The Pentagon announced on Tuesday that the US will begin training 100 Ukrainian soldiers how to use Patriot missile defense systems as soon as next week on US soil at Fort Sill, Oklahoma.
Patriots are considered the most advanced US-made air defense system. Maintaining and operating one battery requires about 90 soldiers, and military experts say training takes about six months.
The Ukrainians are set to receive an expedited version of the training, but US military officials say it will still take “several months.” The US pledged to give Ukraine one Patriot system as part of a $1.85 Billion weapons package announced in December. Germany has also announced that it will be sending Ukraine a Patriot missile battery.
POLITICO first reported in December that the US military was considering training Ukrainian forces on the Patriots inside the US, a plan that will deepen Washington’s involvement in the war. The US has been training thousands of Ukrainians how to use US-provided weapons at its bases in Germany and elsewhere in Europe but hasn’t had similar training inside the US since Russia invaded Ukraine.
Russia strongly warned the US against providing the Patriots to Kyiv, saying the systems would become a target for Russia’s armed forces. But like most Russian warnings, it was ignored, and the US continues to escalate military aid, most recently by pledging Bradley Fighting Vehicles for the first time as part of an arms package worth over $3 billion.
I’m feeling psychic…. I feel a war in our future…..
A global thermonuclear war
Possibly…
Probably 😐
I’m feeling optimistic… I feel a multi-polar world in our future!
You are an optimist. 🙂
For the current level of the human evolution, a multi-polar world is the only reasonable option.
It’s also pretty much the only option that has ever existed, including now.
The problem is, sometimes the ruling elite of one of the big countries is starting to dream about the full spectrum dominance over the whole planet.
Lol.
I must say, Thomas; most folks here including myself are biased which works against our personal claims of being ‘antiwar,’
I truly appreciate your neutrality in spite of some claiming you are not.
And even when it is me the recipient of your heat, I’d say, keep it coming for I too need an objective counter sometimes.
I’m not “neutral” — I’m an anarchist. I hate all of the involved regimes and want to see them all fall and be replaced with nothing of similar composition.
Which, I admit, is unlikely.
In the meantime, people on Twitter call me a Russian troll for doubting the US/EU/NATO /Ukraine regime line, and people here pretend I support the Ukrainian regime because I raise the bullshit flag on their pretense that the Russian regime is any better.
That’s honest.
“a plan that will deepen Washington’s involvement in the war ” – it was a 100% US war from it’s beginning in 2014. Both coups 2004 and 2014 were organized by US. Merkel and Hollande, who sabotaged Minsk Agreements, also were taking orders from Washington the same as Boris Johnson who went to Kiev in April 2022 with mission to force Zelensky to abandon the negotiations with Moscow. It is American imperialistic war for the dominance of Eurasian continent. That’s why Russia and China stay together.
I do not comprehend how some people here and elsewhere maintain the fantasy that this isn’t Washington’s war.
The only training the Ukrainians need in operating the Patriot is 1) how to turn on the radar, and 2) how to run, because shortly after the system lights up some number of HARM missiles are going to be headed toward it. Warnings you can ignore, missiles you can’t.
Is that not true of all SAMs systems? So why do countries including Russia (S-400) keep making them?
The latest Russian SAM system is the S-500, fielded 2021. The Patriot system was fielded 1981. It’s not especially mobile and wasn’t designed to survive the latest counter air suppression systems, particularly hypersonic maneuvering warheads, and like most such systems it’s best used against mostly defenseless third worlders. Against full up Russians it 1) lights up, it 2) blows up.
Raytheon engineers have constantly upgraded and redesigned the Patriot system since 1981. And they continue to do so. You don’t know and I don’t either what changes has been made to the system to handle hypersonic. Given the history of how Western electronic warfare has dominated Russia/USSR electronic warfare over the years, I will bet that Russia can’t just take it out when it is turn on.
How is the Patriot system not especially mobile?
Given the history of US and Israeli losses to Soviet SAMs, I will bet that Russia knows a thing or two about putting a missile on target. And I know what changes haven’t been made to the Patriot. It hasn’t been upgraded to stealth, because there’s no such thing for an active radar system. I know the missiles haven’t been upgraded to high L/D maneuvering intercept. I know the fastest processors in Christendom aren’t going to make up for a fundamental performance mismatch. I know that if a Patriot radar ever lights up in Ukraine a salvo of hypersonic missiles are coming after it, and it won’t outrun them.
“It Ain’t What You Don’t Know That Gets You Into Trouble. It’s What You Know for Sure That Just Ain’t So.” — attributed to various writers
That’s especially true of either under or over-estimating the capabilities of weapons systems, radar systems, electronic countermeasures, etc. All of the regimes involved presumably know things that are in fact so, and aren’t telling you those things.
The big picture is that the Patriot is fundamentally a 1980s system up against systems of the 2000s specifically designed to counter it, and Russia has the initiative. The Patriots would be deployed piecemeal fashion in a theater the Russians have already set up shop in. They would be like ducks in a shooting gallery, and the enlightened fringe of the MIC knows it. Oklahoma or bust. Expect them to stay there.
Yes, the Patriot is an older system, which may or may not be very effective against newer Russian systems.
But so far the evidence you’ve offered for that likelihood boils down to you wanting very, very much for it to be so.
You do have one thing right, though — the deployment looks minimal or, at best, piecemeal, and therefore unlikely to have much effect whether the system itself is effective or not. I’m surprised they’re not sending more, faster, if for no other reason than to justify forking over big money to the MIC to replace them with newer stuff.
The US is the aggressor and those generally deserve to lose but my analysis is I think reasonably objective as far as it goes. As for evidence, I suspect we won’t be getting any because the Patriots will sit the war out safely in OK. And yeah, deploying assets piecemeal, in dribs and drabs, on a political schedule, is pretty much synonymous with military debacle. Then again, if you’re after cash flow I guess it makes sense. Keep it going and stretch it out. And out with the old, in with the new.
“Against full up Russians it 1) lights up, it 2) blows up.”
Really? Examples? Any video?
The Patriot has never been fielded against state of the art countermeasures. I would say keep checking YouTube but deployment is on Okie time, and not by chance.
If the Patriot has never been fielded against state of the art countermeasures, then by definition those countermeasures have never been fielded against the Patriot.
That’s the whole purpose of the training. Shoot, move, communicate. Take out the threat without been hit utilizing a synergistic effect with other surface to air defense systems working as early warning and back up counter measures.
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe. Tell it to the coroner.
Is that your wonderland escape line?
No, I’m comparing your string of techno adjectives to Jabberwocky. “Synergistic” is one of my favorites. If war was a Power Point presentation your kind would asset leverage the optimization right out of it.
It’s still a word but you point is well taken.
So how soon do Rooskie suicide drones attack Oklahoma. We have conducted strikes deep into Russia so that Rubicon has been crossed. “Load them drones in next to the fentanyl!”
“So how soon do Rooskie suicide drones attack Oklahoma”. As soon as they can build one to fly 8000 miles. LOL BTW What is in Oklahoma worth attacking? Double LOL.
Ukranian troops training on Patriot missiles is what is there. And I envision the drones being launched from just a few miles away from people who have come through the open Southern border. That’s what my reference to fentanyl was about.
I feel safer knowing Harper probably isn’t doing fentanyl 😉
I envision World Peace.
I envision a world without Super Powers bullying the little countries (i.e. US/China/Russia)
I envision a world without Super Powers annexing neighboring countries (i.e. Russia).
Hating on America again.
Geography is your friend. There are countries closer to the southern US than Russia.
“POLITICO first reported in December that the US military was considering training Ukrainian forces on the Patriots inside the US, a plan that will deepen Washington’s involvement in the war. The US has been training thousands of Ukrainians how to use US-provided weapons at its bases in Germany and elsewhere in Europe but hasn’t had similar training inside the US since Russia invaded Ukraine.”
The Russians are ok with the US training Ukrainians on this system, and other US provided weapons, in Germany but not Oklahoma? Why? Are those systems more lethal when the training is in the US?
“The Russians are ok with the US training Ukrainians on this system, and other US provided weapons, in Germany but not Oklahoma” – where did you got such an interesting information from?
The Russians are not OK with it wherever it takes place.
And the US wasn’t OK with the Russians training North Vietnamese SAM crews, wherever that training took place.
The question isn’t who’s OK with what — it’s what who can and will do about it.
There you go again. The question in this thread is whether the Russians are OK with it. Read the post I replied to.
That was my point.
That really wasn’t clear.
I agree. I should have been clearer. I just didn’t get why the US would think where the training takes place would make a difference when it comes to deepening involvement.
“US to Begin Training Ukrainians on Patriot Missiles in Oklahoma Next Week The training will be expedited but is still expected to take a few months”
Will Ukraine exist in a few months?
Regardless, a Patriot missile cost between $3 and $6 Million depending on the model. One patriot battery contains between 4 and 16 missiles. They are very expensive and still cannot intercept hypersonic missiles.
The biggest drawback is that the Patriot is not a mobile system. It will sit in a fixed location with a fragile radar system making it vulnerable to attack.
Add to these issues you must fire two Patriot missiles at each inbound target.
What is the success rate of the Patriot?
“The Army initially said the Patriot achieved an 80 percent success rate in Saudi Arabia and 50 percent in Israel against the Iraqi Scud. Those claims later were scaled back to 70 percent and 40 percent.”
Sure but then the Russians have very few hypersonic missiles and have fired them very few times so not the biggest threat – given the high cost of the Patriots the Iranian drone seems a bigger threat.
So not sure about the value of the Patriot outside the propaganda one.
My guess is that the future operators of this system won’t be long for the world once they get back home.
Is that your guess or your hope?
What don’t you GET, Kenneth? I don’t wish for ANYone’s death, which is why we need to negotiate our way out of this shitshow ASAP.
And gifting Ukraine with ever more weapons ain’t gonna achieve this objective.
“The Army initially said the Patriot achieved an 80 percent success rate in Saudi Arabia and 50 percent in Israel against the Iraqi Scud. Those claims later were scaled back to 70 percent and 40 percent.” That data is nearly 30 years old. The missile system has evolved since then.
And oh by the way, the Patriot system is all truck mounted, so it can be moved at will.
So have the missile systems it’s intended to defend against.
Of course. Warfare technology is constantly changing. What is the old saying about old generals plan to fight the next war like the last.
Every time I read the article title, I kinda laugh. It just sounds so funny and strange…
On 10 January 2023, in the late afternoon, official media sources of the Russian Wagner PMC stated that the cirty of Soledar had been liberated by Russian units. Soledar was one of the key points of defence of the AFU in the East of Ukraine.
It happened on 10 January 2023.
Correct ive changed the date.
Hopefully the training includes “how to not shoot Poland”
Or, perhaps, it includes “how to shoot Poland and blame Russia”.
Russia was truly sleeping behind the wheel since 2014. Now they have lots of catching up to do.
On 19 September 2014, “Russia’s Leader Putin Rejected Ukrainian Separatists’ Aim to Become Part of Russia,”, “The leader of the Ukrainian separatists says that their efforts to get Russia’s President Vladimir Putin to accept their territory as being a part of Russia have been firmly rejected by Putin’s government; and, so, ‘We will build our own country.’”
And, ever since then, Putin has been very clear in all of his communications with Merkel and other foreign leaders, that Russia would not accept that region as being a part of Russia. He also made clear his reason: He wants the people in that region — who had voted 90%+ for a neutralist person, Yanukovych, to lead Ukraine — to remain within Ukraine’s electorate, so as to provide the necessary moderating element and counterbalance to the rabidly anti-Russian racists that were placed into power in Ukraine by Obama’s February 2014 coup.
In other words: before the SMO not only was the Ukrainian government not at war with the Russian government, but Russia’s leader, Vladimir Putin, was doing everything he could to prevent such a war from occurring.
Now that the Russia’s leader, Vladimir Putin has accepted the Donbass into Russia this signals a big change in Moscow’s position. It means that Moscow is now at war with NATO and the West.
Why is this place always teaming with Commies? Good lord, I don’t support our quest for WWIII but it takes two to tango. Ever hear the song, man in the mirror? Perhaps you should play it for Putin and Jinping. When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. Chew on that for a while.
Chew on that and wait. Maybe Chinese liberators will come and liberate you from neocon’s yoke.
Thats an oxymoron. There is not liberation of the Chinese. Only tyranny.
Satire and irony are dead. 🙄
“Commies.” Whenever someone uses that term, particuarly in relation to Russia, it is a sure sign that they don’t know what they are talking about.
And that’s a charitable way to say it.
Jackie; My answer to your question is: they will team up with anything anti US because they want to see the West fail so they can say, ‘see, I told you, I was right.’ But all under the cover of “I’m Pro Peace or Antiwar.”
These are the kinds of things I heard before Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and Syria, and all we have to show for trillions of dollars and thousands of US military deaths is some Syrian oil.
Since you are repeating your crap, I will repeat mine.
Before: The US is the shining city on the hill.
After: Why do they hate us so much?
The kind of patriotism that you are promoting changed Before to After in the past. Your brand of patriotism is likely to be a LOT more expensive this time
Well, I’ll take it a step further and state they are likely state actor trolls from somewhere outside of the US doing exactly that. Promoting division and distrust in the US government. But it’s to an absurd almost comical degree that no rational person I know is going to relate with and suddenly feel motivated to change teams over. The world is an a very dangerous place. The US government is most certainly a bully and has it’s own issues with corruption.
What the world needs right now are rational, fair minded, humane, decent leaders. We get Biden, Jinping, Putin. It’s like following 3 lemmings off of a cliff if you don’t get a guide in front of them. There are no global statesman left. It become clear to me that once Shinzo Abe was brutally executed, there were very powerful forces at work to put us on track for WWIII.
The evil global banking cabal that really runs the world show are going to have their war, and it’s going to be horrific if a new crop of diplomats can’t save them from themselves. I don’t have any faith Jake Sullivan is going to be that guy for us.
And Jinping, has absolute power in China. In some twisted ironic way, in my mind at least, if Ukraine can succeed against all odds at thwarting Putin and embarrass Russia, it could lead to his own fall from power. But I really fear, if things get to that point, Jinping will step in and help them.
What bothers me most about all of it is we have the technology to make life better for everyone and have forever lasting peace on this planet now. Everyone could be fed and clothed that wants to be. We could clean up the environment. Build automated networks to set people free of manual labor. Engineer farming and biodiversity to create a planet that would last for generations.
The hippies had one thing right.
You may say I’m a dreamer
But I’m not the only one
I hope someday you’ll join us
And the world will live as one
Well stated, cheers to that.
What a load of crap. I’d hardly consider Lennon to be a hippie either.
On 10 January 2023, in the late afternoon, official media sources of the Russian Wagner PMC stated that the city of Soledar had been liberated by Russian units. Soledar was one of the key points of defense of the AFU in the East of Ukraine.
According to several reports, the NATO Ukronazi 46th airmobile brigade, one of the most elite NATO Ukronazi units has been wiped out. These reports also indicate that 17 Battalions have been wiped out, approx. 20,000 to 25,000 troops. It was a meat grinder.
The Russian liberation of Soledar does threaten the NATO positions in the city of Bakhmut/Artemovsk. Another meat grinder. the cities of Soledar and Artemovsk are locating smack in the middle of the NATO Ukronazi defense lines.
Here is whats really going on…….NATO is fighting Russia down the the last Ukrainian while Russia is not fighting NATO down to the last Russian.