The Dutch foreign minister said that Amsterdam does not object to Kiev using F-16s to strike targets inside Russia once the advanced aircraft reach Ukraine. The announcement is a major escalation as F-16s are capable of carrying nuclear weapons.
On Friday, the Dutch Foreign Minister Hanke Bruins Slot gave a green light to Ukraine to hit Russian military targets with F-16s. “If you have the right to self-defense, there are no borders for the use of weapons. This is a general principle,” she said, adding that Ukraine may also use Danish-supplied F-16 jets for operations in Russian territory.
The Danish FM, Lars Lokke Rasmussen, confirmed that allowing Ukraine to attack Russia with F-16s was Denmark’s policy. “The short answer is yes.” He continued, “We made it clear from the very beginning… that this is part of self-defense so that it would also be possible to attack military targets on the aggressor’s territory.”
The statement comes as a growing number of NATO members, including the US and Germany, have given Ukraine approval to use their weapons to attack Russian territory. After London gave Kiev the green light earlier this month, the Kremlin issued a stern warning to the UK. “Any British military facilities and equipment on the territory of Ukraine and beyond could be a response to Ukrainian strikes with the use of British weapons on the territory of Russia,” the Russian Foreign Ministry said in a statement. “The ambassador was called upon to reflect on the inevitable catastrophic consequences of such hostile steps by London.”
Moscow will likely see attacks on Russian soil by F-16s as even more provocative as the aircraft is capable of carrying nuclear weapons. Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has explained that the Kremlin views F-16 deliveries to Ukraine as a “nuclear” threat.
Last year, President Joe Biden signed off on a NATO proposal to train Ukrainian pilots on the F-16, then transfer dozens of the aircraft to Kiev. However, the program has faced several delays and a shortage of pilots. Ukrainian officials have said the setbacks mean the F-16 will have little impact on the battlefield once they arrive, as Moscow has had time to prepare for the deployment.
Kyle Anzalone is the opinion editor of Antiwar.com, news editor of the Libertarian Institute, and co-host of Conflicts of Interest.
"If you have the right to self-defense, there are no borders for the use of weapons. This is a general principle." Well, isn't that an interesting way of putting things. Who knows, Russia may choose to adhere to the wisdom of Bruins Slot and return the favor.
Russian subs have probably been positioned. Satellites have probably locked on targets in the rogue NATO countries and the U.S. I really wanted to sell my house and move to a nicer one in another state. How can I do that when much of the U.S. has been leveled and glows in the dark, and I, and my family members succumb to radiation sickness. I read "On the Beach" as a high school senior. I never thought it could happen. F*ck Biden, the democratic party, the republican party (actually, the uniparty).
These latest announcements that NATO countries are allowing the Ukrainians to use their weapons to attack Russia are signalling desperation mainly. It is damage control in response to reality destroying the Western narrative. After the narrative build from the Russian weakness theme completely collapsed, and they failed to make the stalemate stick beyond the circlejerk of true believers, the message we are now asked believe is to once more distrust our lying eyes. Ukraine isn't losing at all, it's all because the West held Ukraine steady on a leash, would hold them back and restrain them unfairly at every turn, so that if only if the West would have let them go attack the Russians sooner Russia would have already been defeated and there would have been statues of Bandera in Moscow by now.
But it was already the case that they attacked Russia whenever they could and did this with the active assistance, using intelligence and operational specialism where needed of NATO personel and assets.
I don't think the Russians have necessarily become more incentivized with time to spend much attention to the noise and the fanfare of Western narrative control that we use to deceive ourselves. Served them well so far.
Maybe Joe Biden will up the ante and declare that Ukraine can use US weapons to strike Gaza!
The amount of surprise that would evoke could serve as a definition for the concept of zero.
Like these F-16s will ever get close enough to fire into Russia… The Russians will put up fighter jets that aren't usually used in this war to engage from long-range the F-16s. Russian missiles have greater range than any western missiles. And the Russian fighters don't have to worry about Ukrainian air defenses much any more. They can penetrate deep into Ukrainian air space at a high altitude.
And Belarus has S-400 air defenses which probably are tied into the Russian air defense network which can detect up to 250 miles into Ukraine. And the Black Sea Fleet can use their air defenses to detect anything further south. And of course there are the equivalent Russian AWACs. With all this being networked, it's hard to see how an F-16 can get very far into Ukraine without being spotted and splashed. Very low altitude might work – for a while – if Ukrainian pilots have experience flying low, else they'll end up part of the landscape.
That's assuming there are any airfields left in Ukraine. Russia has been blowing up the remainder they didn't blow up before. Any airfields used in Poland and Romania will end up getting hit eventually.
"The Russians will put up fighter jets that aren't usually used in this war to engage from long-range the F-16s."What fighters would that be(the SU57?). And why is it important it is the long range of the Russian missiles that count – as you point out yourself.
"And the Russian fighters don't have to worry about Ukrainian air defenses much any more. They can penetrate deep into Ukrainian air space at a high altitude."
So why are they not already doing so – bombing of Lviv should then be possible hampering western weapons supplies.
"And Belarus has S-400 air defenses which probably are tied into the Russian air defense network which can detect up to 250 miles into Ukraine."
Fair point – however the Belarussians have so far not wanted to participate directly – you could argue that this is about to change, is that your argument?
"And the Black Sea Fleet can use their air defenses to detect anything further south."
The Black Sea Fleet has been pushed east and south of Crimea – they do not provide the coverage you suggest.
"And of course there are the equivalent Russian AWACs."
Used even further away than the Black Sea Fleet currently – the last one they lost was Near Krasnodar.
"That's assuming there are any airfields left in Ukraine. Russia has been blowing up the remainder they didn't blow up before."
Sure they just bombed the buildings at the Zaporizhzhia (civilian) airport so by now they have hit even the airports 40 kilometers from the front.
The point about it being civilian is not that it should be out of bounds but that the F16 likely only can use the airports that was set up for civilian traffic – so there are not as many to hit.
Yet the proposition that they all have been hit is clearly absurd – also repairing the landing strip is not a high tech job – so while not easy it is not that hard either.
UNFORTUNATELY THEN RUSSIA CAN STRIKE ANY CITY OR MILITARY SITE IN NETHERLANDS.
FJB
Can but wont – just like the fact that Russia are using North Korean and Iranian weapons to strike in Ukraine has not meant that the west has struck sites in any of those countries.
The major difference being Russia is buying these weapons with their own funds. Ukraine is being given their weapons by western countries trying to provoke and prolong a bigger war.
True – not sure that changes the laws concerning their use. And the basis for claiming that the west is trying to provoke a bigger war is patently false – had that been the case they would not have procrastinated as long as they did with each increase in weapons systems.
But absolutely correct the west is trying to postpone the time that the Ukrainians would be forced to surrender – so yes they are effectually prolonging the war, though Russia is the one which could end it in a day.
Sadly not true. It isn't Russia unwilling to end the war. At any stage. They were ready, remained ready and are ready today to enter negotations to end the war. It is the US who created the conditions that made the conflict unavoidable. Then exacerbate it whenever they could. They were warned. And warned. And warned. They chose to make the avoidance of war impossible, then undermined negotations to make ending the war impossible, multiple times – and at a stage of the war when the prospects were much more favorable for Ukraine than they are now. And tomorrow they will be worse still.
The US is still the only party who can end the war, but they do not want the war to end.
That is because, bullshit aside, it ofcourse never was about Ukraine at all. The naivety would be adorable if we were dealing with children. But it quickly loses that cuteness factor when were dealing with adults. Then it just gets annoyingly stupid.
So Ukraine is a means to an end, not the end. It was about weakening Russia, about the hope of breaking up Russia and installing a pliant puppet regime. It was about preserving US world hegemony. There is no reverse or even a brake to this policy. There is no plan B. If there was even a plan A it's probably something like if no hegemony then no world.
Well they need not negotiate they can just withdraw – that alone would end the war, but they are not prepared to do that.
The US could not prevent the Afghans from collapsing facing a much weaker enemy – they cannot prevent the Ukrainians from negotiating if that is what they want.
I'm sure you are right Putin will keep demanding more – if the Ukrainians want then they can agree to the Russian terms at any time they want.
The problem for the Russians is that anything but completely leaving Ukrainian territories will keep the sanctions on for decades.
No the Russians are the only ones who can end the conflict overnight – even if the US was to withdraw support (as they did for 6+ months just recently) the other NATO countries will continue to support the Ukrainians (as they did).
The Ukrainians beg to differ – they have been in a fight with the Russians since 2014 with very variating support from any outsiders.
If the government that came after Yanukovych had not changed as much as it has, you could have had a point. However the rightwing extremists who gained a lot of seats in the 2014 election lost them all by the 2019 election.
If they were puppets then they sure had a strange way of behaving
It is remarkable that you would think that the US can somehow cause a takeover in Ukraine and not having it overturn without even a company of soldiers on the ground while not being able to counteract some Afghan rebels after having had thousands of soldiers on the ground for 20 years.
Your arguments do not add up!
Of course, people who attribute some truth to the narrative constructed in our media operate under the assumption that Russia is conducting its special operation in Ukraine out of choice, that it is a matter of a war of choice. The logic emanating from faulty assumptions isn't going to deliver valid conclusions of any kind. Unlikely even by accident.
From the perspective of the Russians, which is the only perspective that matters if you want to understand Russia – which in the current intellectual (or rather lack thereof) Western environment is something we don't do and would make anyone daring to engage in what in normal times would be regarded as common sense, something akin a traitor – turning Ukraine into a NATO bulwark on their borders is an intolerable existential threat. And this isn't exactly guesswork either as they warned exhaustively, leaving no room for doubt sizeable enough to fit an atom in, that they weren't going to tolerate that.
But the US thought (in sofar as any thought was actually put into it) they could just ignore Russian interests and if they protested too much, the US would just destroy Russia with their just aquired Ukrainian proxy army, nurtured West-Ukrianian nationalism and sanction warfare in which the whole world – not just their EU puppets, some servile Asian countries and their steadfast microscopic allies in the Pacific – would just follow whenever they ordered them to do whatever.
Then after Ukraine would have defeated an impoverished and demoralized Russia in which Russians would turn on Putin, the victorious Americans would together with their newly installed friendly regime in Moscow take on these uppity Chinese, Taiwan being their new Ukraine. Time for Churchill and Chamberlain to move East.
Or something like that.
Then totally unexpectedly reality struck and resulted in the inextricable mess we are in now, slowly but surely escalating to the point were nuclear war is no longer going to be confined inside the realm of the theoretical, despite no one but the grotesquely criminally insane or perhaps mindnumbingly idiotic – the likes of Lindsey Graham – wanting this outcome.
What would have happened had the Russians not invaded – you have not yet argued why this is not a war of choice.
The problem with that narrative is that there was no chance of Ukraine joining NATO in 2021.
Which is why Not only Hungary and Turkey but also Germany and France would have used their VETO to nix any proposal to allow Ukraine to join.
The only bits that makes any sense in that paragraph is that the US would implement sanctions – these would be welcomed by Europe and reluctantly complied with by much of the rest of the world.
Not much of a chance – the west would not wish to even try to play a role in who takes over after Putin.
The scenario you describe could happen to a non nuclear power, but not even a nuclear free Russia would qualify.
If this was that easy then the US would have done it to Iran and Venezuela already – try a theory that would work to explain the world we actually live in now.
Can you explain what the Russians can win by committing nuclear suicide – how does that outcome in anyway improve their prospects?
Even if they lose in Ukraine they are no more chastised than the US was after the Bay of Pigs or the Cuba crisis.
SIMPLICIUS Ѱ
@simpatico771
⚡️🇷🇺🪖 Rostec plans to open more than 4 thousand vacancies for Northern Military District veterans.
A year ago, the Defenders of the Fatherland State Fund and the Rostec State Corporation joined forces to provide social support to veterans of the Northern Military District and the families of fallen soldiers.
One of the key results of the interaction was the employment of demobilized military personnel at Rostec enterprises. Additionally, more than 4 thousand vacancies for veterans of the Northern Military District are currently being considered.
Another area of work with the Foundation was the creation of a Rehabilitation Center for SVO participants. This project was launched on behalf of the President. The most modern prosthetics center will operate here. Combat veterans will be able to undergo various rehabilitation activities and engage in various sports, including 14 Paralympic sports.
“Hundreds of Rostec employees today carry out combat missions in the Northern Military District zone. Their support is our most important task. We keep their jobs and provide them with the necessary financial assistance. We provide families of fighters with sanatorium-resort recreation and medical services. We will organize other measures, including targeted training for children. At the same time, the Foundation coordinates the issue of providing federal support for veterans of the Northern Military District and the families of fallen soldiers. We involve SVO participants as mentors in projects aimed at patriotic education of youth,” said Deputy General Director of Rostec, a member of the bureau of the Union of Mechanical Engineers of Russia Nikolai Volobuev.
Rostec and the Fund will continue to work together. This experience can be used in the formation of a federal model of the employment system for former military personnel for their successful social adaptation.
9:25 AM · Jun 1, 2024
Well Amsterdam, you might get a little gift in the mail shortly. I cannot believe the patience of the Russians.
If you find yourself unable to believe e.g. the patience of the Russians – possibly it is because there is a problem with the basis for your implicit assumptions, here that it is on account of patience that the Russians have not nuked some NATO country.
Your comment makes no sense
Mine however are arguments that you could if you had counter arguments engage with – your comment however is just an empty statement not even trying to point out what you have a problem understanding.
It is because what Mike is referring to is that we in the West are very lucky to have in Russia, as is the case in for example China or Iran governments that are very capable, rational, tempered and imperturbable. They do act however in accordance with their respective national interests, which makes them nigh impossible to understand for the Western political elites, who are in contrast often incompetent, under- or uneducated, often irrational, either emotionally or ideologically driven or both or perhaps slightly less worrisome merely corrupted by a system designed to serve the narrow interests of a donor class over national interests.
If that was/is the case you should have no problem pointing out where our politicians are not acting in accordance with our national interests.
The difference between the old world and the new world is that, they value their lives a lot more because they’ve lost more..
We oppose Putin to avoid aggressive wars of territorial conquest, nuclear proliferation and hence a much higher chance that we'll perish in nuclear war.
Okay, TWO huge questions..
"…Kiev using F-16s to strike targets inside Russia…"
The Russian Federation is not Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya – anywhere the US and/or NATO have enjoyed air superiority.
How does anyone think those F-16's will get into Russian Federation airspace AND out again ?
"“If you have the right to self-defense, there are no borders for the use of weapons. This is a general principle…"
Okay, so my second question – the West is thus fine with the Hamassian attack on Oct 7th using THAT SAME EXACT RATIONALE ?
Utter Insanity. That threatens us all.
Love the description of the F-16 as "advanced aircraft". High Praise Indeed for a 45 year old relic (the Dutch F-16s were produced starting in 1978) that was being retired and scrapped by Netherlands as "at the end of its useful life", by a military that was cutting spending on everything including (maybe especially?) maintenance to the bare bones following the end of the Cold War. MAYBE the dutch junk will still fly; but just as an example, of the first 100-odd dutch/norwegian Leopard 1 tanks supplied to Ukraine, over 90 were deemed "unserviceable" and rejected by the Ukrainians. And that was after they had all been "rehabbed" prior to sending. And a tank is a much simpler, less maintenance intensive piece of equipment than an "advanced aircraft". So Dumb. see here (from the Kyiv Independent, an organ of the Ukrainian government, so the truth is likely worse)
https://kyivindependent.com/media-ukraine-refuses-to-accept-some-leopard-1-tanks-from-germany-denmark-due-to-defects/