Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban made his first wartime visit to Ukraine on Tuesday and suggested to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky that he agree to a ceasefire with Russia.
Zelensky’s so-called “peace formula,” which he has been pushing as a way to end the war, requires a full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine before negotiations can even happen, a non-starter for talks with Moscow. Orban said he told Zelensky that he should consider agreeing to a ceasefire first.
“I asked the president to think about whether we could reverse the order, and speed up peace talks, with making a ceasefire first,” Orban said at a joint press conference with the Ukrainian leader. “A ceasefire connected to a deadline would give a chance to speed up peace talks. I explored this possibility with the president and I am grateful for his honest answers and negotiation.”
Ihor Zhovkva, the deputy head of Ukraine’s presidential official, later said that Zelensky dismissed Orban’s proposal. “The President of Ukraine listened to him, but in response, he stated Ukraine’s position – clear, understandable, and well-known,” Zhovkva said, according to The Kyiv Independent.
While Hungary is a NATO member, Orban has been one of the most prominent European critics of the proxy war in Ukraine. He has repeatedly delayed EU aid packages to Ukraine and softened some sanctions on Russia. Orban also does not allow his country’s territory to be used to transfer weapons into Ukraine.
Since February 2022, Orban has consistently called for peace talks and a ceasefire in Ukraine, putting him at odds with the US and other NATO countries. The US has discouraged peace talks throughout the war, including in March and April of 2022, when an actual peace deal was on the table.
So there is one sane voice in the West. Maybe I'll vote for Orban this November, if the world isn't ashes by then.
Unlike most of the banking apparats running most other countries, he's an actual nationalist and wants what's best for the majority of people of Magyarland.
Which one is it? You can be a nationalist, <em>or</em> you can want what's best for the majority of the nation. You can't do both.
In Hungary? Your view of what’s best is some crazy anarchist dream.
Now I'm picturing Thomas as a punk'd out Sex Pistols fan advocating for radical governance change in Britain.
I'm a punk'd out Sex Pistols fan advocating for radical governance change everywhere.
But alas the Sex Pistols gave way to Public Image Ltd. I walked out on them in 1986 when they showed up at the Palladium in Hollywood with a horn section of all things (after great sets by the Adolescents and the Dickies). Didn't mention that to Lydon when I met him in 2000, though.
You, among others, continue to fascinate me…!
There are crazy anarchists and there are rational anarchists like Thomas (and me). Rational anarchists believe that whatever governance is in place should always preserve the right of people to deal with each other only on the basis of mutual consent. Is there something about that arrangement that you object to?
Rational? Mutual consent? It’d depend on what that means, but I usually do not trust such concepts. Man isn’t rational. We’re not only biased, but we have values derived from religion. And society is often too complicated to fully understand, especially when dealing with longer time periods.
Tradition usually arises after tried and true experimentation. The original reasons for a tradition might be forgotten until the tradition is broken and problems arise anew.
Separately, man is a social being and not organised as asocial individuals.
What does that mean with regard to your statement? Well, I don’t know. I don’t know quite what you mean by rational and mutual consent. However, usually there’s some disagreement resulting.
Mutual consent = as agreed to by the people involved. What's so difficult about that to understand, unless it's that someone has something that they want to have imposed on other people?
I likely do have something I want imposed.
What do you want imposed?
Well, I wouldn’t want certain drugs legal, for one thing. I’d hinder how large institutions and businesses could become. I wouldn’t want open borders. I’m sure there’s a long list.
Yes, it sounds like there's a lot of things you want out of other people without their consent, whether or not they have any negative affect on you. That's a toxic attitude. But it's far too typical in today's society. No wonder our nation is so screwed up.
At least we have an understanding. It’s often difficult for two people to understand one another.
In fact, I would say that it's a moral deficiency to want things imposed on other people. It's the root of all evil.
I don’t intend disrespect, but those sound like the words of a fanatic. You have faith in freedom, in a rough ideology.
I’m just of a different religion. “The only good wars were the holy wars.” This is one reason people conflict.
I believe that each person should have the freedom to live their life as they see fit, as long as they don't restrict someone else's freedom by imposing their will on that person. In other words, each person should have the same rights. How is that fanatical?
It’s ridiculous. It’s a simplistic ideology for the uneducated masses. That’s how “conservatives” view ideologies like that. No society could function like that. I’m again not intending disrespect. That’s just the official view a conservative takes of ideologies like that.
Really? You think that some people should have more rights than other people? What I articulated is the only way that all people can have the same rights.
I don’t really believe in rights.
Another analogy I’ve seen is an ideology is like a virus that can spread and reproduce but cannot sustain a society.
Since you don't believe in rights then what do you think should be the basis for laws?
Religion and tradition. If you win a war, you can establish rights by force. If you lose, you might be enslaved. However, others might look down on or fear you for enslaving others.
So, a balance of power provides rights.
However, if you and another ideologue fight over universal ideology, then it will lead to chaos and destruction.
Prudence is the mark of the conservative, and I often don’t know what’s best.
You're the fanatic. I'm the reasonable one. Might makes right is your ideology. The opposite of live and let live. Might makes right is the cause of most wars. It has nothing to do with prudence.
Oh, no. Ideology leads to war. I wouldn’t get involved in most global conflicts.
When ideologues fight their latest “war to end wars,” conservatives get out of the way.
Your ideology tells you which side to take in many conflicts. I don’t have anything like that. I might get involved over some attachment, but it’s hard to know how best to protect something.
You started this conversation by attacking Thomas for his anarchist views (views that I share). And now you're claiming that conservatives just get out of the way. Put a sock in it.
You’re much too angry. This is what I mean: Ideology leads to violence. You can readily judge one state or another while I often cannot.
Separately though, anarchy would just lead to disaster domestically. It doesn’t work. It would be a transition to something else.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
In a world where Hungary was alone or there were no enemy nations outside trying their best to take over and end the cultural and historic peculiarities of its people you'd be right. In the actual neoliberal dominated world of relentless pressure to comply with USUK dictats, a nationalist is the only way to preserve the culture.
Nationalism destroys every culture it touches in the attempt to freeze it in place and use the existence of the "other" as a way to preserve power at all costs.
It’s become more clear by day that Zee boy no longer calls the shots in his country.
He calls the shots; but like US presidents since '63, he calls them under the pressure of a 45 to the head.
literally and figuratively…his ignorance does not allow him to see he was always and increasingly expendible.
I heard it was a Lone Gunman.
Waste of time.
So, in summary Orban proposes a ceasefire and the US State Department said, "no way."
I really wonder how and under what conditions they think Russia will give it all up?
They want to bleed Russia via 1000 cuts. Without war and sanctions, Russia would develop into a great power.
With war and sanctions it is even easier for Russia to develop into a great power.
Sanctions maybe, but that’s just due to the government not doing all that it should.
Even after two and half years of the war and drastic sanctions, a big part of Russian upper class is still pro-globalist, and that is the major handicap in the development.
Whenever Putin steps down, Russia will change. It’s easier to destroy than to preserve a society.
Yes, and it is particularly easy to destroy when a foreign power is ready to pay billions to you if you do it.
Russell Kirk refers to the “permanent things” in his writing. What he refers to specifically I don’t even remember, but it doesn’t matter. The concept is that if the Russian state were to collapse or change borders or become something different such as a US or Chinese client state:
even then, you’d still have things remain, remnants of what it means to be Russian. So, the permanent things can be most important. You have customs, dress, literature and music, many things.
But Putin also could destroy those things. He brings in many Asian immigrants. They’re wonderful people I’m sure, but they change the permanent things. And everything changes, but maybe some things matter.
Tho I assume President Putin will hand-pick his successor, and that person is not likely to deviate from the socio-political path Putin has charted.
Let's instead look at a generation or two from Putin's retirement.
It’s difficult to pick a successor, and it’s often difficult to remain in power. Change can be for the better or for the worse.
But change is always taking place. That’s one argument against war and revolution: Change would take place regardless. And it’s difficult to preserve a change after a hard fought war or revolution. Change is always taking place, and nothing lasts forever.
I'm inclined to agree. Simply that, the Russian Federation (and Russia historically) has always been in a precarious geographical and social position. And as such, it has required strong and cunning leaders, far more than Island North America ever has.
I think Putin et. al. in Russian leadership are playing a much longer game that they're given credit for. Yes, surprising change can happen, but less likely so in a "stacked deck" (see also : "3rd Party Candidates in US Politics")
Russia has liberal globalists, conservative imperialists, communist Cold Warriors who sometimes seem similar to conservatives, and divisive nationalists who might embroil Russia in civil war.
One time there was some proposal to relocate Moscow to the Ural Mountains for defence.
Russia has many wild ideas. Ban crypto or not. Take the genetic vaccine or not. Adopt digital currency or not. Gun rights? Greater speech rights?
Oh indeed. I do not think ANY country or nation is monolithic, even the ones portrayed as such. Where there's humans, there's a diversity of opinions and philosophies.
He’s not worried about being Fico-ed?
I hope that Orban had very tight security for his trip to Kiev.
Maybe he was sent by 5 eyes to lower the boom softly that it was over?
That's an interesting idea. It would be the smart thing for them to do. But I don't know if they're that smart. I tend to think that this is a forever project for them. The balkanization of Russia. Until dedollarization takes effect and stops them in their tracks.
It would be comical if it weren't for so many innocent lives being ruined.
Orban's proposition for ceasefire is unrealistic.
Maybe his main concern is to persuade Zelensky to stop drag by force ethnic Hungarians into the battlefield.
Also it is a signal to U.S. that Hungary can do the peacemaker job if necessary. Hungarian foreign minister is a frequent visitor to Russia.
"A ceasefire connected to a deadline would give a chance to speed up peace talks"
What's unrealistic about that ?
It is an obvious attempt to cheat Putin again. Putin told already that Russia will never agree to something like that. Ceasefire is possible only in case if Ukraine recognizes the four regions which joined Russian Federation in autumn 2022 as Russian territories, and starts to move it's military forces out from there.
Yeah, Orban is perhaps trying to split the baby. Act as the peacemaker, and differentiate himself from the rest of the US lackeys in power in NATO countries. But not so much as to actually back Russia's position,.
He, unlike the majority of European leaders, is pursuing the interests of his own country.
Hah, isn't 'nationalism' and 'national self-interest' not the new N-word, huh ? Globalise, or else.
it is a double-whammy when prefaced by "Christian"…THEN is a radioactive rock to hurl at one of them…..
He also know that is better to be with Russians. The West is weak.
Russia is offering mutually profitable cooperation. Dominated by American globalist oligarchy The West can offer them only a role of a pawn in the permanent hybrid war (which eventually can be converted into a real hot war).
Russia supplies him gas.
The point is, Russian gas is cheaper than American one, and unlike Germans, he is not ready to sacrifice his people's prosperity for American wet dreams.
You know, philadelphialawyer, the more I see out of Trump the more I come around to agreeing with you about what he would do about Gaza. I'm not quite there yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if I was totally wrong. My view was based on the idea that what we are doing in support of Israel is doing extraordinary harm to our standing in the world, and that regardless of Trump's view of muslims he would not be so irrational and unhinged to continue that course of action if he were the president. Now I'm starting to think that I may have misjudged him, and he really is that irrational and unhinged. I guess nothing would surprise me at this point.
I have no doubt that P4L (President 4 Life, in case W. Paine is confused) Zelenskiyy would use a temporary ceasefire as a chance to gear up for more futile assaults on Russian lines.
Unfortunately, I think even a full peace treaty would just be a pause until a partially or wholly reconstituted Ukraine felt emboldened enough to attack the Russian Federation. Especially when Aryan nationalists assume the political power they feel their supreme military contributions have won them since 2014.
No wonder President Putin wants a permanently weakened, neutral Ukraine. Absent a Belarus style of sympathetic vassal, Kiev will hold a 100-year grudge it means to see out.
"Aryan nationalists" are just a pawn in globalist game. They were created by American globalist oligarchy. They are too weak to become a frankenstein monster.
I…recall that said about the Afghan muja'ha'deen. And Al Qaeda itself in August 2001. And Al-Q's splinter faction ISIL in Iraq. And the Houthenese in Yemen. And the Hamassian forces in Gaza before Oct 7th.
And the Hezbollennians in Lebanon right now.
And the Christian Nationalists backing Trump and Project 2025 right now.
Why would they give him what he’s been trying and failing to take, as a condition of him stopping trying and failing to take it?
Carry on with the war, what is problem? Putin's offer was an answer to "Zelensky's Switz peace initiative", no more than that.
The goal is Ukraine, not some small territory in the East.
Take all or nothing. Ukraine belongs to Russia 🇷🇺
The Baltics and part of Poland belongs to us too.
No negotiations. No ceasefire.
We are fighting to restore the historical motherland. .
Dont let the West propaganda fool you.
You may fight for whatever you wish but Putin is fighting for security and prosperity of his country. Before the coup 2014, he was okay to leave Crimea in Ukraine (despite the Crimean referendum in early 1990th), after the coup, he was okay to leave Donbass in Ukraine (despite the referendum for independence in Donbass), after beginning of the special military operation, he was okay to leave Khreson and Zaporozhskaya oblasts in Ukraine. Now he is okay to leave Odessa and Kharkov in Ukraine, and it is really generous of him considering the plight where Ukraine is now.
"Whoever does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart. Whoever wants it back has no brain."
A Russian general is thought to have coined the expression. It is more famously attributed to President Putin some years after.
The framework of the expression is a lot older than that. It goes back at least as far as François Guizot in the 19th century — “Not to be a republican at twenty is proof of want of heart; to be one at thirty is proof of want of head” — and was widely attributed to Clemenceau in the early 20th century, with “socialist” substituted for “republican.”
That sounds similar to the old saying, "A liberal is just a conservative who hasn't been mugged yet."
I wish Peter Sellers were still with us. His role in the Pink Panther movies cannot be equalled. I guess at least his socio-political quotes live on ?
Zelensky’s so-called “peace formula,” which he has been pushing as a way to end the war, requires a full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine before negotiations can even happen
He's like the US when it comes to "negotiations". They want everything up front before talks even start. I guess he doesn't realize that he is in no position to make such demands or he's delusional enough to think the US/NATO will go to war for his country.
There's a reason why Russia has the best chess players
The best everything.
I'll give you top-notch cosmonauts, for sure !
Or, perhaps, he's between a rock and a hard place? Z stays in power, and maybe even stays alive, courtesy of NATO and the hardliners in the Ukraine. He can't afford to buck either one of them. If he starts warming up to Russia, who's to say what his shelf life would be?
Your take is much more probable than mine. At one time I actually felt pity for him but now his performance is so convincing that I just think he is starting to believe his own words.
the deadly combination of megalomania, arrogance and sycophantry got the best of this failed actor and CIA s-tool…. he chose his actions..we shall see if he is man enough to accept the consequences of those actions..
Please dont insult our Z. It stands for much more than Zelensky. What’s wrong with you bloggers here. If you support Russia, show some respect https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/921ba202a08179f9ddc9b967860e471414d5b1dbaa893cf9cd3a421fecec3535.jpg
I support the US. Boo Russia. The US needs to fully exit and save its money.
The US is like Egypt: Our wars are white elephant projects used to pay off supporters.
First off, I don’t take orders from you.
Secondly, I am antiwar. I am not a cheerleader for Russia.
Thirdly, you can take your war porn and you know what you can do with it.
This will only end when the Ukrainian government falls to decent Ukrainians who have no use for the senile commander in chief or the detritus being broadcast by his damaged neurons.
Biden’s envoy to Hungary lashes Orbán for backing Trump
No other U.S. ally has so “overtly and tireless” campaigned for the Republican candidate, says David Pressman.
U.S. President Joe Biden appointed David Pressman envoy to Hungary in 2022.
JULY 3, 2024
BY SEB STARCEVIC
The American ambassador to Budapest hit out at Hungary’s Prime Minister Viktor Orbán on Tuesday for siding with Donald Trump in the upcoming U.S. presidential election.
Speaking at an Independence Day reception in Budapest, Ambassador David Pressman said Orbán “continues to remind us, daily, of who he would like to win that election, who he would vote for if he were an American, which he is not.”
“We have no other ally or partner — not a single one — that similarly, overtly and tirelessly, campaigns for a specific candidate in an election in the United States of America, seemingly convinced that, no matter what, it only helps Hungary, or at least helps him personally,” he added.
the Actor/Grifter/CIA/Moneylaundering s-tool could use our looted taxdollars to buy a $4M Bugatti but NOT(3 FREEAKING YEARS LATER)a dress-shirt, tie and a SUIT!! lazy and arrogant and shameless…sycophant for the globalists and warmongers..foul
If this street cat doesn’t want a ceasefire then good, we have more reason to exterminate him and his people.
We will take Ukraine faster.
We’ will do the same to Poland and the Baltics when we are finished taking Ukraine back. Surrender and we will let you work for us, Resist and we will take more of our righteous land.
Show no merci.
“We will take Ukraine faster.”
Well, it would be hard to do it slower, so …
"Show no merci."
Hey, a 'thank-you' is ALWAYS polite.