USA nor Russia have agreed to the jurisdiction of the ICC at all. With the USA taking the further step of authorizing POTUS to use force against the ICC, if it ever dares to prosecute or arrest a US citizen, soldier, or official. Note also that the current Western (ie US) backed indictment of Putin by the ICC is for something other than the crime of aggression. Pretty clear the US does not want any precedent about that!

         On the other hand, Jan Psaki, offical White House spokesperson, actually did (despite the use of cluster bombs by the US and its allies/clients/customers, and the refusal of both countries to sign the anti cluster bomb treaty) claim that Russia’s alleged use of cluster bombs was “potentially a war crime.”

         https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/cluster-bombs-ukraine-biden-congress/#:~:text=Shortly%20after%20the%20Russian,%E2%80%9Cpotentially%20a%20war%20crime.%E2%80%9D

         So, the two situations are not the same. Unless, again, you can actually demonstrate that a Russian official said what you say they said.

         1. Julio is blowing smoke out of his arse…..like he always does. Makes claims without any proof.

            1. I think Dummy Don and Ratty Sphincter are Russian trolls sent by Putin to make the neocons look ridiculous..

      4. Aoples and oranges. Redefine reality to suit your fancy. How about lies about weapons of mass destruction? And why are not our weapons also weapons of mass destruction? Because we Gods — them cattle.

         We threatened Russia openly. Armed Ukraine little dictator to teeth, and refused to sign guarantees Russia asked for to clatmrify that those weapins are not aimed at Russia, nor aimed at Russian speaking citizens of Ukraine.

         In the front of the whole world — US and NATO separately rebuffed the diplimacy and any security guarantees, Russia then in the frint of the whole world submitted dicuments to UN. specifying the reasons under UN Charter the defensive nature of its military operation.

         We continue conducting wars of choice. wars that cause untold harm to human beings.

         Why? Because maintaining supremacy is our alpha and omega in global afairs. Empire maintenance is costly.

         Especially now when we provoked a military power, and it accepted the challenge,

   2. Now it’s not a war crime because rules based order or some sh!t. /s

      1. “When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

         “The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

         ’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”

      2. Those rules are not much different from the rules of Nazi Germany where different races had different rights and some races had no rights at all.

   3. Do you have a citation for your statement that “US officials said the use of cluster ammunition is a war crime?” I agree that the use of cluster munitions should be a war crime. But I do not recall a US official ever claiming the use of cluster ammunition is illegal. The US, Russia and Ukraine are among the minority of countries that refused to sign the treaty criminalizing cluster munitions.

      1. You speak like a lawyer. In any case legalistic niceties like yours are bullshit ways to sidestep morality and ethics.

         1. Where can you find morality and ethics in a shyster for example Dershowitz?

      2. Shortly after Russian invasion of Ukraine, when fake reports circulated regarding Russian use of cluster bombs, a reporter asked then White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki about the Biden administration’s response to an action that was “potentially a war crime.”
         “We have seen the reports,” replied Psaki on February 28, 2022. “If that were true, it would be a war crime.”

         1. Honesty from an administration spokesperson. The world will turn on its axis before it happens again.

      3. You really should do your own digging. But I too was curious so I found this article.

         https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/cluster-bombs-ukraine-biden-congress/

2. War Criminal, helluva CV, Joey. There’s never a good excuse for contributing to war crimes, Mr President.

   1. There’s not enough Prevagen in the world to help Dementia Joe.

      1. Had to look up what Prevagen is, and you are spot on. A continuous IV feeding couldn’t dent that pudding brain. I truly believe Biden is dead. Let’s call him President Bernie.

         1. LOL.

         2. Reminds me of that country song “Prop Me Up Beside the Jukebox if I Die”

3. Any [non-lethal]help for Libya? Palestine? No??? Tells you all you need to know bout the lack of morality…

   1. No help for East Palestine either and $700 checks for Maui. Meanwhile roads crumble, houses are more unaffordable, and medical costs increase while quality tumbles. The federal government won’t help its own citizens, much less folks it has impoverished elsewhere. But plenty of $ for Republican and Democrat donors

      1. East Palestine’s name doomed it from the start. No AIPAC toadie in Congress would risk the publicity of it.

      2. Medical behemoths are purchasing medical offices, insurances, consolidating. A sh*t storm against citizens and doctors. Medical assist by bean counter.

         1. I get my medical treatments at the VA and for twenty years they have been understafffed and underpaid as well as overwealmed.

      3. Let us not forget a classic moment,paper towels for Puerto Rico.

4. Soon the news will show Abrams tanks blown to pieces on the Ukraine battlefield, just like everything else we send over there to this impossible to win war for Ukraine

   1. They are reluctant to send Abrams to Ukraine because pictures with burning Abrams are not good for Abrams manufacturers. “Counter offensive” is coming to it’s logical end and no one yet seen Abrams over there.

      1. Yeah. Russian T-72s can’t even take out Ukrainian modified T-64s. I think the Abrams will be OK.

         https://www.newsweek.com/video-shows-ukraine-t-64-tank-sneak-attack-russian-t-72-1829059

         1. And of course you Irrational Thinker rely upon government media outlets like Newsweek. Yes, they surely wouldn’t push the government line. Never.

            1. Sure. That T-64 didn’t really destroy that T-72, no matter what your lying eyes see!

               I didn’t really see Boebert giving that guy a handy either!

   2. Uh, Oh…

      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-09-22/us-set-to-send-limited-number-of-atacms-missiles-to-ukraine#xj4y7vzkg

      Let’s see how these do, huh, gang?

   3. It does not matter how many tanks the Russians destroy. The US will just keep making more. That also applies to any planes that get shot down. If and when they start with China they probably can’t replace the Aircraft Carriers.

5. Sounds like a bit of a cluster f-ck to me.

   1. Donna,the average working man or woman on the street Black or White could make better decisions for our lives then all the Yale or Harvard graduates working in Government or sucking the public teat.

      1. Touché!

         1. Thanks for your support. I have suspected for a long time that people who want to run for office should nut

         2. I love it when your flower appears. I know it will be worth reading as different from some other people.

6. The gift that keeps on giving.

7. To get around the law, Biden invoked an obscure provision of the Foreign Assistance Act that allows the US to provide weapons regardless of export controls if the president determines doing so is vital for national security.

   I guess Hitl,..er I mean Putin wasn’t going to stop with just the conquering of Europe.

   1. Today, the Donbass, tomorrow, Peoria …

      1. Arizona

      2. 😂

   2. Haha, I juuust Copied that same section to comment on. What a walking indictment of US policy it is.

      On the plus side, if the Russian Federation decides to (Invasion USA II) from west to east, perhaps DC can find some money for Maui.

8. .50 caliber machine guns to counter Unmanned Aerial Systems

   really. how many .50 caliber machine guns does it take to counter some Unmanned Aerial Systems? wait, what

9. Zel’s legacy for years to come…

10. The USA/NATO nations are governed by war criminals. Honor has become a foreign word for our government officials. The same is true for the establishment elite, people who are intellectually and morally totally bankrupt.

    1. ++++

    2. As usual you know how to turn a phrase.

11. “Vital to national security”. A proxy war thousands of miles away.

    1. When you put it that way it makes sense. Getting Japan and Australia against China is just the next gambit.

12. So from the latest 300 million Biden wants to give, some of it goes to paying Ukrainians soldiers salary. That’s so bizarre.

    1. Meanwhile Amerikkkan vets are taking their own lives by the thousands for lack of psychiatric care…

13. And I ask myself, is there anything this gang of cretins won’t resort to to keep their proxy pocketpool game going?
    Just kidding, asked and answered.

    1. “pocketpool”
       i give up. hey at least you at least named yourself. “old”
       i give up. omg um. i just invented a new word = “um”
       edit = wait what? omg i just gave up twice in a row, didn’t I.
       exclamation mark.
       wait, “exclamation mark” is that a real thing or did i just reveal myself to be an assh*le !!!

       1. Well I have just passed 80, so yeah, I’m old. Old enough in fact to remember a whole load of coups, invasions, proxy wars, interventions, crippling sanctions, outright wars (against actual, you know, governments), occupations, theft of other nations’ resources, betrayal of allies, threats and intimidation, …
          I’m on the cusp of walking away from this venue despite having met a whole bunch of really decent people, for the simple reason that nothing is going to change in the time I have left. Every damned day, I find myself getting really pissed off when I see or hear from the Idiot in Chief, or any of his hangers on in his party, in DC, in Europe…
          Maybe a vacation from hearing about the lunatics who took over our so-called government is a good way to go.
          For now good night to all of you and let’s hope the landlord hasn’t already decided to cancel our lease on this beautiful planet.

          1. Ditto!!

          2. OK i am just a boy-boy compared to you. wait, what? OMG you and the other old guy Dr. Other Guy =
             is it cool if i just extend a salute towards both of yalls”
             hold on a minute i think that everybody around here is approximately the same age as my Mama. so just shut up yalls old ladies! exclamation mark

          3. But it’s good to vent. I want to be talking with you 10 years from now.

          4. Great stuff OG,I feel the same way. Us old geezers will be gone by the time that the situation becomes intolerable and unsolvable. I feel sorry for all the young people who will either have to live with the shit storm that has evolved or die in misery. this planet may be FUBAR.

    2. Absolutely nothing is too low and foul for the PTB to control the world and make huge profits for the Masters of Mankind and the MIC while people all over the world staeve and die as a result of the US foreign and domestic policies. When Ronald Reagan used the term {Evil Empire} he was speaking about the wrong countries. It has not gotten much better since. The later leaders Slick Willie,George W,Cheney,Barrack Obama,Donald Trump and Sleepy Joe have not been any better.All fail the test of intelligence and humanity IMHO. Where we go from here is literally up in the air?

14. Just wondering when uncle joey is going to adopt Zelensky as his next long-lost son. They look cute together, don’t you think? Two pea brains in a skull case.

    1. And Joeblow could adopt Zelensky and set up a billion dollar account for him. Probably already happened. Don’ t forget 10% for Joe.

    2. Nasty but true.

    3. Brilliant.

15. So are tactical nukes next? Mustard gas? CIA Black sites?

16. If anyone thinks this isn’t all about money for the US military-industrial complex, let me quote one of the defenders of the whole thing, Erick-Woods Erickson:

    —–
    Sixty-one cents of every dollar we give to Ukraine comes back to the United States as weapons system purchases.

    Ninety cents of every dollar we give Ukraine is in the form of a loan that the European Union guarantees. So, if Ukraine does not pay us back, Europe will. Europe is spending two dollars for every one dollar we are spending.

    …

    [W]hile Ukraine returns sixty-one cents of every dollar to American military suppliers in the form of purchases, Ukraine also pays back the
    American government the same sixty-one cents we loaned them for the purchases. It is a remarkably good deal for the United States that
    undermines the Russians, keeps American citizens from having to fight the Russians, helps Ukraine secure its freedom, and creates jobs for Americans from Alabama to California.
    —–

    1. I long for a time where that would piss off the majority of our citizens.

       1. Maybe the people would if they only knew.

          If only the MSM would do its job, but millionaire journalists have sold their professional honor a long time ago, and still they want more money.

    2. Great post.

17. In what way are Biden and his people and the members of congress morally better than Hitler and his people?
    The German people were collectively held responsible for the crimes of Hitler. It took many years to change that thinking.

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