Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky declared his country would be submitting an "accelerated" bid to join NATO on Friday. He made the announcement shortly after Russian President Vladimir Putin signed documents to formally annexing four regions of Ukraine. Zelensky said the alliance should welcome Kiev, as Ukraine is already a de facto member.
In his speech, Zelensky argued Ukraine is already a "de facto" member of NATO. "De facto, we have already proven compatibility with alliance standards. We trust each other, we help each other, and we protect each other," he said.
The Kremlin views Ukrainian membership in NATO as an existential threat to Russia. A Myriad of analysts point to Kiev’s growing ties with Brussels and Washington as the catalyst for Putin’s decision to order the invasion of Ukraine.
"We are taking our decisive step by signing Ukraine’s application for accelerated accession to NATO," Zelensky said. It is not clear what fast-track process for membership Kiev plans to apply for.
When asked about Zelensky’s remarks at a press conference on Friday, NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg said, "NATO’s door remains open." However, he stopped short of suggesting Kiev will be admitted into the alliance any time soon and stressed, "NATO is not a party to" the war in Ukraine.
US national security adviser Jake Sullivan echoed Stoltenberg saying NATO membership for Kiev is not a topic for discussion. According to Politico’s Alex Ward, Sullivan said Ukraine’s NATO status should be taken up “at a different time."
NATO members have refused to fight Russia directly and instead provided tens of billions in weapons supporting Kiev’s war effort. The Kremlin says such Western support for Ukraine amounts to a declaration of war.
Stoltenberg denounced Russia’s annexation of Ukraine’s territory. The NATO chief said, “These lands are Ukraine. Crimea is Ukraine." Stoltenberg said redrawing Russia’s borders was the “most serious escalation since the start of the war.” Last week, he said NATO would step up its support for Ukraine in response to the Russian referendum and annexation.
Additionally, Zelensky rejected any talks with Russia so long as Putin is the leader. “We are ready for a dialogue with Russia, but with another president of Russia,” he said.
Kyle Anzalone is the opinion editor of Antiwar.com, news editor of the Libertarian Institute, and co-host of Conflicts of Interest.
181 thoughts on “Zelensky Says Ukraine Already a ‘De Facto’ NATO Member”
This is simultaneously hilarious, alarming, and appalling.
Lawyers splitting hairs in the belief that such sophistry can justify them to the UN, the eventuality of prosecution, and History? … It has done before.
It doesn’t matter much the UN is controlled by Washington as are practically all international institutions even the IAEA, they could not even tell who is shelling the NPP in Ukraine.
Imagine Russia defeats Washington in Ukraine and NATO turns on Washington.
Do you think there could be something left of NATO once the EU is dissolved and nothing but debris and ashes are left?
The USA turned on its allies starting with sanctions, intentionally destroying their economy, starting with Germany, who would have thought that the leader of the alliance is so insane and turns on the alliance and deliberately kills it? Sanctions are imposed for only one reason, to destroy a nation’s economy. The destruction of Germany is deliberate. Not in my wildest dreams did I expect Biden and his criminal administration going that far. The will to destroy Germany goes back to the time before WWI THE BRITISH EMPIRE WAS DYING, Bismarck Germany and the USA were the rising powers, so the Anglo-Saxons ganged up against Germany. The NATO is ganging up for the gang rape of Russia. But NATO might wake up and notice their partner is a venomous snake, get out of bed and run. (the Brits STILL refuse to open all the Archives from WWI more than one hundred years later. ) I tend to see black here, it is the last chance to destroy Germany, more than a century is a long time to do the job. I could see the USA being a totally isolated country driving at top speed against a concrete wall several feet thick. Washington is suicidal, nihilistic.
I meant “geo-politically”, as in UN and the Hague.
If I understand you correctly I agree, laws are like Play-doh in the hands of lawyers including geopolitics.
I too think Washington has it in for Germany, but only to the extent of cutting it down to size. It needs to base military there; and it wants docile consumers who know their place.
You are right, they needed Germany after the war, that saved Germany. They needed a strong Germany, the Morgenthau plane was too extreme, the German industry was needed. China takes Germany’s place this time around if Biden gets his way. We need Russia to win to save the planet.
NATO will turn on DC when their asses on the line. They’ve been in two World Wars and have no intention to get into a third one.
Yes, that logic is compelling, … or so one would have thought. But yet they’ve already gone pretty far tempting the abyss.
Insane governments are not logical.
But, suicidal? The most civilized country in the West, home of Bach, Beethoven & Brahms? Nor is Schultz a charismatic Faustian genius type. And the conditions that gave rise to Hitler don’t obtain. How would Freud or Arendt analyze this?
Yes, das Volk der Dichter und Denker, and such a useless stupid government. Enough to make you want to cry.
But the conditions were the end result of the war and the humiliation of Versailles. After the war the German currency was wiped out and with that everything the middle class owned, then there was a blockade, people were starving and Hitler was the messiah for the people stripped naked by the victors. The USA suffered a terrible depression but that was nothing compared to Germany. Biden is driving the world in the same direction, even hindsight taught him nothing. Blinken had a very expensive education speaks French fluently and yet he is a blanc sheet. Sullivan and Nuland are the same scumbags.
It’s also true. The US and other NATO members want to play the game where they didn’t cross a (Russian) red line of NATO push, while simultaneously having NATO in Ukraine since at least 2014.
If Ukraine is made a formal NATO member, we have officially entered WWIII.
Turkey will block their entry.
There is no NATO left, it is in chaos, nothing was gained with that act of sabotage on Germany. That is what one gets when the crazies are in charge.
There are still staunch true-believers in NATO.
Like the Poles who hate the Germans and Russians and some very gullible believers in the west.
The elite in NATO is the real puzzle, are they really that insane and corrupt? There is not one statesman/woman with brain and character, not one. Insane war criminals is all we have. This war was avoidable if there had been a will to avoid it.
The war was instigated.
Biden knew all about it when Scholz visited. I wonder what he told Scholz, Biden is a devious man.
But they left their fingerprints all over the place, every time Zelensky negotiates he gets hit with a stunt gun and told to move on. He sold his soul a long time ago, too late for him to change course, he will have to go.
No argument. My point was how the US gov’t kept saying that they weren’t part of NATO while holding NATO drills inside Ukraine and training with the CIA.
We are already in “WW3”. Putin annexed the Dobas. He has been clear that if the integrity of Russia is threatened, using nuclear weapon is justified. In Russian strategy, Crime and the dosas are Russia. Therefore Ukraine is fighting and ending missiles into Russia, with full NATO support (outside Article 5). Russia is setting a trap and calling NATO’s bluff. The tragedies of Iraq and Afghanistan look like Jr. Varsity f__k-ups. The whole world ia suffering because of a border dispute in a slice of Europe.
The whole world is suffering because of a coup intended to separate Russia from partnering with anyone in Europe. Same with the sabotaging of the German economy because of its reliance on Russia for energy. The US wanted this war in an attempt to weaken or kill off Russia.
“Zelensky Says Ukraine Already a ‘De Facto’ NATO Member After
Russia annexed four Ukrainian regions, Kiev said it would apply for
“accelerated” membership in the North Atlantic alliance”
Someone needs to take the cocaine spoon away from Lord Voldomort Zelensky and put him back in his drag queen costume.
Ukraine is so doomed. LOL
Longer term, it has been left with no way out.
That has been true since it refused to honor the Minsk deal and instead started bombarding separatists. It was a choice, and Ukraine made it. But Biden backed it.
Then again, the Democratic media was able to use Ukraine against Trump, which is all that was important to them.
The Ukraine doesn’t qualify for NATO admission on several grounds, being involved in a War is the main reason.
Hard to get an insurance policy on a house that is on fire
Unless of course the fire department desires a fire to justify its existence.
Does any kind of international order exist at the present time that would prevent the U.S. and Nato from fast tracking Ukraine’s membership in NATO? Doubt it.
Zelensky Says Ukraine Already a ‘De Facto’ Non-Existent State
Is this Zelensky who is talking? Or is it Blinken speaking through Zelensky?
I’d like to think that Ukraine would have to go through the standard processes to join NATO. But if Blinken is driving this, strange things can happen.
It’s Blinken’s war and Zelensky and Biden are it’s puppets.
Yes, but Blinken is a hand puppet for the Blob, and has been since his days as adviser to the Foreign Relations Committee and Sen. Biden.
In reality Ukraine is 1/2 NATO. It gets NATO weapons support but no armies (yet).
Oh, they are there, as trainers, teachers of how to operate the toys, logistics, planning strikes. Oh yeah, they are there.
Is there any sanity left in the west? Our media has become the greatest propaganda disseminator known to mankind. We are painting a picture of evil against good instead of intelligently coming to conclusions based on reality. Pumping more weaponry will not accomplish our intended results…..
What are these results you think are “our intended results…..”?
The destruction of Russia…..
It is who we have always been. It’s just that now we live in a world we dominate by the size of our military budget and the ability to intimidate whomever we wish.
You make it sound like such a bad thing! Oh wait, it is a bad thing…. 🙂
As the classic saying goes, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Somehow, our upper class doesn’t think this could apply to them.
Yes, very True bear, but the hubris generated by their attitude and actions have destroyed our worldwide hegemony and made us vulnerable to direct challenge such as we are now experiencing. Should read we lived in a world we dominated by the size of our military budget & the ability to intimidate whomever we wished.
Now because of the war on terror distraction, we have fallen badly behind and are being challenged on two fronts simultaneously by two thermonuclear peers.
It is the reverse, our senile old man president is challenging the two nuclear powers simultaneously.
Just like the USA weaponized energy, not Russia, it honored it contracts and delivered as agreed, with never even a minor disagreement, both sides kept their word.
Ukraine was avoidable, Taiwan was a settled issue until Biden came along.
Seems to me your “we live in a world we dominate by the size of our military budget and the ability to intimidate whomever we wish.” is an era that has passed. Weakened by our Great War on Terror diversion, the East e.g. Russia & China have been shotgun wed and hugely eclipsed ‘US.”. The war in Ukraine Would not have happened were we still able to “intimidate whomever we wish.”
Time will tell. If we are eclipsed, perhaps the world can pick up the pieces and try to do something for the planet before it’s too late.
and if they only had a brain, it would not have happened.
My grandson who is all of 23 Yrs. keeps reminding me of our history. I have a difficult time accepting the fact that our leaders are not nice people…..
Be patient, you get used to it, it just takes a little time, you do have an open mind, others don’t and can never accept the truth.
With Europe out of the picture, NATO is in the frying pan. Only Russia and China combined can wipe out the US monster, it is in the best interest of the planet, Biden and his scum bags must go, the sooner the better. The demented Biden and the stupid insanely incompetent people around him must go, in less than half his term the evil on legs has caused more harm than Bush and Trump combined did in 12 years.
In 1991 the Warsaw Pact countries fell apart. Meanwhile, NATO went in the opposite direction. How so?
Because the Americans broke their word. That is why. The Americans are the most devious ally one can imagine.
They know exactly who blew up the pipelines, the whole world knows it. There were NATO warships around the pipelines, no Russians in sight, with all the surveillance they don’t know? They damn well know. The USA has declared war on NATO, the USA stabbed the allies in the back, never in history did an ally do that. The USA is in the process to obstruct any UN investigation, which would be as useless as the IAEA investigation in the NPP. Sweden and Finland participated in NAVY exercises in the region, they have been de facto NATO members for some time. NATO member governments are the real traitors to their people. NATO members employ mercenaries to do the dirty work. Russian soldiers are drafted and they do fight for their country, not just for a paycheck. The Geneva conventions counts, for hired contractors they don’t.
Our foreign policy is just like a relay race in Track and Field. Biden just took the baton. Nothing changed.
Nothing will change until enough people understand we are ruled by psychopaths.
Yes, judging by published comments in it, our media has successfully convinced its readers of the most hawkish and irresponsible ideas for brinkmanship.
If everything is treated as another Munich against a Hitler, then WW3 becomes the only and inevitable “remedy.” Is that what we wanted?
The nations elite, MSM corporations, MIC, Financial and Insurance corporations, politicians, lobbyists and former officials and their relatives on the boards of big corporation shake hands when they come and go entering and leaving the revolving door, then they meet in Davos celebrating how much more wealthy they now are compared to last year.
That is the nation’s intellectually and morally bankrupt and greedy elite.
The US needs a Putin-like figure to neuter the oligarchy.
We can only dream, and true believers can pray. Even half the Putin rational and competence would help, I think.
In liberal democracy, the function of the media is supposedly to tell “truth to power”. Now the media drives politics into war with a dense network of lies that’s been fabricated somewhere in the depths of the deep state, which is completely beyond democratic oversight.
The frantic disinformation campaign is just the death rattle of the Empire. Once the empire of lies has collapsed, the world will look on in astonishment about how little substance there was to begin with.
Congratulations, NATO. A President that made Bandera a hero of Ukraine. Hitler’s ally, a murderer of Jews, Poles and Russians. Van Der Layen’s grandfather must have known him — his job was to hunt the resistance fighters.
NATO is not a party in the war? Let me know if I got any of the following points wrong:
1. NATO/US is supplying tens of billions in weapons to Ukraine.
2. NATO/US is paying the salaries of the Ukrainian army, foreign mercenaries, and Ukrainian government.
3. NATO/US is training Ukrainian troops to NATO standards.
3. NATO/US is giving Ukraine intelligence on precise locations and helping Ukraine target Russian troops, civilian populations, and nuclear reactors.
4. NATO/US/EU is sanctioning Russia to the maximum.
5. NATO/US/EU is running a huge war propaganda campaign against Russia.
If the above is true, I would say the answer to the question is “absolutely,” with a Tom Cruise signature smile on top.
You don’t win a prize for being correct but you can have satisfaction in knowing how accurate you are! 🙂
All true, but are the NATO airforces attacking the Russians, are the NATO navies controlling the Black sea? Are NATO armies rolling into Ukraine? NATO is very very lightly involved in this at this point.
The military power of NATO is taken for granted.
It ought not to be, because the US moved its forces out of Europe, and Europe itself largely disarmed. Potential if rearmed is not the same as existing ability.
Well given the observed performance of the Russian army so far, I am not too worried about NATO getting overmatched.
Considering that Ukraine’s army together with the mass fundings and mass armaments shipped to Ukraine is just barely overpowering the Russian forces, then you factor in that Russia has only started to mobilize (partially) their forces to keep up with it.
Nato having only prolonged the war and suffering at this point could figure out that it is hopeless and idiotic.
I feel sorry for the next batch of Russians thrown into the grinder, untrained, under-equipped they will be slaughtered. Russia has to decide who is the bigger problem V Zelensky or V Putin.
If that is so why don’t the Ukrainians the stronger party offer negotiations?
I think to know that Russia occupies the Donbass region. Why does the loser occupy the land of the winner, that is unusual, how come?
What exactly is there to negotiate? Russia is trying to steal their land. Ukraine is going to drive the Russians back to the 2010 border. Things are going OK so far. If Russia manages to stalemate the situation and USA and EU start to wobble on support maybe negotiations maybe Russia gets to keep Ukraine but I doubt it.
The Russians are doing exactly what Ukrainian nationalists wanted them to do to create an ethnically pure Ukraine. The Russians are now leaving Ukraine together with their ancestral land.
They are also trying to create an ethnically pure Russia as the Russians are sending ethnic minorities into the grinder instead of ethnic Russians.
“What exactly is there to negotiate?”
The same things that YOU thought were legitimate before the invasion. Those same things you seem to think are going to magically disappear.
the side that is winning doesn’t need to negotiate, Russia wants negotiation now, this is a sign things aren’t going so well.
Russia wanted to negotiate before the invasion and in April after the invasion. It was the US/UK that wouldn’t allow it. And how is it that Ukraine is “winning” when they are trying to take land BACK that they lost?
Part of negotiation is “good faith” so sure Russia was willing to negotiate, we get what we want and you get nothing, that isn’t negotiation.
And you say that based on what? Same ones telling you Russia is “losing”? And preinvasion, the US/NATO wouldn’t even sit at a table. Those are going to look like the good old days for the side that you think is “winning” and for the rest of the world too.
Oh I think the Ukrainians are OK with slaughtering all the Russians however hapless that show up with guns uninvited in their country.
Add Joe Biden to that list.
Have you seen the videos of troops being told to bring their own sleeping bags and ask their girlfriends for pads and tampons for their first aid kits? It’s appalling. No wonder almost 200,000 have fled so far.
And those are only the ones who have the money and connections to flee. They are doubtless many times that number who CAN’T avoid conscription but have zero desire to fight. (Like the ones calling the hotline to learn how to surrender.)
As Caitlin Johnstone noted: now would be a good time for detente.
Russia has achieved its goal, by popular referendum, of its annexation of the four largely Russian ethnic territories.
If the United Snakes objects to annexation, perhaps it should ask itself why IsraHell is allowed to do the same without consequences.
ZelBoy needs to recognize NOW that Ukraine has lost territory due to its own damned fault and call it quits. But of course Amerikkka and its “allies” would never allow. ByeDone and the Blinkin’ Idiot will defeat Russia if it means the entire planet is obliterated.
Unfortunately for Russia, it was another own goal by Putin.
It would have been easier to negotiate a ceasefire line of control that left Russian troops in possession of Donetsk and Luhansk if he hadn’t tried to preemptively take Kherson and Zaporizhzhia off the table as well. When he loses those and the Ukrainians start really leaning into Donetsk/Luhansk, what will he have left to trade for a way out of his fiasco?
Likely before that would happen, Russia would mobilize another million troops.
Thomas, I misspoke.
At the war’s inception, I believe that Putin’s consideration was to liberate Donetsk and Luhansk, not absorb them. I’m not sure what changed.
But nonetheless the people have spoken.
DPR/LPR’s separatists have been asking to be annexed by Russia since they declared independence 2014.
While Putin’s about as likely to be interested in actually “liberating” anyone as Biden, Xi, Lapid, et al. — which is to say, not at all — it’s understandable that if he was going to let himself get drawn into all-out war there, he’d rather end up with them as an annexed buffer zone than go back to having them hanging out like bait in “contested independent” status.
While I suspect that a free, fair election would have had the same result as advertised (although not nearly as overwhelming), no, “the people” have not “spoken.” A show was put on and the desired result was fore-ordained, as is the case in many if not most elections around the world but in a considerably more obvious manner.
The Russians have already destroyed the Ukrainian forces with a small special mission 1/3 of the Ukrainian army. They are now facing a new Ukrainian army fully equipped by Nato, which they will defeat by mobilizing 1.2% or their reserves.
Poland could probably take on Russia in conventional warfare single handedly
The only thing Poland could take on is a polish sausage.
Perhaps Poland should stop yapping and do it then.
No one threatened Europe, there was no need for NATO, the biggest enemy of Europe is the USA/UK.
Very lightly involved? Are you serious? We have pumped more military aid into Ukraine during this conflict than Russia spent on its entire military budget in 2021. Get a life 😉
That is true, you think the Russians could figure out that it is hopeless. Now on the other hand it is a tiny fraction of what we spent for nothing on the middle east .
Thirty NATO member states are supporting the Ukrainians and still they can’t win? Why not since Russians are so weak, their soldiers are low quality and weak untrained and their weapons are old?
By all accounts the Ukrainians are so superior, yet they can’t win, they have the best of everything, still they lost some 20% of Ukraine.
Zelensky collects weapons and most of all more money, Ukraine is on life support, does that make sense, which is it?
They are winning, they are taking back territory. No need to rush though, winter is coming the Russian troops didn’t bring winter supplies, they have terrible logistics so pretty soon they start to freeze to death. What territory the Ukr take these days I think is mostly for show.
The West and Ukraine are losing because they believe in the propaganda you are repeating. To underestimate your opponent is a fatal mistake.
Time will tell
Right. The Russians don’t know anything about winter. Hitler got that wrong and Hitler lite Zelansky is getting it wrong too.
Oh look, it looks like the Russian front in Kherson is collapsing. I am sure it is some sophisticated strategy to fool the Ukrainians.
While it’s probably not a “sophisticated strategy to deceive the Ukrainians,” it could be less rout and more calculated withdrawal than it looks like.
If Putin and his masters have finally accepted the fact that Russia isn’t going to get to keep the Kherson and Zaporizhzhia oblasts, then the obvious thing to do is start allocating existing resources to defensible positions in Donetsk/Luhansk (and feeding the incoming conscripts into defense of a future ceasefire line of control there) while conducting a fighting withdrawal from Kherson/Zaporizhzhia.
Or they could step up their game.
It’s the USA and war criminals leading Ukraine that have fooled the Ukrainians. And what would they get if they “win”? They ‘d get to continue the policies of suppression of the human rights of non ethnic Ukrainians. That’s not a win.
You seem to delight in supporting a regime that engages in ethnic clensing. And THAT says what you are.
Isn’t it odd how many Russian conscripts are NOT ethnic Slavs, and how many minority groups in Russia are opposed to the war? Talk about ethnic cleansing.
“In one region on the Crimean Peninsula — the Tatars’ homeland and part of Ukraine that Russia has occupied for the past eight years — all but two of 48 people who received draft notices were ethnic Tatars.”
Sounds like all but two of the people in Tartar homeland happened to be Tartars.
If we had a draft how many would be opposed to the draft? Maybe the Russians don’t have a college exemption like we had, now we have an army of mercenaries. When was the last time you saw a soldier in uniform?
Tell me you don’t know much about ethnic minorities in Russia without telling me you don’t know much about ethnic minorities in Russia. The Crimean is only about 15 percent ethnic Tatar.
That would be because the Russian government deported about 200,000 of them to the steppes in the late 1940s, and another 30,000 have left Crimea since 2014.
Also, it’s not THAT uncommon to see someone in uniform for me, and I don’t even live or work anywhere near a base. (If we don’t want a draft, which I think no one does, then our options are 1) no military, or 2) a professional, all-volunteer military.)
Btw, the Russians supposed have a college exemption, but plenty of young men in college have in fact been drafted. So was a 59-year-old surgeon who was blind in one eye.
And while the original order says that it was only men with combat experience, there are also many reports of men with zero combat experience being conscripted, including a PhD student and lecturer.
What Russian government in the 1940’s are you referring to? Are you are referring to the 1940’s SOVIET era? You claim to understand history and ethnic minorities within Russia. But you don’t even know that the policies you are criticizing were instituted by Stalin. Stalin wasn’t even Russian. He was
You repeat MSM propaganda pieces as if they were true.
It’s interesting how whenever it’s something good, it’s Russia (“Russia beat the Nazis”), and whenever it’s something bad it’s “oh, no, that wasn’t Russia, that was the Soviet Union.”
In terms of geopolitics, the Soviet Union was simply the historical continuation of the Russian empire.
I don’t think I said such. And then again the common usage is often the British, the French, or the USA defeated Germany or Nazi’s or the Axis. The use of a single country or population in this reference is common. So in this context did Russians defeat the Nazi’s? Did the Americans defeat the Nazi’s?
Your “example” is a non sequitur. Claiming every nation or people is an empire makes the term of little value in a discussion.
I agree that claiming every nation or people is an empire would make the term of little value in a discussion. Which is why I would never consider such a thing.
At the moment, there are effectively three empires in existence — the US, Russian, and Chinese empires. The first two are in decline, and it remains to be seen whether the third will fill the vacuum of that decline.
Literally the stupidest rebuttal ever. (Also, your assumption that I know about the Tatars because of “MSM propaganda” and not because I’m an educated person who knows my history is almost as funny as the assumption that I’m an alter ego for three other posters.)
Whether it was the exact same government is immaterial. Moscow, then as now, finds convenient ways to rid itself of unwanted ethnic minorities. (Incidentally, their reason for relocating the Tatars was their alleged Nazi collaboration. Sound familiar?
Oh. And if you think the current Russian government is treating them well, you’d be wrong.
You’re an educated person who knows “my history” alright. That’s the problem. It’s your history, not the real thing. You keep avoiding the fact that the government you cite as ” Russian” was a Soviet government led by a Georgian. But, yes, there is a lot of discrimination against ethnic groups in all of Eastern Europe. And a lot of oppression. You cite that Tartars are leaving Crimea and blame the Russians. But Tartars have been migrating both in and out of this area for over a century. The reasons are complex. More complex than your “Russia bad” narrative.
You cite discrimination against Tartars in Crimea under the RF. But you seem to ignore, even from the sources you use, the oppression of Russian speakers in Ukraine. Including, not just the harassment by Russian authorities In Crimea of Tartars, but outright torture and “disappearing” ethnic Russians . Frankly, the disparity in your
” Russians bad” narrative seems, well, more than a bit racist. But perhaps given the Russia, Russia, Russia bs from the MSM…… Unfortunately, until people realize this is manipulation by unscrupulous forces in the Western nations, a lot of people ar in danger of getting killed.
BTW, where did I make the claim that you were the alter ego of three different posters?
“My history” in the way I know “my spelling” or “my math.” I’m not implying I’m Tatar. (Also, it’s not “Tartar.”)
Are you seriously suggesting that these Tatar people voluntarily immigrated to a place where half of them died within a year? You’re literally excusing genocide.
And I’m still waiting for these sources regarding the torture of ethnic Russians in Ukraine. (incidentally, isn’t it interesting that so many of the Tatars ended up in Ukraine? Odd that the alleged “Nazis” were less inclined to persecute them than the Russians were.)
In 2017, Amnesty International reported that during the War in Donbass there was overwhelming evidence of ongoing war crimes, including torture and mass murders of prisoners. In Eastern Ukraine, Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) operates special hidden prisons for alleged Donbass rebels where unacknowledged detention is accompanied by widespread torture and different kinds of human rights abuses. The Ukrainian government tried to deny the existence of the blacksites, but it was confirmed by multiple reports of the UN monitoring mission in Ukraine, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. Dutch journalist Chris Kaspar de Ploeg in his book “Ukraine in the Crossfire” said about the prisons that their “practices happen completely in the dark” emphasizing that the supporting evidence about the facilities has been documented independently by the UN, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. In 2018 Amnesty International concluded that “The investigation into the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) for its alleged secret prisons failed to make any progress. Law enforcement officials continued to use torture and other ill-treatment”.
Ukrainian volunteer battalion “Tornado” became another infamous example of a mass torture and sadistic practices used by Ukrainian paramilitary forces. According to Der Spiegel the prisoners captured by “Tornado” were held in basements, stripped naked, placed on a concrete wall, doused with water and tortured by applying electricity to their testicles, genitals and other body parts. Also some prisoners were forced to rape each other under threat of death. According to what has been videotaped by the officers of the “Tornado,” there were a local civilians among their victims, including women. The investigation revealed that the commander of “Tornado” had several prior criminal convictions, but for his political supporters it wasn’t a reason to worry. The absence of war crimes charges (including rape, murder, cruel treatment, and sexual violence) remains as another unexplained question. The similar pattern has been documented in other investigated cases of Ukrainian atrocities.
Dude, you seriously copied and pasted that straight from Wikipedia! A Wikipedia article that’s been flagged as having multiple issues, no less. Hahaha.
Here’s the actual Amnesty International report: https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/EUR5016832015ENGLISH.pdf
Here’s some of what it says: “The stories of torture and other ill-treatment of prisoners held by both sides in connection with the conflict in eastern Ukraine are not only shocking, they are all too common. Amnesty International interviewed 33 former prisoners for this briefing paper, 17 of whom had been held by separatists, and 16 by pro-Kyiv military and police forces, including the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU). All but one of them described severe beatings or other serious abuse, particularly during the initial days of captivity.
Amnesty International has also identified three recent cases in which separatist fighters appear to have summarily killed pro-Kyiv captives.”
And while it is reprehensible that either side did such things, nothing in your Wikipedia article or the Amnesty report support your assertion that there was systemic “harassment by Russian authorities In Crimea of Tartars, but outright torture and ‘disappearing’ ethnic Russians.”
Did you miss that the article cited the sources they used? And “multiple issues” does not discredit those sources. Two of which you yourself used.
As far as Russia did it too? you’re kidding. That’s your excuse?
Remember the premise here. You claimed you couldn’t find anything on the Kiev regimes atrocities. I merely have pointed out that someone who claims to have basic search skills wasn’t being honest. Either you do not have those skills, or you were blind to what information is out there. that didn’t fit your narrative.
You are wasting my time. People like you endlessly dispute anything and any sources that they don’t agree with. You hate Russia. I get that.
Omg. You’re hilarious. You used Wikipedia without saying it was Wikipedia, then when I shared what one of those sources said, instead of a cherry-picked quote, that’s a problem too. (Btw, the flag means there an issue with the ARTICLE, not necessarily the sources.)
I’m still looking for evidence of systematic persecution of Russian speakers, btw. And I’m gooooood at finding stuff. I work in the legal field, I’m a genealogist, and I’m a former journalist. Ferreting out information is my forte. But I cannot locate one single source describing concrete instances of this happening on a regular basis, and apparently you can’t either.
You couldn’t find this????? There are numerous examples easily found.
Oh. I’ve looked. And I’ve asked here. The only thing anyone ever posts is a Radio Free Europe article stating the total number of civilian deaths. Of course, it doesn’t indicate who died or who killed them.
And if the Ukrainians did kill Russian speaking civilians – which I’m not saying could not have possibly happened, I’m just looking for the evidence – you’re still a genocide denier.
There might be riots in Europe against the USA and NATO. Riots and snow will be in Russia’s’ favor.
The US might use US troops, stationed in Germany, against the German people.
With crazy people like demented Biden and company all is possible. After the pipeline destruction and the nuclear weapons threats, we can believe all is possible.
And where was your outcry when NATO entered into Serbia and created Kosovo?
Srebencia, what was that?
One of many atrocities on both sides is what it was at most. Although it was in Bosnia and had nothing to do with Kosovo. Do some research. The reason Milosevic died so suddenly is because he was embarrassing the court by correctly showing that the trial was only focusing one the crimes of one side.
Now can you tell us why NATO was bombing civilian targets such as tv stations and Yugo factories? You do know that the textbook definition of terrorism is bombing civilian infrastructure to force people to vote your way.
The Serbs did not do anything in Srebrenica that so-called “Israelis” do when they are under rocket attacks. But the Serbs had less money and less PR.
Nato isn’t sending troops because it prefers others to do the dirty work, but the orders come from Nato. It’s a de facto Nato proxy war.
The US/UK part of NATO are deeply involved and are coercing other NATO members, it shows how crazy and devious they really are. The USA, the NATO leader, is at war with Russia no one else it, the others are USA proxies like Ukraine.
And NATO participated in the destruction of strategic assets, the undersea pipelines.
That made NATO the aggressor, no NATO member was attacked or threatened. That is another NATO war crime.
The short list of who done it: US, GB or both.
US/UK against NATO. Used to be unimaginable, but it looks like they really did it, fighting Germany/NATO and Russia at once.
“De Facto”?… Is it contagious?
It’s spread by bodily fluids, among strange bedfellows.
Do you think a young recruit from Nebraska will fight to defend a corrupt entity like Ukraine?
Zelensky is correct and they have been a de-facto member since BEFORE Russia invaded. And of course NATO is a party to the war, in fact any nation/alliance that arms either party During the war is Party to it, especially if they helped foment it in the first place.
I argued with a libertarian about this not long ago. He argued that you can sell weapons or even give them to Ukraine because Ukraine is now engaged in self defense. OK, but that still makes you a Party to the conflict and it’s only his opinion that this is an act of self defense. I don’t happen to agree with that statement any more than I would agree that it’s an act of self defense on the Part of Russia. Both nation’s leaders are to blame for starting this war, neither have clean hands.
I argued that it doesn’t matter anyway. Lets say I’m at war with my neighbor and you believe I started the war. OK, so you give my neighbor weapons and he kills my kids, do you think I care one iota whether or not you felt I started the war? Nope, you are now going to be my enemy because you chose to take sides. Furthermore, if you give my neighbor just enough weapons, that all it does is lead to more death and destruction for both our families, we are likely to Both hate you by the time it’s over and YOU will end up the scapegoat who we both turn on after we make peace. We will say to ourselves and each other, “look it was that guy over there”, he wanted this war, he got us fighting with lies and gossip and then he gave the weaker side the ability to fight but not enough to win, etc.
The likely outcome of this war will be just that, both the Russian people and the Ukrainian people will hate us for this. The people of Europe are also innocent bystanders who will not thank us for bringing war, refugees and poverty to their continent once again. Our Dear Leaders might think they win by driving a wedge between Russia and Ukraine and between Russia and Germany, I say only time will tell and I doubt very much that it’s going to go as planned.
The Europeans aren’t innocent bystanders. The US is the driving force in this war, but the EU was a willing tool in fomenting the troubles in Ukraine because it’s decision-making organs were hijacked by Washington and by Russian-hating Poles and Baltics. The Germans are afraid to take a leading role in the EU because of history. That means the center is empty and can be usurped by outside forces and the periphery.
Well a weird kind of NATO country, normally if a NATO country is attacked NATO will send troops there to help the defense, not old gear that is approaching its best before date.
It is good of him to make this claim, he can negotiate it away at the peace talks. Bargain with things you never had as it were.
But he’ll also be trying to negotiate for parts of Ukraine he used to have and still could have if he wouldn’t allowed himself to be used as bait.
He’s getting rich and British citizenship. His country is the bait.
Look at that, Stoltenberg just threw Lord Vodomort Zelensky under the bus.
He must have been told to do it, he takes orders.
That was true before. That is why Russia attacked.
No great power could or ever has tolerated that sort of thing, and none will.
The term is “brinkmanship” when the US side pushed the extreme limits, daring them to respond.
When they do respond as they so clearly might, it is not reason to justify the brinkmanship recklessness in the most important matters of war and peace.
History would have forgiven their crimes if they had succeeded in destroying Russia. As they acted in ignorance, being blinded by the own anti-Russian propaganda, they didn’t realize that the economic war would strengthen Russia and weaken the West. Greed and ignorance is a fatal combination. They will fail against Russia like they failed in the ME and in Afghanistan. History will expose their lies and nobody will have merci on them when the Empire collapses.
Biden, the senile president shot a big and loyal ally in the head when he authorized the sabotage and destruction of two major pipelines destroying the economy of the continent.
What did the scum in Washington think they can possibly win? Was that their last resort knowing they are losing and now they will use nuclear weapons on the continent? The insanity of the scum is just sinking in.
What about the crook Zelensky, the MSM has put the creep on a pedestal, in class with Biden and his scum bags and that idiot is dying to get nuclear weapons. There is no sane and competent government among all the NATO states, adding Ukraine makes no difference. A man with dementia having his finger on the red button is about as scary as it get. He is doing all he can to provoke China, he wants a two front war with two nuclear powers. And MSM supports all of that, not one voice of dissent, what a nightmare.
And lest we forget the carte blanche he wants to give Israel to bomb Iran with US-supplied in-flight refueling.
Fits right in, I missed it, we have too much on our plates.
“Whom the gods would destroy they first make mad.”
I’m not sure that Bidan gave the order to destroy the pipeline. It could well be that some of the proxy forces the US creates did it without direct orders from the White House. The US creates all kinds of monsters like the Mujahedeen in Afghanistan, the Jihadists in Syria and Libya, the Nazis in Ukraine, to do its dirty work, but these monsters have a tendency to get out of control like the Serbian terrorist who triggered WWI by assassinating the Austrian archduke even though the Serbian government did everything to prevent the assassination.
The sabotage was a big job, it could only be done with military equipment and organization. It could not have been done without Biden’s consent. The Europeans could never have dreamed of an ally doing what Biden did, it is too crazy for a normal man in the presidency to do it. It could not have been done without his knowledge. They destroy nations for oil they are capable of doing it , only no one ever thought they are that crazy, and no one can be crazier than the Biden people.
Otherwise I do agree with you, and yes, it is my opinion only. But I did read that the request by Russia for an UN investigation was being obstructed by the Americans.
On the side, Serbia was not the reason for WWI either, it was more like the Tonkin incident in Vietnam and so many others. Britain was fomenting the war, starting with a military alliance with Poland, Germany was rising when Britain’s colonial empire was in trouble. It was the industrial competition UK, USA, and Germany. Revised history, the UK still does not yet open all the archives. Power and economic competition, markets were the real issues. Then the war got out of hand, and Britain lost anyway, the USA won.
This is the third chance to eliminate Germany and with it Europe. Then after Russia it will be China’s turn to be eliminated. They know it and that is why they will support Russia, Joe will not live long enough to see the mess he made.
Joe will be living for all eternity in hell and will fully realize why he is there.
The sabotage was a big job, it could only be done with military equipment and organization. It could not have been done without Biden’s consent. The Europeans could never have dreamed of an ally doing what Biden did, it is too crazy for a normal brain in the presidency to do it. It could not have been done without his knowledge. They destroy nations and civilizations for oil, they are capable of doing it , only no one ever thought they are that crazy and do it, and no one can be crazier than the Biden people.
Otherwise I do agree with you, and yes, it is my opinion only. I did read that the request by Russia for an UN investigation is being obstructed by the Americans.
On the side, Serbia was not the reason for WWI either, it was more like the Tonkin incident in Vietnam and so many others. Britain was fomenting the war, starting with a military alliance with Poland, Germany was rising when Britain’s colonial empire was in trouble, Germany had nothing to gain with war. It was the industrial competition UK, USA, and Germany. Revised history, the UK still does not yet open all the archives. Power and economic competition, markets were the real issues. Then the war got out of hand, and Britain lost anyway, the USA won.
This is the third chance to eliminate Germany and with it Europe. Then, after Russia it will be China’s turn to be eliminated. They know it and that is why they will support Russia, Joe will not live long enough to see the horrible mess he made.
The US has a record of sabotaging Russian gas infrastructure. In 1982, Reagan signed an order to blow up a Russian gas pumping station in what is known as the biggest non-nuclear blast of all times. So, I don’t think that it’s beyond the US president. I just think that the escalation often happens as a result of rogue elements or proxy forces that can’t be controlled. That’s how we slithered into WWI without anybody wanting it and that’s how we’ll slither into WWIII without anybody wanting it.
I didn’t say that Servia caused the war. I said that the assassination of the archduke served as TRIGGER. The cause was the game of alliances between the different imperial powers at the time and the ambiguity of whether the British would enter the fray or not. The Germans used the trigger provided by Serbia to hit the Franco-Russian alliance before it got too strong. They wouldn’t have done it if they had known that the British would enter the war on the pretext of the violation of Belgian neutrality, which was totally hypocritical because it was perfectly normal for European armies to march across neutral territory (eg. Napoleon) and because the British and French had foreseen to use Belgium for exactly the same purpose. The Germans were just faster.
My apology, you are right, I was on the common knowledge track. You know more details than I do, the Franco-Russian alliance is one of them and a big one.
My apology, you are right, I was on the common knowledge track. You know more details than I do, the Franco-Russian alliance is one of them and a big one, and there is so much more.
When the USA and UK redraws border without asking that is ok, right? The colonial masters did as they pleased and still do. They suffer from delusions of grandeur and morally they equal Hitler. The arrogance from that creep Zelensky is unbelievable.
Kosovo comes to mind, and if memory serves, there was no plebiscite beforehand. I haven’t looked lately, but isn’t there some kind of US airbase there?
The biggest airbase outside the continental US is in Ramstein Germany, the US biggest military hospital outside the continental US is next door in the Germany, the country of the loyal ally which just was shot in the head by our demented president. SO MUCH CRIMINAL INSANITY in one administration.
The German government refuses to disclose the total amount it has to allocate to US troops in Germany because it would be such an embarrassment. But according to a former US ambassador, the Germans have to pay about 1 billion a year for building US infrastructure such as the US base and hospital at Ramstein.
You are so right, Germany pays for the occupation, always has without ever disclosing all of it. American people still think the USA is funding the defense of Europe, they never did, Europe is their base to wage war against Russia.
I think that the neocon war criminals are knotting the rope they hang themselves on, Biden will be blessed, he may not live long enough to know what hit him and the chaos and misery he is responsible for.
You are so right, Germany pays for the occupation, always has without ever disclosing all of it. American people still think the USA is funding the defense of Europe, they never did, Europe is their base to wage war against Russia and Europeans pay for it.
Germany is not a sovereign nation, the occupier has troops in Germany ready to be used against the German people. If they think it is needed, they will do exactly that.
I think that the neocon war criminals are knotting the rope they hang themselves on, Biden will be blessed, he may not live long enough to know what hit him and the chaos and misery he is responsible for.
And he Golan Height in Syria also comes to mind, and the Iraq borders, and in Germany, everywhere they went they did it.
If all members must approve Ukraines’s membership, it will require huge bribes of all sorts in the billions… More luftgelt from the FED to feed the inflation monster…!!! There could be members who will not want the risk of this war visiting their country in spite of threats and bribes. But I believe that Bidens don’t really want them in now also, because the results could be devastating, by having Ukraine become the showcaseofor Russia’s gloves off, great game gains and prowess, and perhaps total destruction of one or some of the lesser NATO Gnomes, even a capital city or two. Not the sort of thing they want to have to explain around election time!!!
Ukraine is a de-facto kept slave of the hegemon and Zelensky is a millionaire puppet in search of a starring role (robe and sandals?) together with the fawning admiration of millions of faithful followers.
Yet another insane “leader” of another fake democracy.
In his speech, Zelensky argued Ukraine is already a “de facto” member of NATO. “De facto, we have already proven compatibility with alliance standards. We trust each other, we help each other, and we protect each other,” he said.
If this guy isn’t on coke, then I guess he is just bat shit crazy. Or was this part of his stand-up routine? He left out “we use each other”. But that’s just for him getting enriched and the US “weakening” Russia and not his people. They just get death and destruction.
Only Idiots trust the Us politicians, he too should know that by now, the US CAN’T BE TRUSTED.
I read he has a $35 million property in Florida, maybe the hurricane took care of it. One thing I do believe, He has a fat bank account, like the guys in Afghanistan did, his future is safe, Uncle Sam pays traitors well. And corruption in Ukraine is a natural.
The idiot seems to believe his own propaganda. Which makes him especially dangerous.
Here’s a better, more logical video. Tucker at his best.
I see Zelensky as that midget who wants to get into a bar fight so long as the two big guy are doing all the real fighting.
Zelensky is a midget beating up the other midget in possession of one of the largest Armies in the world.
Poor Ze, to have such friends.
“NATO is not a party to” the war in Ukraine
.Of course not, we just use our own resources.
When you can’t get someone to do something, just say you’ve “de facto” got them to do it.
It’s curious that Zelensky is echoing John Mearsheimer’s theory that Ukraine is already a “de facto” Nato member. I guess he assumes that to become a “de jure” Nato member is now only a formality. I wonder if Zelensky will end up on Ukraine’s hit list like John Mearsheimer …
Anyways, that’s bound to be a bit of an embarrassment to Nato leaders who have maintained all along that Ukraine’s Nato membership isn’t up for discussion. It’s not that these people have any sense of shame, but I suppose that they might cough up some more money and weapons to shut Zelensky up.
Neocons–Climate Zealots–Ukrainian Neo Nazis.
I can’t say humanity’s prospects appear optimistic. We might have the financial version beginning within days.
9 Baltic States back Ukraine push to join NATO (out of 30) It should be noted that none of the 9 are MAJOR contributors to NATO’s budget or troops. So they have little to lose if fighting starts between NATO and Russia. Its just a case of hiding behind the US.
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