The publicly offered evidence against everyone in the Malaysian Airlines MH17 crash remains as it was yesterday, sparse and of dubious trustworthiness. The rhetoric continues to pick up steam, however, with assorted Western officials continuing to pronounce absolute certainty as to the official truth, whatever it happens to be at any given time.
Broadly, it centers on proclamations of the Ukrainian rebels’ guilt, and Russian culpability, though the narrative tends to be flexible, and yesterday’s insistence of the rebels using a 9k37 Buk vehicle seized from Ukraine’s military has, without explanation, transitioned into the vehicles being provided by Russia, of which Ukraine insists incontrovertible, though totally secret, proof.
The Obama Administration is similarly claiming evidence of rebel guilt, though their evidence too is being withheld, likely in anticipation of further changes to the official story.
As the accusations fly fast and freely, another new question has emerged. If, as Ukraine claims, it had so much proof of the rebels having such advanced anti-aircraft missiles, then why was the claim never made publicly until nearly a day after the crash. Likewise, Ukraine’s claims of rebel shoot-downs of military aircraft in the leadup to the MH17 incident seem to be morphing, as it was only hours before that incident that Ukraine was insisting Russia’s Air Force was directly behind the downing of their Su-25 warplanes.
The wreckage is still barely inspected, and Ukraine is throwing around claims of a cover-up, perhaps anticipating that their allegations will not be upheld when the evidence is examined.
But for most nations, particularly the US and other Western nations, the fallout of the incident is something to be shopped around for diplomatic advantage, with officials pushing Russia to forcibly end the east Ukrainian rebellion as some sort of payment for ending the hysterical anti-Russia rhetoric surrounding the entire incident. Russia so far seems content to hold out for actual evidence, but Western officials appear to believe it is a buyer’s market, and that the perception of guilt is the real problem for Russia, not whether it is upheld by weeks of investigation.
Why am I not surprised to see the people at "anti-war" supporting Putin? You people have never met an anti-American dictator you won't support.
If you had rather read censored, feel-good, anti-Putin news, stick to Fox News or any other MSM network to obtain your daily doze of US propaganda.
"anti-American dictator"
NSA and TSA arent Russian inventions. Russia is not arming it's police force with military-grade weaponry. He is anti-American exceptionalist empire, not anti-American.
because this is an anti-war slte and US is pro war, get it???
The Kiev government been doing everything they are told by RAND corporation and Berzinski, one to escalate the war second by Berzinski to start clean the area of Russian speaking Ukrainians, meanwhile try to engage the Russia to start invading Ukraine which is the main idea presented by Barack Hussein Obama and state department. If the use of missile to down the Malaysian plane proven to be by the Kiev government job, which undoubtably it is, I wonder what Barack Hussein Obama and his state department staff are going to do.., nothing, because they are good and only made at doing the harm as they have in Syria and Iraq and Ukraine. USG, since Bill Clinton have adopted a policy to only work with mercenaries, Neo fascism and barbarian as they have created in Syria, Iraq and Neo fascism in Ukraine, they actually paying these stone aged and Neo fascism to stop democracy every where. $5 billion dollars to Ukrainians Neo fascism and $500million to another moderate terrorist, the outcome of their inhuman and stupidity is ISIS. Close the us Democratic Party, stop the far right democrats as Hillary Clinton and others to dictate, lie for another years of wars, American people don't want wars, it is these element that are bought by AIPAC want for American people to have wars.
I just want to point out that much errant baseless fluff and conjecture is already being made by stridently conspiracy-inclined persons regarding the mandated logged voice record of ATC communications with MH17 being “confiscated” by agents of “Ukrainian State Security, etc., and thus potentially interfered with or altered.
This is extremely unlikely to occur for several reasons, firstly because the recordings are time stamped, as is the duplicate recording in the aircraft’s voice data recorders. It is also the case that in any modern country the civil population is constantly listening to and logging audio files of ATC communications and saving them to digital media in archives.
It should also be noted that neighbouring states also record and log all such communications and you can be 100% sure that NATO and Russia each have the recordings already, as well, and could easily demonstrate if any form of editing or tampering has occurred (and during a war that involves air warfare it’s doubly certain both sides have logged all ATC communications in the entire region).
Indeed major media organisations log such things as well, or else have private contacts who do it for them, which they can then access for a fee in the event of an incident like this. Thus many fully independent time-stamped recordings will exist in private hands right now, regardless of what any State security might attempted to do in terms of potential tampering. Plus State security would be unable to get away with opening and accessing the voice records in the flight voice recorder anyway. So the Ukrainian government can not and will not do that, as they would surely be exposed (and look extremely bad).
So such tampering is not going to be viable.
But more significantly, in every such major accident it’s normal and required for the state investigation agency, and even with police enforcement if necessary, to preserve evidence required for a full investigation to take place. Indeed, they’re usually legally required to this so by national regulations and law.
So what is occurring is situation normal but it’s being spun by people who refuse to face the fact that this is unavoidably necessary and that it will be quite impossible to falsify and omit sections of the records without it being easily and rapidly detected, leading to international criminal repercussions for attempting to pervert the course of justice.
Yeah, it sounds cheezey, but in these circumstances that’s what will occur. The stakes are high so at least one states will make certain that the full communications record is released.
But until that occurs all that we will get is more of these sorts of sinister sounding conspiracy conjectures.
The "Fog of War", It is in Ukraine's BEST interest to make as much noise as possible, but they are failing to remember that the Weapons system is part of their Arsenal, and that there was a full anti aircraft regiment there with LOTS of these missiles, bought and purchased by the lawful Ukraine government a number of years ago! The Russians didn't have to supply them at all recently they sold them to the Ukraine Government. While we are at it Ukraine should account for every one of their missiles, because they have Dozens of them at least another 4 Anti Aircraft artillery regiments armed with exactly the same missile system! Seriously how do we not know this was a false flag operation, Ukraine is currently being run by a National Socialist ultra right wing party?
Now do I trust Russia ……….NO but I do not trust Ukraine either!
But the fact is that the weapon system WAS THERE and it was there as part of the UKRAINE military order of battle, so RUSSIA didn't have to supply it to the rebels, Ukraine supplied it because they left it there!
Cui bono? Russia – no. Rebels – no. Ukraine – yes. US/UK/NATO – yes
Ukraine 'accidentally' shot down a civilian aircraft in 2001. For the first 6 months of the investigation it denied involvement, then when evidence appeared, it claimed it was an accident.
One other breach of logic: if it was determined that the rebels indeed had such advanced surface-to-air weaponry since a while or that the Russian air force themselves recently assisted in taking down military planes using fighter jets even at higher altitudes, wasn't there the international obligation to warn civilian air traffic away from that now extremely dangerous and unpredictable war zone?
But by keeping it under wraps (if they even had anything substantial) the situation might have purposfully been made extremely volatile with these accidents waiting to happen. A broad inquiry into the decisions and available information of air traffic control will be very interesting in that aspect. Responsibility is a funny thing, before you know it, you share it!
If Kiev was responsible, it will be buried behind baseless accusations and forgotten.
…There are plenty of headlines either hinting at or out right blaming Russia and the separatists though. They sure are looking "guilty" in the U.S. media right now. My hunch is that the Ukrainian government shot it down, mistaking the target for a Russian target. Could be wrong, but my instinct is to not believe what we are being told by the U.S. media. I mean they have already falsely portrayed the shoot out in Kiev in February as having been instigated by the now overthrown government at the time, later having been revealed to have been staged by the pro-EU/US forces….
the LION said:
July 20th, 2014 at 12:31 am
But the fact is that the weapon system WAS THERE and it was there as part of the UKRAINE military order of battle, so RUSSIA didn’t have to supply it to the rebels, Ukraine supplied it because they left it there!
—
Yes I agree that it’s possible that is the origin, so it is of course a conjecture that it came from Russia. However, I do seriously doubt that it was the Ukrainian military that did this. I don’t think it could have been any state military that did it, as a professional military is very unlikely to make such a mistake within civilian jet route airspace.
Except if it was deliberate.
But I refuse to contemplate insinuations and assertions based on the assumption that it was deliberate, sans material showing it was deliberate and done by a state military. And lets be honest about this, such evidence would be of a nature that a technical layman would be incompetent to even assess and draw conclusions from. Just because we want answers and consider ourselves to be very careful or honest thinkers, and good checkers of facts does not mean we actually are able to examine and draw any such conclusions.
So I feel the correct emphasis is for investigators to focus on finding out who was physically present when the missile was fired, where they went, and who they were operating with, and for now forget all of this tempting international blame-game, as it’s not going to get to any one to who really did this, and locate where they are now, first and foremost to take that system out of commission – ASAP!
The rest will follow on from there once you locate the launcher and its crew (who no doubt are being hidden and protected by the associated guilty).
Where is the launcher? Where is it’s crew Who are they? It’s that basic to crack this open and eliminate this internationally poisonous conjectural noise.
Anyone who listened to either the ABC or NBC Sunday "news" programs, heard nothing but US government propaganda from the time their alleged "experts" and "correspondants" opened their mouths until they – blessedly – shut them. How either of these networks could consider what they offered today news reporting simply astounds. Whether it concerned Israel/Gaza or Ukraine, whether it was Kerry or Bibi, not a word deviated from the ruling class, imperialist line.
The methodology of those that have stolen our democracy – if we ever had one – becomes both so obvious and egregious that even the disinterested man on the street has begun to catch on. Just every once in a while these prestitiutes refer to the public's attitude toward foreign policy as intolerant of the line presupposed and always shilled by them. They seem aware of the gulf between the people and the ruling class they represent. A day is fast coming when the Andrea Mitchels's and David Gregories of his world will confront an angry populace intent on holding them responsible for their whoreing. It can't get here fast enough to suit me.
show trial blubbering out tearful confessions. That day can't comer fast enough for me.
One doesn't need to be "pro-Russian" or think Putin is a great guy to understand that there is major bad faith being displayed on the part of the Ukraine regime and the more strident of their Western partners (especially the Anglo countries). Finger-pointing and demands the rebels and Russia provide security and allow access to the crash site stridently pushes aside the fact that Russia worked closely with Germany through the month of June to establish a ceasefire, and that Russia has been trying for many weeks to get OSCE monitors on the border. The Kiev regime began and continues a massive artillery assault on cities and villages around the same time as the plane crash – yet calls for ceasefire to allow crash investigation point fingers at only one side.
Kiev regime already sponsored false flag event with the sniper shootings in February and nothing they say can be trusted. If this is another false flag – nothing has been established yet – then its hallmark will be a shoddy and incomplete investigation which will settle nothing and fingers can and will be pointed at Russia and the rebels for the foreseeable future.
read it all…
Kiev’s evidence of militia’s responsibility for airliner crash faked – expert
A group of experts studied the tape and came to the conclusion that it was made up of numerous unrelated recordings
Specifically, the first of the three audio fragments, in which Gorlovka self-defense militia commander Igor Bezler talks about a plane shot down by the fighters, does not say anything about the type of the plane, the expert said.
At the same time, the name of the town of Yenakiyevo is clearly heard in the tape. However, the town is located about 100 km (60 miles) from the settlement of Snezhnoye where the Malaysian Boeing-777 airliner crashed… http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/741521