The US and its allies have vowed to ramp up the pressure on Russia after Ukraine accused Moscow of massacring civilians in Bucha, a charge that Russia denies.
President Biden told reporters on Monday that he is planning more sanctions on Russia and called for Russian President Vladimir Putin to be put on trial for war crimes. National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan said the International Criminal Court (ICC) could be a potential venue for a trial, although the US has a contentious relationship with the court, and is not a party to the ICC.
The Trump administration sanctioned ICC officials for their probe into US war crimes in Afghanistan. The sanctions were lifted by the Biden administration, but Biden officials have criticized the ICC for opening an investigation into Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and its wars in Gaza.
Germany and France both announced on Monday that they were expelling dozens of Russian diplomats over the alleged Russian massacre. Previously, Berlin and Paris have been more hesitant than other NATO countries to take hardline action against Moscow. French President Emmanuel Macron is now calling for harsher sanctions that target Russian oil.
While the details of what happened in Bucha, a suburb near Kyv, are not confirmed, Biden accused Putin of being responsible for the killings. “I got criticized for calling Putin a war criminal … you saw what happened in Bucha. This warrants him — he is a war criminal,” he said.
Also on Monday, a senior Pentagon official told reporters that the US military was in no position to confirm or refute Ukrainian claims. “The Pentagon can’t independently and single-handedly confirm that, but we’re also not in any position to refute those claims,” the official said. Later in the day, Pentagon spokesman John Kirby said it was “obvious” Russia was responsible but didn’t offer any details.
Russia argues that it couldn’t have been responsible for the civilian killings since its forces withdrew from Bucha on March 30, and the main Ukrainian accusations didn’t start until April 3. On March 31, Anatolii Fedoruk, the mayor of Bucha, posted a video announcing the “liberation” of the city. According to photos from The New York Times, Ukraine’s neo-Nazi Azov battalion, which is part of the Ukrainian National Guard, was patrolling Bucha on Saturday, April 2.
A video that was taken on April 2 showed dozens of dead civilians on the streets of Bucha and Ukrainian officials said a mass grave was discovered. According to satellite photos obtained by The New York Times, at least 11 of the bodies had been on the street since March 11, when Russia occupied the area. The Times obtained the photos from Maxar Technologies, a space technology company that works with the Pentagon. The Times report says the causes of death are unclear, and some bodies were beside what appear to be impact craters, suggesting they could have been killed by shelling during fighting between Russian and Ukrainian forces.
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky is claiming 300 people had been tortured and killed by Russian forces in Bucha. Ukrainian authorities said a total of 410 civilian bodies were found in areas near Kyiv that Russia recently withdrew from. The Ukrainians are calling for more Western intervention in response to the alleged Russian killings. Foreign Minister Dmytro Kulebasaid the West should impose the “most severe” sanctions on Moscow.
Russia wanted to discuss the massacre at the UN Security Council on Monday, but the meeting was blocked by the UK, which holds the presidency of the body for the month of April. The Security Council is expected to discuss the matter during a scheduled meeting on Tuesday.
It’s a near certainty that the civilians were executed by Azov as they re-entered the town. Azov is notorious for killing those they deem collaborators and saboteurs.
There is no wuestion about it. The determination to propsgate the lies by the Western chorus is DISTURBING.
There are now SUPPOSEDLY satelite photoes showiing bodies presumably for weeks!
The cheerfull mayor announcing the complete departure of Russian forces clearly knew exactly
that there were no casualtes in the township. There was nobway that foor a two days nobody knew of desd people.
No, this is a job of a death squad, taking a revenge against “traitors” . It would be interesting to find out if the dead people were Russian. What haplened to relatives, neighbors? Why did they let the dead just lay in the street? Not notifying the happy city hall of the problem?
Forensic wxperts looked at pictures and on the basis of some good photoes, concluded that that those were killed within less than 24 hours. Blood on victims was still fresh and rigor mortis has not set in yet.
I am wondering if firing of two generals at about two days before the massacres are linked.
It is possiblle that these career military men did not approve of desth squads and “sweeping” the
area for collaborators.
Why else would Zelenski called them “ traitors”?
A president in war time calls his two generals – traitors? .
revenge
We all know that Russian Soldiers are angels that follow all the law of war and don’t kill anybody.
She didn’t say that. She pointed out several things that make the accusations questionable and yet you took no time to refute what she said. Tell us how our critical thinking media didn’t immediately jump on the bandwagon and declare Russia guilty before any kind of independent inquiry happened. As if our media hasn’t been parroting ANYTHING the Ukrainian government claims from the very beginning.
Anyone notice how perfectly evenly spaced those bodies from the satellite photos are?
Like a slalom course for the ukie jeeps and apc’s as seen in one of the videos, yes and “of course” relatives would leave them unattended in the streets and not burie them like the other ethnic Russians killed by Azov Nazi’s in Mariupol or anywhere else f.ex. I mean they had 3 days to do so.
On a closer inspection, many of these people are visibly tortured which means they were killed elsewhere and dragged where they set up the scene.
Attacks on traitors and saboteurs has been a hallmark of the Kiev regime for many years now. Doesn’t need a special order from high command – it’s routine and systemic.
During the last 4 weeks, there have been consistent reports of Kiev forces rooting-out-saboteurs in various cities. Many reports of gunfire and such.
The 2 generals in question likely told Zelensky the gig was up and Kiev should simply accept the generous terms offered by Moscow to end the Ukrainian Civil War. Approx 7 million Ukrainians refuse Kiev‘s legitimacy. 50,000 Ukranians are currently fighting against the Kiev regime.
Do you have a link for the forensic expert report you refer to?
We really don’t know why Zelenskyy fired the two generals. Lots of generals get fired when they fail or when they disagree with the CIC. One of the fired Ukrainian generals was heading intelligence in Kherson and the other was head of intelligence over Ukraine. It could be Zelenskyy is looking for scapegoats for the decision give up Kherson without a fight. Lincoln repeatedly did the same thing during the Civil War until he found a team he could trust to fight and win.
Delusional or biased. If you haven’t seen all the destruction caused by the Russians, then you are only getting one news side. Based on your position, Russian soldiers can do whatever they want and you will always blame Azov and/or Ukrainians. Russians hate Ukrainians, historically they have treated them as lower class citizens. Did you know there are way more Neo Nazis in Russian than Ukraine? and those see Ukrainians as animals.
We’ve seen the destruction by Russia in the Ukraine. Many don’t know that NATO/USA trained and armed the UAF in Urban warfare. The UAF could have decided to fight the Russians in the countryside given UAF outnumbered the invading Russian forces by 3 to 1. The tactical decision to use the cities as battleground was made by the Ukraine.
Destruction and civilian casualties? Do the names Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria and Libya ring any bells?
Outnumbered Russians? Really? That’s laughable. Ukrainians Fighting in the open where they would get slaughtered? Think again. Let’s hold those responsible for civilian casualties in other theaters as well but let’s not use that as an excuse to justify actions in Ukraine. Under that analogy, we might as well never again play by the rules.
Russia invaded the Ukraine with 190,000 troops. Ukraine has active service personal of between 200,000 and 245,000. Ukraine reserves are between 220,000 and 240,000. Ukraine para military is between 45,000 and 50,000. Soooo. around 500,000. Not including armed civilians, police and such.
So, more than 2 to 1 advantage to Ukraine. Fighting on their own ground. These are conservative estimates on Ukrainian troop strength. Sources for these numbers include Global Fire Power, but there are a number of other sources that all show the same numbers.
As for holding those responsible for civilian casualties? No problem on that front. Start at the top. Pretexts for war go back for centuries. When no one is held accountable, what are “the rules”?
Using human shields as a tactic is being used by Ukraine. You excuse this tactic by pointing out that without that tactic the UAF would be slaughtered. Then you cry foul when civilians are killed. That is intellectually dishonest. Using civilians as human shields by placing heavy military offensive equipment close to civilians is a war crime.
Get the hell out of here with your ratio. Russia is a superpower with massive amount of soldiers inside Ukraine supported by massive air, artillery, money, navy, cyber, nukes, and all kinds of other capabilities. Human shields? Really? When did that stop a russian attack? You should know where the Russians park their vehicles when they arrive in a city. Many videos of that but you’ll probably say those are Azov, the small group that conveniently keeps growing as the Russian army gets more sloppy.
“Russia is a superpower.”
The Soviet Union was a superpower. Russia wants to be. There’s a difference.
The Kiev regime police announced it’s was going after saboteurs and collaboraters as part of moving into Bucha. That’s From ukraianian state news media.
You do know that 50,000 Ukrainians are fighting alongside the Russians peacekeepers. ? Also note, more than 7 million Ukrainians support the peacekeeping mission to end 8 years of civil war.
You still believe; Kuwait Baby Incubators do you ?
One thing one can be critical of in retrospective regarding the Russian army is that in this particular instance, despite an orderly withdrawal to the southern battleground, they didn’t evacuate ethnic Russians, sympathizers and anyone willing to do so.
Knowing that Nazi death squads would kill “collaborators” or anyone even seen accepting food rations or anything associated with the Russians.
You can immediately spot that this is the case, many if not all victims wear white cloths which Russian soldiers wear to avoid friendly fire which means that these people are ethnic Russian civilians or anyone of the above mentioned. Ukies wear blue clothes. Another thing is that most of them carried emergency food rations from the Russian army.
And lastly a ukie police report from 3 days after Russia withdrew doesn’t mention any “massacre” but they do mention that they’ve started to eliminate collaborators.
Armies of occupation and Nazis almost always commit atrocities. Armies almost always deny or justify their atrocities. Governments usually cover up atrocities committed by their militaries. And governments never hold their own policy makers accountable for atrocities committed in their names or on their orders.
So what do we know? We know that a lot of civilians were killed in Bucha. I hope there is a credible international investigation. But I don’t trust the narratives or denials of the Ukrainians or the Russians.
There are a lot of allegations in this thread. But very few links to creditable or verifiable sources. We may never know what happened to the civilians murdered in Bucha. But we need to honestly try to find out before we jump to conclusions. We owe that much to the victims, to posterity and to our own humanity.
I very actively opposed the Viet Nam war and I supported the Vietnamese who opposed US imperialism. But l learned the side I supported sometimes fought dirty. I would have betrayed the reason I supported the Vietnamese fight for self determination if I ignored the fact that the VC sometimes tortured POW’s and violated international law. Of course the US and the South Vietnamese did much worse.
I am troubled by those in this discussion who seem to believe that Russian soldiers and officers are somehow incapable of doing the things that armies of occupation so frequently do when they meet resistance in foreign countries. Nazis also do wicked things in any country, including their own. But I need to know more before I can pass judgment on what happened in Bucha.
The question of who is responsible for the massacre in Bucha is bigger then whether the Russian invasion is justified. I hope this discussion gets more rational.
It just seems so stupid on Russia’s part and so opportunistic on Ukraine’s part.
Armies of occupation almost always commit atrocities. Invaders have to occupy. People resent their country being invaded and occupied. Occupying soldiers see their comrades being attacked and killed by people who look like civilians. A nervous 19 year old kid with an AK-12 can’t tell if the woman pushing a baby carriage toward him has a baby or a bomb inside. He is scared and mad about his comrades being killed by Ukrainians who looked like civilians the other day. Maybe he tells her to stay away. Maybe he waves his gun. She resents it. Maybe some kid shoots a civilian or a resistance fighter or a Nazi who looks like a civilian. The locals resent and fear the invaders even more. The invaders feel more threatened. It is only human for the invaders to emotionally dehumanize the occupied civilians and see them as potential threats, hostiles, not fellow humans. So the occupation kills more civilians. The occupying troops come to hate the occupied civilians who resent and hate the occupying forces. The occupiers have guns and use their weapons to kill people they hate and fear. Rape is also a tool of occupation. American troops raped over 11,000 German women during the occupation after WWII. The Soviet troops were much worse. See https://en.wikipedia.org- At the link below scroll down in the “Contents” to the link to “U.S. troops”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany#U.S._troops
There was very heavy fighting in Bucha and around Kyiv. You can tell from all the Russian tanks left behind that the fighting did not go well for the Russians. A lot of Russians got killed. I am sure they were frightened and angry at the civilians and some of them are very likely to have committed atrocities that occupying armies almost always do against civilian populations.
In Syria the Russians escaped the inhumanity of being occupiers because the Syrians viewed ISIS and the ISIS backed rebels as invaders and the Russians as liberators. Also, the Russian army did not occupy Syria. They turned liberated territory over to the Syria government.
Ukraine is very different. It begins with a deep seated resentment centuries of domination by the Russian empire and the Soviets, especially under Stalin.
I believe that the Nazis could have also committed atrocities. But there are many first hand reports of Russian atrocities by survivors and refugees. Given that there were so many millions of refugees from Ukraine, including 350,000 Ukrainians who fled to Russia*, some refugees would be carrying first hand reports of Nazi atrocities if they were happening. But the Russian military and media are not producing many credible reports of mass killings. Russian and independent media have published convincing video evidence that some Ukrainian soldiers have been torturing and killing Russian POWs. But there have not been credible reports of Ukrainian or Nazi atrocities during the war. That makes it hard to discount the massive video and first hand accounts of Russian atrocities.
I don’t pretend to know exactly what happened. And there needs to be an international investigation and hopefully, a prosecution for war crimes. But while we can’t rush to judgment, it is wrong to dismiss the possibility that some Russian soldiers may have deliberately killed civilians.
War is bad. Invading another country leads to bad things. Especially if the invader is a former imperial overlord.
*Link to list of number of Ukrainian refugees by country
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Ukrainian_refugee_crisis
You certainly try to paint a picture as to why you think Russia is guilty. Stockman’s article is worth reading.
https://original.antiwar.com/David_Stockman/2022/04/06/the-warfare-states-infinitely-mendacious-echo-chamber/
Armies of occupation almost always commit atrocities.
There is also a history of Russians and their Cossack underlings committing atrocities in the Ukraine for centuries.
Ukrainian history is a horror story of oppression, conquest and atrocities, mostly by Russians, the Cossacks and the German Nazis for the past several hundred years.
The Russian grievances were correct. But the Russian invasion is wrong. That does not mean that the Russians are guilty of war crimes. That is a very serious charge. Of course the MSM will exaggerate the evidence to charge genocide. There is no evidence of genocide. But I think it is wrong for folks on this list to believe that just because they support one side in a war, all the crimes are committed by the other side. We all need to look at the evidence and recognize that
***WAR IS ESSENTIALLY MASS MURDER****
and usually armies commit atrocities, including the armies we sympathize with.
And, again, your reasonable, let’s investigate and see position is vitiated by the fact of the non stop shrill cry of “Russian atrocities!!!!1111111!” It’s really not all about you, Skywalker. It’s about Ukraine, the USA, NATO, and the lockstep Western media and social media having ALREADY decided that it is all Russia’s doing. Of course, Russian troops are not metaphysically “incapable” of committing atrocities, just as the NVA and Viet Minh were not “incapable” of doing so back during your alleged anti imperialist phase.
None of us here are really in a position to “pass judgement,” but then neither is Biden, Zelensky, the MSM, social media, the Brits, the Frenchies, and so on, and yet they have, all of them, most decidedly “passed judgement” already, and then some, on the basis of (1) simple, highly motivated, assertions, and (2) their own biases. That’s the salient point. NOT what you think, with all due respect.
Moreover, these “war crime” discussions are themselves a distraction. It is now pretty damn clear that the USA and Zelensky provoked this war. That is the most important point. Which “side” is “responsible” for X, Y or Z atrocity is a distraction. Let’s just assume both sides have their excesses. So what? The important point is that “the West” provoked this war, and the West could end it tomorrow by agreeing to Putin’s more than reasonable terms. But it won’t. Instead, every day brings a new “war crime” accusation…hospital bombing, nuclear power plant attack, Bucha atrocities, tomorrow’s atrocity du jour, etc, etc,, ad infinitum. It’s a joke, a misdirection, and an obvious one.
And, again, your reasonable, let’s investigate and see position is vitiated by the fact of the non stop shrill cry of “Russian atrocities!!!!1111111!” It’s really not all about you, Skywalker. It’s about Ukraine, the USA, NATO, and the lockstep Western media and social media having ALREADY decided that it is all Russia’s doing. Of course, Russian troops are not metaphysically “incapable” of committing atrocities, just as the NVA and Viet Minh were not “incapable” of doing so back during your alleged anti imperialist phase.
None of us here are really in a position to “pass judgement,” but then neither is Biden, Zelensky, the MSM, social media, the Brits, the Frenchies, and so on, and yet they have, all of them, most decidedly “passed judgement” already, and then some, on the basis of (1) simple, highly motivated, assertions, and (2) their own biases. That’s the salient point. NOT what you think, with all due respect.
Moreover, these “war crime” discussions are themselves a distraction. It is now pretty damn clear that the USA and Zelensky provoked this war. That is the most important point. Which “side” is “responsible” for X, Y or Z atrocity is a distraction. Let’s just assume both sides have their excesses. So what? The important point is that “the West” provoked this war, and the West could end it tomorrow by agreeing to Putin’s more than reasonable terms. But it won’t. Instead, every day brings a new “war crime” accusation…hospital bombing, nuclear power plant attack, Bucha atrocities, tomorrow’s atrocity du jour, etc, etc, ad infinitum. It’s a joke, and a misdirection, and an obvious one.
“Germany’s Federal Intelligence Service, better known by the acronym BND, reportedly intercepted audio communications where Russian forces can be heard discussing executing civilians. German authorities also reportedly believe that the Russian private military company Wagner, which has close ties to the country’s intelligence services, was directly involved in the now infamous massacre of innocent Ukrainians in the town of Bucha outside of the capital Kyiv.“
The nazis have a name, Wagner!
What about the massacre in Iraq 1, Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq 2,Libya, Syria. Assassinations of Qaddafi, Milosevic, Somalian and stealing the wealth of those nations. What about the continuing occupation and brutalisation of native Palestinians. All these cry about Russia is a ploy to steal its wealth
Shoot first and ask questions later—The American Way
It seems like a conveniently timed event and clearly within the capabilities of Ukraine to stage. What we are not seeing are the video’s of Russian POW’s being murdered.
Your mind is made up. You will never see wrongdoing on the Russian side. They are Saints. keep on your propaganda campaign.
What I am saying is that there is a significant propaganda campaign being waged and nothing is as it seems.
And because Russians never steal, i guess this guy must be Azov Batt.
First the International Criminal Court (ICC) needs to examine Joe Biden for the drone strike in Afghanistan which killed a family and all their children.
Actually, it should go way back further than that. There’d be a long line of Americans waiting to be hanged.
And the MSM collaborated in covering up the war crimes. That makes them war criminals too.
And that’s after selling the wars to first make them possible.
And lining their pockets from their “defense” mic stocks.
/facepalm
You are outright delirious.
Big fan of W? He makes Putin look like Mother Theresa.
The USA killed over 300,000 civilians in Afghanistan, why are these 12 exceptional?
So it looks like the Neocons have their False Flag finally, this was what the 20th try.
Not sure how the ICC is going to get involved. Neither Russia nor Ukraine is a party to the Rome (ICC) statute (neither is the USA, by the way). I am not an international lawyer, but, AFAICT, the only way a citizen of a non party to the Rome statute can be hauled before the ICC is by UNSC referral. And, obviously, Russia (and, once again, by the way, the USA) as a permanent UNSC member has a veto over all substantive UNSC actions. So that ain’t gonna happen.
Everything is not as it seems in Ukraine. Let’s look at another semi-newsworthy item: the ‘hot Ukrainian fighter girl’ walking through the rubble:
Now one might be inclined to say” Oh, she’s so brave and hot” and move on- but take a look deeper. In another version of video she’s reported to have coming from a ‘fierce battle’, yet neither her nor any of the other soldiers have a speck of dust or dirt on their uniforms and their weapons look like they just got the assembly line, all nice and clean. Looking at her, we see perfect skin, clean hair, and again- not a speck of dirt on her or her gear. Who is this woman?
That would be Ms Vita Zaveruhka, a long time associate of the Azov outfits and a Nazi herself.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3073478/Teen-girl-feted-Ukraine-s-Joan-Arc-fighting-against-Russian-rebels-revealed-nasty-neo-Nazi-views-arrested-killing-cops.html
But that part is left out of the video made for Western consumption. Isn’t that convenient?
Stupid Russians! What’s the point of diplomacy? It’s obviously a waste of time.
The Russian army captured U.S Major General Roger L. Cloutier Jr. Africa Command HQ Chief of Staff in the besieged Ukrainian Azov camp in Mariupol.
The last two helicopters trying to evacuate foreign VIPs from Mariupol were shot down, They were sent on a suicide mission to collect Lt.General Coultier, who was, we are told, hiding in a huge industrial complex with some Special Forces staffers and about 30 Ukrainian Army, not Azov, soldiers.
Note that this is the third attempt by Kyiv to pull its US war criminals out of Mariupol. It would appear that the US is on the front line and at war with Russia.
There were 6 French officers in Mariupol as well reports are 3 escaped.
What is your source for this report?
If so, Russian media hasn’t bothered to claim it. It appears to be a baseless rumor.
This is false news. Roger L. Cloutier, Jr. is a US Lieutenant General (not a major general). Since August 2020 he has been NATO commander of Allied Ground Forces in Europe, not AfriCom which he commanded prior to his promotion on 8/20. Cloutier has not been captured by the Russians. What are your sources?
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/apr/05/tweets/no-nato-allied-land-command-leader-wasnt-captured-/
https://lc.nato.int/about-us/biographies/commander
He is a 3 star and has spent a heck of a lot of time in Ukraine. Photos abound.