NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg on Thursday went after China for its trade relationship with Russia, saying Beijing must reduce its trade with Moscow to have good relations with the West.
Western officials often accuse China of supporting Russia’s military, but there’s no evidence of Beijing shipping weapons. Instead, they point to China’s export of semiconductors and raw materials.
“Russia’s friends in Asia are vital for its war effort. First and foremost, China. China is propping up Russia’s war economy,” Stoltenberg said. “Sharing high-end technology like semiconductors and other dual-use items with Russia. Last year, Russia imported 90 percent of its micro-electronics from China. Used to produce missiles, tanks, and aircraft.”
Stoltenberg also accused China of “fueling” the war even though Beijing has consistently called for peace talks while the US and leading NATO countries have discouraged diplomacy and have dumped tens of billions of dollars worth of weapons into Ukraine.
“China says it wants good relations with the West. At the same time, Beijing continues to fuel the largest armed conflict in Europe since World War Two. They cannot have it both ways,” Stoltenberg said.
US and other Western sanctions on Russia and China have naturally led to the two countries increasing their trade relationship. Responsible Statecraft reported on Wednesday that trade between Russia and China has risen by 26% since 2022. Russia said it has almost completely dropped the dollar in its trade with China.
Sharing high-end technology like semiconductors and other dual-use items with Russia.
So the same things that China sells the NATO countries. Is telling your suppliers who they’re allowed to sell to part of the Libertardian Free Market religion?
Rules based order, we make them rules, sucka!
I was not aware that Stoltenberg is a libertarian. I learn something new every day, whether I want to or not.
I suspect he is a $hitlib like almost all of Europe.
How is authoritarian DPRC at all a libertarian country ? I know they are largely Communist In Name Only, but, they are faaar from even a shallow dip into the Libertarian Right quadrant of the political grid.
Also, side note – was a big fan of your dad’s work on the 70s “Incredible Hulk” TV show.
The NATO countries are the ones who always claim to be in favor or no-holds-barred free trade.
He was a distant relative apparently. I always liked him better in ‘The Magician’ or ‘My Favorite Martian’ myself.
And “Eddies Father”. And “My Favorite Martian”.
“Mork & Mindy”
Japan is held up as an example of Western capitalism and its advantages. In reality it is a capitalism of a managed economy, a different breed than ours. China has similar capitalist architecture, while maintaining the name “communist”. China is unfettered with wars, bases all over the planet to bleed it of financial resources. Our guys in D.C. think in 5 year increments. China thinks in 100 year increments. What defeated us in Vietnam is the 5 year approach, thinking everything would be solved by carpet bombing. Rather, the Vietnam fighters looked long range, with commitment. Stayed the course. We just look to quick fixes, with no forward planning. We really have stupid people in D.C.
Irony being, the DPRC still uses 5-Year Plans. Which, for their space program I like because they’re ambitious.
Also the Afghanese thought long-game; I think they know they’re the Graveyard of Empires and revel in it.
Say all you want… Not gonna happen… Because it’s non of NATO business…!
How is it not NATO’s business – does the NATO countries not get to decide how they see their relations to China?
That’s called interfering in China’s internal business you idiot…!
No that it most certainly is not – telling a trade partner that the good relationship is in jeopardy if they continue to trade with in this case Russia is called fair warning – China’s foreign trade policy cannot be called internal business no matter how you look at it.
I thought capitalism was unfettered trade among countries, the invisible hand and all of that.
No country has pure capitalism as a system – did you not know?
That’s dumb.
Possibly – could you say why you think so?
Sadly no they take their lead from Washington remember your with us or against us .
The US has had several trade wars with EU, so on that you are just plain wrong, in this case the US and European interests are perfectly aligned – as in very few of the European politicians are going against the will of the majority of their electorates.
Hey Stoltenberg. Stop the projection.
He can’t. An Evil Clown has to clown.
How much does he make (not how much does he EARN)?
You can tell how much China cares about ‘relations with the west’ by who they send to meet Scholz and Yellen and Blinken on their arrival(s).
Brought tears to my eyes. But what would bring joy to my heart is if they refuse to let their planes land in China to start with.
Land in Taiwan. Travel to the Mainland by a slow boat.
No, walk.
China will not to agree to US demands as it is the ultimate target of American foreign policy. Washington doesn’t have to fight Moscow, but it does have to fight Beijing – if it’s to retain global hegemony, which no great power has ever managed to do so. It is tripping towards world war, blindly convinced of victory. They fail to grasp a simple truth of history, and unless they do humanity will perish. It comes down to a simple syllogism: every empire in history has eventually faced the war it was trying to avoid; everyone wants to avoid WWIII; therefore that is the fate that awaits. Paradoxically, the only chance of avoiding that fate is to accept it. Getting this message across is the challenge, which I explore this in my new e-pamphlet The Doomsday Syllogism.
The US still gets the vast majority of goods from China. There has been no great re-industrializing for manufacturing here. Are they so delusional that they believe they will command the mainland for cheap products?
Yes. The Devil is in the details.
[sarcasm filter “ON”]
Delusional? Hardly at all. The Empire will go to war with China and make all kinds of demands.
During the war, there will be a lot of upset because they aren’t getting their iPhones and all the other goodies from their $450B+ shopping list. Remember that phrase during COVID “supply chain disruptions”?
That’s when the Empire will demand China to correct supply logistics because it’s not fair that Empire’s citizens can’t have iPhones during their war with China. Darn it! That just ain’t nice!
We better declare war on you!
Wait a sec, we are at war with you!?!?
Huh!?……What!?
[sarcasm filter “OFF”]
Price of stuff that was manufactured in China will be higher. We may shift more production to Vietnam or India or Bangladesh. China is the second greatest holder of U.S. monetary instruments (second only to Japan).
China has cut is Dollar holdings by billions and continues to do so just as many countries are doing it will take time but the Dollar will eventually collapse i would say maybe 50 / 100 years thats how long it took the Dollar to replace the pound unless WW3 breaks out then all debts will be cancelled , wait a minute is that what the yanks are planning war with China cancels all it`s debts to China ? .
But how can China go on without valuable pieces of paper emblazoned with the portraits of 18th century Americans? All of whom are spin-cycling in their graves right now.
Shift to Yaun for payment, seeking increased trade with Russia and Southeast Asia, South American countries. And Russia.
Even if America and it`s LACKEYS were to re introduce manufacturing they would not be able to compete with China , India ect ect ect energy costs alone are crippling many EU countries with Germany being the worst off , not only that they are patting each other on the back for cutting themselves off from all that cheap energy from Russia and now paying mega bucks for American energy .
What, has the cost of energy in Germany finally gone back up to pre-2022 levels after the massive price falls over the last year and a half?
Shipping LNG across the Atlantic still costs more than opening a valve in Europe.
Yes, it does.
And yet the price of LNG is lower in Germany now than it was before the war started. $27.89 US per MMBtu as of January of 2022. $8.51 US per MMBtu as of last month.
Electricity: 167.87 euros per megawatt hour in January of 2022. 64.66 euros per megawatt hour as of last month.
Gasoline, however, has gone up from $1.97 US per liter in January 2022 to $203 US per liter last month, although it has spent a substantial portion of the time between the beginning of the war and now at lower prices.
Subsidized by the u.s.?
U.S. is willing to play loss-leader to keep Germans using American LNG.
When did Norway and Qatar become US states?
After the Apartheid State of Israel, Ukraine, and Iraq did – yet well before the District of Columbia or Puerto Rico ever will.
The strange thing is how many countries are willing to see their countries turned to ash and their inhabitants vapourized on the altar of solidarity .
All of us, or none of us.
China must cut trade with Russia
And Russia must cut trade with China.
Everyone must cut trade with Iran.
But please–everyone must buy US treasuries.
But how will they survive without valuable pieces of paper featuring portraits of 18th century Americans? Or to be more accurate, computer code representing such pieces of paper?
Because we are so f*cking in debt due to the insipid brand of capitalism that depends on weapons manufacturing and sales. Orwell was more right than even he thought.
You appear not to know why economic agents buy US treasuries – it is not because the US needs them to do so.
That is the heart of the beast. As long as people are willing to lend the Treasury their money, the US doesn’t need to worry about the size of the debt. But now the challenge to US hegemoney/creditworthyness has put that under threat thereby forcing Washington as the interest rate rises to proportionally increase its bellicosity.
Empire/NATO: “China, we demand that you cut trade with Russia! Ok? Remember, we still plan on going to war with you even though we imported $450B from you last year. We really need your stuff since we can’t make it on our own anymore.”
China: “No”
You might have mentioned that “Russia and China are stupid” before you wake up our grumpy Polish neighbor. Don’t say I didn’t warn you. He will soon be bombarding you with “statistics.”
“US and other Western sanctions on Russia and China have naturally led to the two countries increasing their trade relationship.” Look, I’m really stupid. But even I saw that coming. …One more thing. …When does sanctioning a country makes them friendly? …No. I’m really asking. …Like in the short term, long term, or ever? …Okay, you got me. We first sanction, blockade, then we destroy them in war and they become our slaves or vassal states might actually work.
It was not that long ago that China and Russia were feuding over their border.
It`s called treating each other with respect which can over come anything , unlike the Americans who treat everyone with utter contempt giving anyone who dosen`t toe their line ultimatums your with us or against us .
The ruling class in the US is like an Ostrich sticking its head ion the sand as the Lion approaches. They just don’t see whats coming. The end of the American Empire is getting closer every day.Worsening relations with the rest of the world will only speed up the process.
America and it`s NATO LACKEYS will never take on Russia or China because they have equal military strenght , a US General said America / NATO don`t fight unless they have over whelming air superiority ie they can impose no fly zones the very thing some of the NATO LACKEYS called for in UKRAINE and scared the hell out the Americans who soon binned the idea , can you imagine all those so called stealth fighters being shot down in a turkey shoot .
Hmmm. The DPRC is not in the North Atlantic; so NATO has no standing. Jens-y From The Block can stay in his own gat-damn’d lane, perhaps. Doesn’t NATO already have a war it can’t win simmering on its near eastern flank ??
Looks like China has a tough choice. Do they continue to accept worthless Russian oil and natural resources for their exports, or do they cut them off so as to maintain their supply of valuable pieces of paper with 18th century American printed on them?
Tough?
Sure and the Russians can buy everything the west buys from China – not!
Someone who buys less but offers something of value in exchange for the goods vs someone who buys a lot but offers you ever depreciating pieces of paper as payment. Hmmm.
You are absolutely right the Russians are paying prices far above the market prices and they are getting below market prices for their products. But a 140 even a 180 million poor Russians cannot replace the trade of even just the 500 million fairly rich European – that only gets absurdly much worse when you add the people of North America.
People are only rich if they have something of value to offer in exchange for goods and services. Deindustrialization and weaponization of the dollar have eroded what the West can bring to the table in these regards.
And yet we buy very very significant more of the Chinese than the Russians do – orders of magnitude I think.
Like the EU cut it`s self off from Russian cheap energy now every economy is in trouble Germany being the worst hit recent reports say Germany is now in recession from powerfull to powerless .
They’re a big fan of President Benjamin Franklin.
i would love to see Jens doing this speech, cause by my highly detailed and painstakingly completed estimations, his head is spinning at over 10,ooo mph…At least https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/03f7747adf3c1a986a48e6dcdb91fceb9a2a9ebf4df5267f47c87f7551c52039.jpg
For the U.S. to try to jawbone China is a joke, like Israel they will listen, move their heads up & down and do what they think is best for them & Russia. The war on terror diverted attention from real war with peer nuclear & missile military technology to chasing nomads. Twenty years or vital R&D lost & squandered. Billions pissed away also on the terrorist project all wasted. We were duped by the Zio- Nazis!!!!! The U.S. is losing or lost it’s hard power primacy, and this Gaza genocide debacle is crushing her soft power clout even faster!!!
p.s. The Chinese do not take kindly to being dictated to by former colonial powers who held China down in the 1800s!
The older Chinese also have vivid memories of the brutality of the Japanese in the 1930’s – 1940’s. It was about the oil. (by the way, China oil production ranks seventh in the world)
China should tell Europe to go f…k themself, although that’s not the way the Chinese speak. The arrogance of the ‘Rules Based Order’.
I think China has been telling all it’s aggressors to go f*ck themselves all along.
With a smile on their face, counting their money on the way to the bank……
I think the Chinese would rather not lose the trade – they would hate to be seen as having their trade policy change by any foreign nation so what they choose to do is less obvious.
So far many Chinese companies have ended their trade with Russia, but that is on an individual company level.
Stoltenberg is a horse’s behind.
1842-1898: China is not the same country the British Empire and NATO merchants invaded, divided like a wedding cake, and hooked the population on opium.
NATO did not exist before 1949 – if you want to make it out as if China has historical reasons to resent the west, then there is a much more compelling reason for them to resent the Russians.
1858 and again in 1860 Russia annexed very significant parts of the Chinese north east: the Amur.
The reason that the Chinese are not likely to act in any overt way to ‘placate’ the west is that they are to put it mildly not happy to be seen to be pushed around.
And they have interests in Russia’s continued existence under Putin’s autocratic rule.
Their main problem is that they are (to a large extent) an export driven economy and the Russians (and the other BRICS countries) are completely unable to replace the west as customers.
That’s pretty much a short sighted statement since it is the west actively bribing, complaining and disrupting Chinese increase trade and ties with Africa. The west wants Chinese depended on them solely if they move to improve Africa/Latin nation trade and purchasing power the west calls it a threat.
It will only end in war, Iraq proves the west is a murderous hypocrite that really ain’t worth a comment on antiwar.
I’m surprised the UN hasn’t removed every single country that invaded Iraq including the Ukraine which did from it’s membership.
The Chinese are not trying to get the Africans to replace the west as costumers – for that the African nations have far too little purchasing power – that trade is about primary sector products.
No the threat is about raw materials and is not threatening the west’s position as the largest consumer of Chinese exports.
Seeing that you have already made up your mind that the whole west is collectively responsible for the choices made over 20 years ago I tend to agree you are not really worth the while to engage with.
A good lot of countries would then no longer be in the UN system – kind of ruining the whole idea – not a well thought out idea.
The entire world will be held responsible for Iraq.. don’t you understand…
No how do you see that – none not Donald Rumsfeld, nor Dick Chaney and most certainly not George Bush – not even Blair or even any of the other leaders have been held responsible. The Iraq war was a scandal but far from the first and very unlikely to be the last.
China trades with both Ukraine and Russia because they are neutral. Countries have a right to be neutral, not every country has to participate in our wars.
Yes China has a right to trade with what countries it wants, as do the NATO countries. Stoltenberg is not proposing that the Chinese participates in the war on the Ukrainian side.
Stoltenberg is only saying that they risk the relationship i.e. the trade with the NATO countries if they continue their trade with them.
No need for them to participate, but they may have to chose with whom they prefer to keep their trade.
After Iraq, every single mouth in the west needs to be closed
Why – a good lot of us protested the Iraq war – and no Iraqi territory was annexed.
No Jewish territory was annexed during WW2.
No such territory existed to be annexed.
No Jewish territory existed during WWII – your point being???
As I recall, during the American occupation of Iraq, Americans didn’t even need a passport to travel to Iraq.
If not “annexed”, then at very least, “domesticated”.
No annexed is very different from not needing a passport – in EU we have more rights in other EU countries than a US citizen had in Iraq during the US occupation, more importantly the Iraqi citizens were not subject to US laws for the future and US citizens could not get elected to the Iraqi government.
And were dose that IDIOT Stoltenburg propose to take all Western business the majority of the worlds communities are with Russia .
I’m not sure I get your point – the majority of the worlds trade certainly is not with Russia, so what do you mean by ‘communities‘?
When a threat is “not a threat”.
“Real nice economy – shame if something happened to it…”
The west has every right to decide with whom it wants to trade – if a country decides to use its resources to help a country actively trying to undermine the rules based world order, the west has every right to apply sanctions to trade with that country.
Since this would anyway be the long term consequence of breaking down that world order the countries that want this world order to be broken down should not rely upon that order to help them break it down.
Every individual has every right to decide with whom he or she wants to trade.
Regimes don’t have rights. They just have violently seized power.
Democratic governments have the right which we grant them by voting them in and not opposing them. It is a group decision if you do not like what the group has decided then you are free to stand for office on a different platform, leave the group area or abide by by the decision even though it is not as you like it.
Do you fundamentally disagree with the notion that groups can form banding together to achieve better living conditions?
Every right to decide with whom IT wants to trade, yes. But the implication or explicit threat of force against others (NATO v. the DPRC on the other side of the planet) is at best, and at worst, imperial hubris.
Also you presuppose that a “rules based world order” a) exists, b) functions fairly and impartially if it exists in flawed format, and c) is a Platonic ideal we should strive towards.
Make a positive case for it (and not a “but look at the alternative!”) before you laud it.
No there is absolutely no threat of use of force – not against China nor against Russia not even against DPRC.
Yes
a) because it does exist and has actually been observed across the planet in more than 90 percent of cases – you can
make the argument that Israel has violated it.
b) because it does not need to function fairly and impartially – like the justice system in almost all countries what is important is not that it is flawless but that it is so flawless that it discourages the majority of would be offenders.
c) because if we do not aspire towards punishing countries that engages in wars of aggression for territorial conquest then we are guaranteed to get far more such wars – simply because they become a much more ‘profitable’ option.
Does that count as a positive case – I know that c may sound like look at the alternative – but it is what we had before WWII so fairly well documented – and it took a fair bit of time post WWII before the nations of Europe especially came around to respecting that they could not carry on with wars to retain their colonies.
Do you not think we are in a slightly better world – not perfect by any means but better that the past as it was before WWII?
“No there is absolutely no threat of use of force…”
The current head of NATO is speaking at China, telling them what to do or not-do. The head of an aggressive MILITARY ALLIANCE. Not the president of the EU, or WEF, WWF, or WWE. The guy aiming NATO’s guns.
“b) because it does not need to function fairly and impartially – like the justice system in almost all countries what is important is not that it is flawless but that it is so flawless that it discourages the majority of would be offenders”
I’ll address this statement because it’s the most glaring – and also because it’s another “yabbit” you’ve made (“yeah (you’re correct) but…”), the other notable being in a thread with Wars Russell.
You advocate a “rules based world order” then state it “…does not need to function fairly and impartially…” I REALLY don’t get you, M64 – are you just typing the first idea you think of, without ANY consideration of ramifications, logical consistency, or rational consideration ?
“Hey, I’ve got a great idea for the ideal health-care system for our country, but it doesn’t provide any medical care or really even concern itself with peoples’ health.”
As to :
“Do you not think we are in a slightly better world – not perfect by any means but better that the past as it was before WWII?”
Yes, by all metrics, we are in a better world than 10, 100, 1000 years ago. However, with the development of technology (weapons, AI) and mass communication (the Internet, rampant state spying) we are also at far greater risk of losing our society, civilization, liberties, lives, and planet to live on, than EVER before.
The guy who has no power whatsoever to point NATO guns – you seem to believe that Stoltenberg is some sort of dictator – he is not he is the secretary general with no power to decide to start any military action.
No I put what the rules based order is into words – like any justice system it is not perfect – if you want to delay all improvements waiting for perfect you would still live in the colonial period where the stronger countries would just annex/occupy the weaker ones – is that really what you want?
The parallel would be a system like the Danish one providing healthcare within our fiscal limits for all but with limits on newest treatments and very expensive treatments.
I’d say that we are in a better world than we were just about 50 years ago – or right about the time the European countries finally gave up on maintaining by far the most of their colonial territories, but you appear to want to go back to the times before we had finally agreed upon the idea that rights we granted other ‘civilized’ countries also applied to former colonies.
When you say NATO, you mean the US.
US Secretary of State Blinken in China with a bagful of demands and threats
A spokesperson for the Chinese embassy in Washington told the Wall Street Journal (WSJ): “China’s right to conduct normal trade and economic exchanges with Russia and other countries in the world on the basis of equality and mutual benefit should not be interfered with or disrupted. The United States should immediately stop imposing unilateral sanctions on Chinese companies and individuals.”
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2024/04/25/fgdm-a25.html
How bloody arrogant is the US?! Why not cut off any dealings with Israel and save some Palestinian lives, you effing hypocrites!
They expect China to punish Russia all the way out of modernity.
Semiconductors in everyday life
For example, temperature sensors used in air conditioners are made with semiconductors. Rice cookers cook rice perfectly because semiconductors control the temperature precisely. CPUs that operate personal computers are also made with semiconductors. Many digital consumer products in everyday life such as mobile phones / smartphones, digital cameras, televisions, washing machines, refrigerators and LED bulbs also use semiconductors. In addition to consumer electronics, semiconductors play a central role in the operation of bank ATMs, trains, the internet, communications and other parts of social infrastructure, such as the medical network used for the care of elderly, among other things. Furthermore, efficient logistics systems help save energy and promote the preservation of the global environment. The number of car-mounted semiconductor devices has been increasing steadily. There are many types of car-mounted semiconductors. Particularly for future ADAS (Advanced Driver Assistance Systems), more semiconductors are expected to be used.
https://www.hitachi-hightech.com/global/en/knowledge/semiconductor/room/about/life.html
“Jens Stoltenberg accused China of ‘fueling’ the war in Ukraine”
This is what is known as the pot calling the kettle black.
America alone has given Ukraine over $200 Billion since 2014 alone!
Add in the $ Billions from Europe and a few other Asian / Pacific countries like Korea, Japan, and Australia and you are talking serious money!
Yeah and were has it all gone ? .
Zelesnsky purchased two yachts for $100,000 plus a new mansion in Egypt this past November.
HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!
If the threats, sanctions and demands are at this level while China and Russia are close, imagine if China drops Russia! They will wake up every single day listening to Blinken demands.
The first step is to stop China’s trade relationship, then the West will demand that China send weapons to Ukraine. Next thing, they will become the Asian vassal’s joining Japan and S Korea.
No the west has very little interest in having the Chinese sending weapons to Ukraine – that would be weapons the west would prefer to produce.
How ’bout this – the DPRC puts NATO on the spot, and publicly requests to be Asia’s first full NATO member.
The “weapon” being threatened here is access to western markets. The “victim” should this weapon be used will not be only China , but also the average citizen of the West. Nasically Stoltenberg is using the economic well-being of US citizens as a bargaining chip . He can do so because he was the dutifully and unanimously elected leader of the United States. Oh wait…
Stoltenberg does not have the power to implement the poorly hidden threat – you are correct that according to trade theory it is the final customers that will suffer (i.e. all citizens of the west as well as China).
But repatriating production will create more jobs so…
But as this is a development which we are facing either way, i.e. both if the sanctions are applied or if they are not and Russia/China are successful in ending the rules based world order we have had since about WWII.
“…rules based world order…”
Ahh yes, the one you just told me “…does not need to function fairly and impartially.”
The only “rules based world order” we have had since WW2, is one dominated by American imperial aims. It props up the U.N. and U.N.S.C. when they are useful, scoffs at them when not. Champions its own vetoes and decrys the same uses by the Soviets/Russian federation, and DPRC.
Shields its useful idiots (aka vassal states, friends, “allies”) when convenient, pretends to be blameless when they themselves break the “rules” of the “world”, projects their own failings onto others.
No, M64, if the “rules based world order” is coming undone, it’s because the rising powers (RF, DPRC, BRICS & Global South, Africa) have had enough of a hegemonic USA fixing the game to its own ends.
“America ? No thanks.” could be the next great global slogan for trade, financial dealings (particularly in $$US), and other partnerships.
Well that rules based order has prevented the US (,UK and France) from annexing territory – are you sure you want them to be allowed to annex territory?
You think hard about that – the rules worked because they applied to all even including the US – no wars of territorial conquest!
How will you make China reduce Trade with Russia? They will just say no, we will trade with them as much as we want.
They will apply more sanctions to trade with China – the west is by far the largest Chinese customer. So if the Chinese are forced to choose that is a Choice they will not like.
America and it`s NATO LACKEYS have lost their proxy war with Russia and now are lashing out soon the blame game will begin no doubt accusing China and anyone who supports Russia for them losing the war , Russia has more friends than America or it`s NATO LACKEYS.
I thought they had already lost it in early March 2022.
The Ukrainians were never going to “win” is what was being said at the time. And this was even before the US send Boris to prohibit Ukraine from ending the war prematurely to US’ and UK’s, and as we found out later, Germany’s and France’s taste.
Of course that proposition was always preposterous. But like all US wars, there isn’t supposed to ever at any stage be a clear objective about what the war is supposed to achieve, their puppet regimes also incorporate this as of yet unfathomed wisdom, and so to this day it never became clear what that winning is supposed to entail, if it was Austin’s aim to weaken Russia, militarily, destroy their economy with sanctions warfare in a bid to overthrow the Russian government and install a puppet regime favorable to a system of cooperative oligarchs, or just to conquer back Crimea and ethnically cleanse Eastern and Southern Ukraine of anything or anyone that smacks of Russian heritage, or perhaps some combination of this.
There are signs, sparsely distributed in the media, but there nevertheless, that the US goals of the war have grown to be much more modest than any of those grandiose visions. The goal now is to postpone the unconditional surrender of Ukraine until slightly after November this year.
Given that it was started by Russia invading the objective has been clear from the start i.e. make the Russians regret and end all occupation of Ukrainian territory.
You can hear that in pretty much all reporting, so just how you missed is not clear.
End Russian occupation pretty clear.
There is no program of ethnic cleansing from the Ukrainian side – Zelenskyy is an ethnic Russian – there is a Russian program of ethnic cleansing – maybe you just got confused or are you just projecting?
The Russian economy is being weakened.
Why is it that you think the US could without boots on the ground get the Ukrainians to fight while after 20 years in Afghanistan they were powerless – your ‘theories’ fail even simple tests.
Well no, the Americans started this war. They laid the groundwork for it during the last administrations, both Democratic and Republican from roughly 2008 onward. And they refused to prevent it at every opportunity until the very last moments at the eve of the actual invasion. And then for good measure undermined a peaceful solution to quickly end the war. They have left Russia no choice, made it clear to them that accomodation is pointless. You, know the Chamberlain talking point applied to the actual aggressor. That’s the point: it is a US proxy war. They wanted it. They got it. They lost it.
Of course the Ukrainians, especially Western-Ukrainians react with nationalistic fervor against the Russian invasion. Like the Russians react with nationalistic fervor against threats against their homeland. Or orchestrated terrorist attacks. As did the Americans all of the sudden overcame internal divisions one september morning.
But the US war aims by whatever measure they choose now (not yours, theirs) are failing (probably even if that is just postponing their surrender until after November), Russia has been strengthened, their economy is going well, projected by the IMF to be growing 3,2% this year. They’re going better than the US and much, much, much better than Europe.
What will happen now, thanks to the US and cheered on by people like yourself, is that Ukraine is going to be a landlocked rump state that is going to function as a demilitarized buffer zone between Russian and European borders. Our puppets in Kiev will have fled or be taken prisoner or are dead.
At this point they will be dropped in the bin of forgetfulness with the other failed US wars and the US will move on with more pressing matters.
And we are clearly through the looking glass. You could argue that the US provoked the war, but not that they started it. Not in 2008 nor in 2014 and least of all in 2022.
If you do not understand economics – sure – otherwise not so much – the growth you see is fueled by using the sovereign wealth fund and other government funds – not by growing exports or increased private domestic consumption.
Two years more of this kind of growth and Russia will have wasted all of its saved up capital.
That might be the case should the Ukrainians decide or be forced to agree to peace terms.
It is however exceedingly unlikely that Putin will be happy with that, as the sanctions will continue to erode the Russian economy.
Moreover Sweden and Finland having joined NATO would effectively mean that Russia had fought a war to lower its security position.
No just about all that can would flee Ukraine in this outcome – as they would have e legit reason to flee and thus ‘free’ entry to EU.
When e.g. Lithuania joined EU and had Freedom of movement its population went from 3.7 million in 1992 to about 2.7 million by now – so more than 1/4 people left and they did not face persecution.
Ukrainians with much worse economic prospects and a acknowledged refugee status would be likely dwarf the Lithuanian migration.
Except that is not going to happen as this is actually a Russian war to end the US rules based world order – so the sanctions will not be lifted, the trade will not resume and the Russian economy will be made to suffer.
If the US does not do this they will have demonstrated to Xi that all he needs is a bit of stamina to weather the storm when he takes Taiwan.
Provocation to a point of leaving no other option is starting a war. Russia has shown extreme restraint and patience for years. All their objections and warnings have been ignored, their security interests have been ignored. It was absolutely clear to them that they would not be left with any other option than to remove the threat. And even then they attempted to do it in as short and minimally violent way as possible. The US however made it clear, per Boris, that they insisted on war. So they got their way, with what you might call an obliterating succes ensuing.
Now, I’ll take your word for it that the IMF don’t understand economics. I am hearing a lot of people who do understand economics enlighten me on this wonderfully counterintuivite subject. They tell me growth is bad, to worry about debt is stupid, inflation is good and printing money increases wealth. I am not yet entirely convinced lets say.
And sure, the US plans to save their rules based world will come together nicely. Wonderful things are being obscured by what just looks like a total catastrophe.
Hope springs eternal I guess.
No it is not – there were no US troops poised on the Russian borders necessitating a first strike – there were only weak Ukrainian forces proving any claim that war was forced upon the Russians a lie.
Yes because their demands were not compatible with respecting the sovereignty of the nations in eastern Europe – and tell us why Russia’s security concerns trump those of the Baltic countries, Poland or Ukraine. Is it somehow that you think Russian lives are more important???
There was never a credible threat of any western or Ukrainian invasion – so no actual threat.
The Ukrainians had already changed the prospective text of the agreement – to such an extend that it was rejected by Moscow.
No the IMF is correct in their projections of Russian growth – you are wrong in your interpretation of that growth as a successful economy – the Ukrainian economy is set for even bigger growth – it is not a sign of health!
Any growth that is not fueled by either export growth or increase in private domestic consumption is problematic – especially when the growth is down to buying military equipment with no hope of exporting it.
They and the rest of the west (plus most weak countries) have few workable alternatives – it does not look very good presently but then it will potentially take decades to really work.
You’re so full of crap, it’s breathtaking. Up is down, black is white, good is evil…
You can peddle your bullshit all day, but all you do is take up space.
I hope you are at least as self aware that you recognize this projection for what it is…
It’s a challenge to engage with him, but, if you do, you may find he inadvertently agrees with what you’re saying as if he didn’t just do exactly that.
It’s an intellectual approach that straddles a curious line between “funny” and “baffling”.
Russia has more friends?
🤣
So what you accuse china of doing with russia is virtually the same as you do with israel?
I think they are accusing China of doing considerably less for Russia than the US is doing for Israel – would you not agree?
Clown Anthony Blinken threatens China with sanctions. Too little too late, China is already moving on without America.
China Dumps $74,000,000,000 in US Treasuries in One Year As Two BRICS Nations Say They’ve Abandoned Dollar in Mutual Trade
https://dailyhodl.com/2024/04/26/china-dumps-74000000000-in-us-treasuries-in-one-year-as-two-brics-nations-say-theyve-abandoned-dollar-in-mutual-trade/amp/
China being polite is having a self delusion on this block head lap dog. The self proclaimed importance of the West cannot be understated.
Don’t be surprised when one day NATO is taking their marching orders from Beijing.
That’s a funny idea. The rest of us know that Russia gets all its semiconductors and microchips from the washing machines and microwave ovens left behind by retreating Ukrainian forces.
Indeed – and Taiwan is sooooo important to the USA for what technological product(s) again, Jens-y From The Block ?
…And China says US must cut trade with EU to have good relations with East…!
Here in the US, a psychiatric hold may be issued when someone is considered to be a danger to himself or others.
Doesn’t Jens Stoltenberg fit that criteria?
1800: British merchants trades opium illegally from India to China.
1839-1842: First Opium War between China and Britain.
1856-1860: Second Opium War ends with more trading rights for Britain.
1900: Western ideas spread in China. Chinese opposed Western influence. Boxer Rebellion broke out. British, French, German, Austrian, Italian and USA at war in China.