Secretary of State Antony Blinken said Wednesday that Ukraine needs to send younger people to fight Russian forces as the US is pressuring Ukraine to start conscripting teenagers for combat.
Ukraine’s current minimum conscription age is 25, and the US wants it lowered to 18. Ukrainians ages 18 to 25 can join the military to fight but cannot be forced into combat under the latest mobilization law.
“These are very hard decisions, and I fully both understand that and respect that,” Blinken told Reuters in an interview with Reuters at NATO headquarters in Brussels. “But for example, getting younger people into the fight, we think, many of us think, is necessary. Right now, 18 to 25-year-olds are not in the fight.”
NATO Secretary-General Mark Rutte echoed Blinken’s comments. “We have to make sure, obviously, also that enough people are available within Ukraine,” he said. “We need probably more people to move to the front line.”
The call from Blinken comes as it’s clear there’s no path to a Ukrainian military victory, but the Biden administration is doing everything it can to escalate the proxy war before President-elect Donald Trump is inaugurated on January 20. Ukrainians are also ready for an end to the war, as a recent Gallup poll found that the majority of Ukrainians, 52%, want peace talks with Russia to end the conflict.
Earlier this year, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky signed a mobilization law that lowered the age of conscription from 27 to 25, but he has so far resisted calls from the US to lower it further. Serhiy Leshchenko, an aide to Zelensky, said in October that Ukraine has been under pressure from American politicians, both Republicans and Democrats, to recruit 18-year-olds.
Lord Bebow @MyLordBebo
• In Odessa, a military recruiter and a civilian sprayed each other with pepper spray
https://x.com/MyLordBebo/status/1863926536425861310
Touché ole! ED!!!
Ukraine still has a lot of "cannon fodder" to use up then, going with the "fighting to the last Ukrainian" ideal. Barring the alleged-to-be forced cease fire by the incoming administration.
"Ukraine still has a lot of 'cannon fodder' to use up."
Well…
…in light of continuing 'facts on the ground' – not only the horrendous casualty rate, but the accelerating Russian 'military drive' west…
…and in light of the 'conscription creep' west…
…it is not clear to me that the Ukrainian government in fact can – politically – sustain its 'cannon fodder' supply.
My thinking: it's not that, numerically, the cannon fodder isn't there…but that there seems to be a shift in the political willingness of Ukrainians to lay themselves…or husbands and sons…on the 'to the last Ukrainian' altar.
And then there are other 'internal' considerations: as a poster noted recently, un-re-elected Zelensky already polls as highly unpopular…
Oh Abramawiczek, what polls do you speak of?
"Abramawiczek"? If you want to know if I'm native Polish, all you have to do is ask.
Are you?
Scroll back my posts far enough and you'll find out, freakin' lazebag.
Zamknąć się
Polska zyskała chwałę NATO
Well are you Pole?
Actually, numerically, there are rather few Ukrainians in the 18-25 year old category. Here's a graphic of the age distribution as a population pyramid:
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b2e824e5dbe27d0e9ca3db466d4692d24751ca5421dd18b8e85b429aeb5333e4.png (source: https://www.populationpyramid.net/ukraine/ )
As you can see, 20-24 year-olds make up only 2.4% of the male population. There is no way that drafting those people will fill the gap in Ukraine's military. And those young people are the seed corn if Ukraine has any hope to repopulate after the end of this war. And you just don't grind the seed corn if you want to survive another year.
The only rational inference I can make is that Antony Blinken has a blind hatred for Ukraine and wants to see it wiped off the planet.
"young people are the seed corn if Ukraine has any hope to repopulate…after this war. And you just don't grind the seed corn if you want to survive another year."
A defeatist view of Ukraine's fighting spirit:
Surely enough 15-18-yr-old boys will have "seeded" female Ukrainian teens – before conscription and death – to carry forward the glorious, eternal Ukrainian life cycle.
Your meaning is unclear. Perhaps you forgot to include "/s" at the end.
"Yr meaning is unclear."
rats, the jonathan swift trophy eludes me again
Damm the seed corn. Fight to the last man.
"Fight to the last man."
Why not to the last child?
Blinken: "You must send younger people to their deaths in support of the Empire!"
The ZIONIST Empire. He is seriously the head of the snake. Anyone who hasn’t looked into his familial history needs to.
“We need probably more people to move to the front line.” Well no, the problem precisely is that the Ukrainians don't have more people to feed the meatgrinder, so I'll fix the comment Rutte should have made if he were even remotely truthful: "We need probably younger people to move to the front line." And if he were not completely dishonest he should have also inserted the rather important word "unprepared" after "move".
”If I had a hammer! I’d hammer in the morning! I’d hammer in the evening! All over this land! I’d hammer out danger! I’d hammer out warning! I’d hammer out the love between my brothers and my sisters! All over this land!!!”
Blinken should send his own kids.
Blinken should go himself. In the interests of decorum, I won't say where Blinken should go.
"Blinken should send his own kids….should go himself. In the interests of decorum."
In the interest of setting a good example – to Ukraine, and to his two toddlers – Blinken should sacrifice himself to the Ukrainian cause…
…just as he decrees other Ukrainians with toddlers must sacrifice themselves.
“These are…hard decisions" sez Blinken, but "necessary"!
What a wonderful idea! In fact, why don’t all the pro-war idiots, who never get tired of being lied to, send their kids as well. They can send their kids, their treasure, and themselves. How’s that? Because for me and mine, we are well past tired of the endless wars and the Orwellian bullshit.
Well as we speak the bloodshed and "Orwellian bullshit" is continuing. Israel and the US are celebrating the overthrow of Assad adn declaring victory in the Middle East and Trump is boasting that he will have peace in the Ukraine or Putin will see the consequences .
Israel feel emboldened now and American Christians see a victory in the Middle east and Jesus returning there soon.
Isn't that cute. The Ivy League Glo0balist sycophant wants to play war.
He never served in the military or was educated by a military school like West Point.
I have a great idea, Tony, why don't you go?
Your rendition of 'Hoochie Coochie Man' will drive them back to Moscow, I'm sure.
After all, Blinkens grandpa and grandma come from Kiev. The family was named Blenchen back then. In the US, first they changed it to Blinkin, which a generation later became Blinken.
Reminds me of playing Starcraft and you send in a bunch of zerglings against your opponent's fully upgraded siege tanks guarded by bunkers.
Ponder it: a huge and powerful country, from behind the safety of ocean moats and the world's most expensive and well-supplied military, is advising a poor and losing nation in a dog fight to volunteer more of its human potential so that the powerful can make even more obscene amounts of money and amass even more unaccountable power.
Especially after all the ongoing comments like “great investment none of our people have to die” and also “it’s about the money”.
How inspiring to risk your life.
Hey! We always said that we would fight this war to the last Ukrainian, and now we find out that they are holding out on us.
Outrageous right? How dare they try to keep kids alive.
For the Zionist Empire
First of all, none of this makes sense. The US used to draft 18-year-olds just to fight in Vietnam. How the hell is it that Ukraine, which is actively fighting a war, has not ALREADY been drafting 18 and above?
This is probably why my calculations as to when Ukraine would run out of manpower that I made in fall, 2023, turned out to be more or less incorrect. I assumed Ukraine was already drafting down to that age.
I also assumed that since Ukraine were physically seizing and "recruiting" men into the military that they were already in such dire straits that they had to be drafting 18-year-olds.
This is completely ridiculous. This is probably why the nonsense about Ukraine raising "another million man army" has been floated around. Presumably – if in fact Ukraine has not been drafting anyone under 25 – there is a pool of men which might well reach that number.
That's assuming that this whole business isn't complete propaganda bullshit, like everything else.
Not that it matters – all reports are that the people currently being drafted don't even know how to operate a military rifle and once they're at the front they immediately either defect to the Russians or desert. I heard a figure of 200,000 desertions at this point.
Someone estimated a total of 350,000 Ukrainians left in the army at this point, up against 700,000 Russians.
In any event, the Ukraine war is the least of my interests. That is a done deal. The only question remaining is whether Putin will be smart enough to finish it off and take all of it, or whether he will be stupid enough to go for some "negotiated deal."
Even Colonel Wilkerson doesn't get it. He said on Nima's show yesterday that Putin wouldn't take all of Ukraine "because China wouldn't approve." I call bullshit on that idea. But who knows? Putin has been stupid before when he tried in March-April, 2022, to get what amounted to "Minsk III".
Look at the current demographic tree of Ukraine. What do you imagine will happen with Ukraine in the future when you take out even a pretty small portion of that 18-25 group? It doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to me why even the Zelensky regime has been so averse to send them off to their deaths or crippled futures. It probably still takes a lot of US pressure to 'convince' Zelensky of the wisdom to their national suicide.
The war is a done deal, Russia won. But how the endgame is going to look like I have really no idea. All options to me seem the stuff of nightmares going forward, nobody on either side wants West Ukraine. They are nothing but a liability and a bottomless money pit and for Russia an insurance of forever trouble on top. That is why this war should have never been fought in the first place. But that is a done deal, the West, the Biden administration insisted.
Survival instinct and also legacy laws from when Ukraine was a social-democracy under Yanukovich. IF Ukraine sends its youth to the front, there won't be any Ukraine when the war is over. Notice also that the young ones are those more brainwashed by the neonazi regime: the older ones still remember better times, the young ones do not.
"a recent…poll found…the majority of Ukrainians, 52%, want peace talks with Russia to end the conflict."
1/ And – as noted in my "Poll: Majority of Ukrainians Want Peace Talks To End War" article post – 'this shows the direction of Ukrainian thinking'…
2/…pro-peace-talk 'thinking' that – I predict – will increase in reaction to the US drive to get Ukraine to lower its mandated conscript age. ie – watch for draft evasion and 'pro-peace' numbers to go up in immediate reaction.
3/ Little reminder here: west Ukraine cities like Lviv are not just the most 'nationalist,' US-western-aligned, pro-war, anti-peace-talk parts of Ukraine;
they are also the ones farthest from the fight, and that experience the lowest conscription rates.
But when concription laws change? And suddenly those 'safe' western sons' and daughters' lives are on the line? Watch what happens to war fever:
"In Lviv, a city in the West that has avoided serious shelling, wives and mothers …have protested, terrified about their husbands’ and sons’ deployment into combat in the East. To assuage concerns, a commander…met with about 200 women in a concert hall but the conversation devolved into screaming and crying, local media reported." https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/01/world/europe/ukraine-russia-losses-east.html
don't take this willingness for peace talks out of context
When Ukrainains say they want peace, they also want to join NATO. Not just be a neutral state. Multiple Ukrainians have said if there is to be peace it involves ukraine joining NATO/OTAN
That is the way to ensure “peace” is much more of a distant dream.
A lot of Russian speaking Ukrainians want to join Russia. Perhaps the population should decide instead of meddling outside powers.
Region by region…
1. Do you want to rejoin Russia?
2. Be a small independent country?
3. Remain part of Ukraine?
4. Something else? Write it in.
"be a small independent country.." you really sell off Ukies as dumb
"When Ukrainains say they want peace, they also want to join NATO."
1/ "Want" is irrelevant – because half as many as at start of war say they expect it; and, therefore, they can be predicted to accept a settlement without it…
…a realism paralleling the spike – over the same time period – of Ukrainians who, no doubt, "want" a peace with land…but will accept it – now – even with land loss.
"Ukrainians' belief that the Eastern European country will never join NATO has almost doubled since the war began."
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ukrainians-lose-hope-in-nato/ar-AA1uw0vL?ocid=BingNewsSerp
2/ This is easy to look up. Christ – 'sides not giving a crap about the avoidable suffering of Ukraine, you are one pitiful lazebag.
Ok Mr. Abramawiczek, have you ever thought that its due to Russia preventing Ukraine from Joining NATO or a genuine non-liking of the alliance?
Think, Abramawićek, think
A large majority of Ukrainians were always against joining NATO!
Only in December 2021, a small majority of 54% out of a response of 53% was in favor of joining NATO, and that was excluding people in LPR and DPR, otherwise a majority would still have been against!
Only after the escalation in the course of 2022 did this change in Western Ukraine under war conditions.
Sources
Volodymyr Ishchenko – Ukrainians are far from unified on NATO. Let them decide for themselves
Bharat Dogra – When NATO admitted that less than 20% people of Ukraine want its membership
IRI – IRI Ukraine poll shows support for EU/NATO membership
Ted Snider – NATO when you don’t want it; no NATO when you do
I watched a bit of an interview with Jeffrey Sachs. I didn’t finish because he gets redundant. But the comments under the stream were interesting. People checking in from all over Europe and Turkey saying they don’t want to be part of the EU or NATO. Of course it’s anecdotal, but surprising still.
No, Russia pushed Ukraine ot the west by invading them
1. As I wrote, a large majority of Ukrainians were always against joining NATO, etc.
You don't refute that, you ignore it and try to overshout it – in vain.
Further,
2. After the violent coup of jan-feb 2014 a pro-west government – including the nationalists – seized power. In East and South Ukraine protests arose against that. That government began severing relations between Ukraine and Russia – which is also a long time geopolitical strategy of the US regime.
3. The russian armed forces began their military operation against the ukrainian armed forces to end offensive aggressions by ukrainian nationalists and western politicians, including NATO.
The coup was homegrown
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f078d0d517b0dd3292da0bc81ddca45612bf246f6324ed712ee5676d056f4df2.jpg
Well, Političar, many Europeans agree with Nuland. Which might be taken as a bad sign.
As for me, I am in favour of a European Union, but against this EU, so I face a dilemma.
No
Lol No… not so much
I've taken the liberty to reply to Krzysztóf.
I’ve taken the liberty to block this reincarnation.
funny – almost never do it, but reached that point last night too – and after just days. a bout of national dick-waving – so outright asinine it sounded alcohol-fueled – was the last straw.
best of luck – my patience has run out w/him
You shouldn't speak for Ukrainians unless you're a Ukrainian. Careful now, you might give yourself away.
Who do you keep referring to?
You've already denied it so you should know who I'm talking about. You're slipping.
Yeah I am me I don’t know who else I would be…
With frown and tilted head and sugar voice Blinken would sacrifice his own mother, daughters, and toddlers for global imperialism, and say "These are very tough decisions. I know that."
Airdrop the SOB.
Ukrainian sociologist Ishchenko provides some thoughtful insights on this:
https://lefteast.org/volodymyr-ishchenko-in-case-of-disintegrating-state-institutions-and-a-failing-economy-ukrainian-nationalists-will-have-strong-opportunities-to-establish-their-power/
Thank you for this link.
Leaks expose secret British military cell plotting to ‘keep Ukraine fighting’
Leaked files show top UK military figures conspired to carry out the Kerch bridge bombing, covertly train “Gladio”-style stay-behind forces in Ukraine, and groom the British public for a drop in living standards caused by the proxy war against Russia.
https://thegrayzone.com/2024/11/16/uk-plot-keep-ukraine-fighting/
Gladio=Nazis and mafia
If it is true that only 52% of Ukrainians want peace, and providing NATO gives them enough money, weapons and a bit more of military specialists and mercenaries, the war would last, at least, one year longer. No one in Kremlin is talking about the mobilization. Volunteers are coming, but unlike in Ukrainian army, they serve their contract and then they are free to go home. It looks, most of them are doing exactly that. So, number of Russian militaries engaged in Ukrainian war is not going to increase in foreseeable future. Besides, Putin uses this war for reformation of Russian economy, and what is even more important, he is reforming the political elite, promoting the veterans of this war into state bureaucracy and getting rid of the state elite inherited from Yeltsin times.
We don't know what Ukrainians want (also: define "Ukrainian", do the 25% in Donbass count?): it's not like the Ukrainian Regime is democratic and transparent and allows for free speech.
If Poland receives the call for help, the Polish Armed Forces will answer with a punishing and devastating blow to the enemy to paralyse and cripple their fighting aptitude
Chława Polska!
Niech zyje Polska!
The Polish Armed Forces will be made a priority target, and most will come home in a body bag.
We would whip the Russians
Knock yourself out.
you didnt say im wrong
You are wrong.
I am not
Our army is stroger than anything Russia could wimpishly toss at us
Put up or shut up.
Nah
Putin shits his pants every night thinking about "those weak polacks."
Poland is not stupid enough to go up against the Russians. One of their officials, I forget which one, I think Sikorsky, admitted that to Vovan and Lexus.
Sikorsky is a douche and he knows it
We are smart enough to go against Russia
I'll bet you are. It's your funeral.
Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished.
Hopefully smarter than the Ukrainians that stupidly believed that the USUK Empire actually cared for Slavic interests in Europe rather than exploiting them in order to gain another proxy state they can control.
There should be no fighting on antiwar.com!
There should be no fighting period. Russia never wanted to fight, but NATO wouldn't stop threatening them, using Ukraine as their weapon. Shame on NATO, and especially on the United States government.
Heh
Russia never wanted to fight
Was this site always pro Russia or did a point exist where it was genuinly anti war?
Have you stopped beating your wife? Was there a past point when you weren’t doing so?
I would NEVER do such a thing!
Also why do people keep saying I am somebody else?
Because you're so fucking obvious.
Yeah see statements like that are not helpful.
I have no idea anymore… you've gone mad
You keep saying you have no idea after you specifically denied the allegations.
I can only reply for myself, not for others, let alone for 'this site'. And I should be careful in calling myself 'genuine' – maybe that's something one should not say about oneself.
I am against war. It goes against all my values. Not only the value of peace, but also the values of nature, life, love and sympathy, reason and truth, happiness, freedom and other values.
(As for nature, war machines are enormous emitters of greenhouse gasses).
The main causes of the war in Ukraine are offensive aggressions by ukrainian nationalists and by western politicians et al. Those aggressions had to end.
I support Russia in the goal of ending them.
As for the means – the military operation starting feb 2022 – that is a much more difficult question. You can look at it with five different pairs of eyes (what I call 'the first eyes', the eyes of Realpolitik, military eyes, the eyes of international law and ethical eyes).
With much reluctance I say 'yes' to the military operation, and to Russia bringing it to a good end.
And I haven't read Scott Hortons Provoked yet.
(Right now I'm reading A. B. Abrams Atrocity fabrication and its consequences and Alfred de Zayas The human rights industry. And those two books – like many others – have the opposite effect of inducing a pro-western-politicians attitude).
so – respectfully – you think the only way to peace is to kill tens of thousands of civillians and kill off a whole male population?
About civilian casualties:
I don't know the number. It is said that it is lower than in other wars.
An article appeared on Antiwar.com somewhere in the past five months, explaining that casualties and damage in Ukraine are relatively low compared to other wars.
(I can't find that article, though I searched for it. If anybody remembers that article and can find it, I'd be obliged. Thomas maybe?)
Of course the number of dead being relatively low doesn´t make it good.
About killing the whole male population: Blinken says Ukraine must send younger people into war .
More importantly, Russia and Ukraine were negotiating a cease fire in march-april 2022. Most casualties and damage might have been prevented. UK Bojo & the US regime torpedoed the negotiations. "Let's just fight", said UK Bojo. But he didn't mean "us", he meant Ukrainians.
Not even fighting back, Donna? That doesn't seem fair.
Apostrophes are your friend. Language, apparently, is not, though.
Upvoting yourself – in your case – has masturbatory overtones.
Apostrophes are your friend. Language, apparently, is not, though.
Upvoting yourself – in your case – has masturbatory overtones.
I remember there was a fellow named Christian Vila who used to say the same thing, but from the Ukrainian perspective. I wonder if he's still denying the fact that Russia is rapidly gaining momentum along the eastern front or that the Kursk incursion was a strategic failure?
The sad thing was that he refuted the events of 2014 that led to the current conflict and seemed oblivious to the history, or rather, the concept of 'Ukraine' in that Ukraine did not have any defined territory other than Cossacks, Ruthenians, Russians, etc. that lived within the respective Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Habsburg and Russian Empires.
Ukrajina (exactly like Krajina in former Yugoslavia) literally means the frontier/border region, etc.
Ukrajina will still exist, but as a very much smaller 'rump state' to the west & adjacent to Poland. "Polska Wschodnia" may be an appropriate name after the war is finally over.
I wonder if they are one and the same.
One disappears and the other shows up, possibly reincarnated from a “new perspective”. But same ol’.
I'm quite certain KL = CV
Yeah, me too.
Who is CV?
Ukrainians are people though
And even though I am not Ukrainian, our countries are similar
We have both been opressed for centuries and both have doubted our countryhood throughut history
Russians are descendant of Ukrainians from the Kyivan Rus’ and Ukraine never doubted Russias existence
It is cruel to claim a people or country are just a “borderland.” The name Krajina was given by idiotic Russian revanchists who gave no shit for Ukrainians or anyone else under their fat thumb
Interesting story, but I disagree based on historical fact.
The one thing I do agree on is you 'doubting your countryhood'.
You should doubt it, your leadership and especially the alliances your leadership chooses.
I do not doubt NATO
NATO is amazing
Russians are not descendants of Ukrainians at all. Kievan Rus broke up in several of its former principalities. You seem to repeat nationalist propaganda.
The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth has done its share of oppression, e. g. in the form of serfdom and polonization, in the region that is now Ukraine, especially west of the Dnjepr. An uprising in the 17th century was against the PLC.
Also there is Austria-Hungary in the west.
Russophobia or hatred of Russia and Russians is nationalist fake, it is constructed, as part of a constructed 'ukrainian identity'.
Ukrainians hate Russians so much that they slaughtered 100.000 Poles! Yes, convincing.
Why wouldn’t Ukrainians and us poles hate Russia?
What good have they done for us?
“Russia” is not a unitary “they.”
It’s a large land mass with a population of nearly 150 million people who hold various opinions and take various actions.
Yes, the regime is just as evil as the gang that claims to rule you or the gang that claims to rule me.
But the regime isn’t “Russia.” It’s just a parasite ON “Russia.”
Ok then…. Why wouldn’t Ukrainians and us poles hate the Russian régime *in power?* What good has *it* done for us
I’m with you there. I hate all regimes *in power*. And those TRYING to be *in power*. What I don’t hate are their victims (“citizens”).
Nonsense dangerous ultra-nationalist, Little Duda.
How fun it must be to play a nationalist death cultist in two languages, for two cults!
I only speak the Polish and English
and some Dutch
Sell all your belongings and send the proceeds to Zelensky and Zelenskaya… They will put it to good use in Miami
As they said, the USA will fight Russia "to the last Ukrainian".
The corrupt Elite Western/Ukraine cabal will have to kill off as many Ukrainians as possible before too many of the soldiers and citizens realize their infrastructure and resources, including the land they stand on, has been sold off to the highest bidders. Zelensky, a huge traitor to what is left of his people. Biden and many before him, the same corrupt tyrant to his…at least to the ones not obsessively checking on their ill-gotten portfolios. Neoliberalism is a bitch, that comes for us all sooner or later.
1. With all due respect to my Ukrainian friends, the people have been betrayed by Zelensky. Ukraine shares a border with a powerful Russia. In 1991 when Ukraine became a nation state it took a neutral stand. Russia is a historical ongoing reality that the Ukraine should have found a way to deal with other than through arms.
2. I know that nationalism is that putrid hill western liberalism is willing to die on but did you know in addition to sharing borders a) Ukrainians and Russians are not only Slavs but Eastern Slavs, linguistically b) their language is similar and share 60% of the vocabulary c) for those who adhere, both are Eastern Orthodox (while a minority are Catholic).
3. The history of Ukrainians and Russians goes back over a 1000 years. The relationship has evolved over centuries. There have been periods of unity, subjugation, cooperation, and conflict.
4. Although 18-24 year olds is a small percentage of the Ukrainian population it's further indication of the insanity of continuing this war. At the end of the war Germany was sending out 12 year olds to fight. Ukraine is destroying itself. The US and NATO are fighting Russia to the last drop of Ukrainian blood.
4. Since Blinken's children are minors, definitely he should go enlist to fight against Russia.
"The history of Ukrainians and Russians goes back over a 1000 years."
Is the name "Ukrainians" proper for people who lived there 1000 years ago? Since when is there 'a ukrainian people' (properly so named)?
I found and still find that a hard question.
Some Ukrainians consider themselves Scyths.
They are all slavs. Both Russians and Ukrainians trace their origins to Kievan Rus in the 9th century. The adoption of Christianity in the 10th century further solidified the shared culture. After the Mongol invasions they further split with Moscow gaining the upper hand while what is now Ukraine was under the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth for a few centuries. In terms of nationalism the term "Ukrainians" began in the late 18th early 19th centuries by intellectuals wanting to differentiate themselves from Russians and Poles. However, that's my whole point that these groups are much more similar than different given they share borders, language group, religion and shared history going back over a 1000 years.
Ukrainains existed before the 18th century
Ukrainians are not Russians, and they never have been Russians. They are a group which has their own culture and their own language
Thx for your reply too Krzysztóf.
– I would indeed not state that 'Ukrainians are Russians'.
– On the one hand, factors that are constitutive of 'a ukrainian people' began forming in the course of the 17th century (I would say).
– But for the name 'ukrainian people' I refer to Ashraf Nubani.
– On the other hand, a 'ukrainian culture' is rather thin. Ukrainian ethnicity is sometimes described as largely a matter of self-identification: a Ukrainian is someone who considers themselves to be a Ukrainian. Mind the circularity in that.
Ukrainian Culture is not "thin"
The Ukrainian person has existed even before then as the Ukrainian Language has been attested for centures before then
Name some of the cultural differences between Ukrainians and Russians.
language, history, holidays, religion, food, architecture
Language – not so much. It is interesting that in many videos of combat in Ukraine the Ukrainian soldiers under stress speak Russian. When the shit hits the fan you resort to your mother tongue.
History – its history joined at the hip. Its history of siblings.
Religion – its predominantly shared. Orthodox.
Holidays – Nope. No difference.
Food – regional differences based on availability of food, but essentially the same.
Architecture – in the cities no difference. In the older rural villages maybe so, but that is accounted for by the building materials locally available.
The only differences would be in those regions modern day Ukraine encompasses that were under Polish or Austro-Hungarian control where Catholicism reigned. These aren’t really areas of classic Ukraine.
Sorry. Your list fails.
You are invited to try again.
most ukrainians don’t speak native russian thats russian revanchist cope
RUssia and Ukraine have mad vastly different experiences in History
Ukraine uses the UOC, not the ROC
Ukraine and russia each have different delecasies
No different because the Nazis demolished all the cities and Stalin rebuilt them
Let me give an example of how close the languages are. In the Bandarchuk film “They Fought for the Motherland” there is a moderately lengthy conversation between two characters, a soldier and the unit’s cook. The Russian soldier speaks to the cook in Russian. The cook is Ukrainian and speaks to the Russian in Ukrainian. There are no subtitles for the Russian speaking audience when the Ukrainian character speaks. There is no voice-over either, a technique common in Russian films for translating foreign language dialogue. There is no voice-over or subtitles because the Russian audience doesn’t need them, because the two languages are largely understandable to both sides in this scene. I’ve seen TV in Ukraine where a Russian language program was playing accompanied with Ukrainian subtitles. It was pathetically funny because large amounts of the Russian dialogue was exactly replicated in the subtitles.
The remainder of your objections are nonsense.
It’s called being partially intelligable, not the same language. A German friend of mine says he can understand most Dutch words with little difficulty. Notice, he never once claimed that due to this similarity, that Dutch is not a seperate language. Your whole argument is that they are the same thing.
Read my first sentence again: “Let me give you an example of how close the languages are.” That is not a claim of identicality.
So whats your claim then?
Lots of languages are close
My try now, o.k.? An aspect:
Ukrainian nationalists construct a ukrainian ethnicity and identity. It is at least in part constructed, made up, in their quest for nationhood.
And partly, they describe or define 'Ukrainians' by their relation to Russia and Russians. Ukrainians are people who have been and still are oppressed by Russia – and who fear and hate Russians.
All collective identities are constructs.
And few specific characteristics are applicable to every member of a sizable collective.
Agreed. When trying to learn something about ukrainian nationalism, I came across a study on ukrainian genes, Genome diversity in Ukraine.
One person in the research (n = 97) indentified himself as ethnic ukrainian, but had italo-iberian genes.
"Genetics is not a reliable determinant of ethnicity but can be used to evaluate individual contributions of ancestry.” (p.7)
Ukrainian nationalist identity is a construct. It’s artificial. It boils down to: hate Russia. Nothing positive or life enhancing about it.
Its a shame thats how you represent the anti war movement
Neither you nor the current Ukrainian nationalist ethos is antiwar.
Its peculiar that you, who represent yourself as a Pole, embraces a nationalism that had no problems murdering tens of thousands of Poles in Volyn and hasn’t apologized or repudiated the crime.
I'm guessing he really isn't a Pole. Just a wild guess on my part mind you but he keeps defending Ukraine as if he might be, wait for it, a Ukrainian.
I think you are correct.
Of course they existed before the 18th century. I said over a 1000 years. They have common origins with Russians.
I am not arguing that. The word "Ukraine" appeared in the 12th century as a geographic term meaning "borderland" or "frontier," in Kievan Rus. A distinguishing identity continued to form in the Cossack Era (16th–18th Century). They wanted to differentiate themselves from Catholic Poles and Orthodox Russians.
What I am saying is that nationalism balkanized people over identity as opposed to principles and codes of ethics and morality.
Ok, so Ukrainians are different from Russians. Does that mean they are better than them? Or Poles? Or non Slavs? or other Europeans?
Seeing the world through nationalism is poison. We judge events and situation based on principles of fairness, morality, etc.
Krzysztóf: "Ukrainains existed before the 18th century."
Ashraf Nubani: "Of course they existed before the 18th century. I said over a 1000 years."
Wait a minute.
People lived in that region for longer than 1000 years. I would call them Slavs.
But what are characteristics of those people that distinguish them as 'ukrainian people'?
The only characteristic I can think of at that time – 1000 years ago – is 'living in a territory for which the name 'the Ukraine' came in use'.
Did the people living there identify themselves as 'the ukrainian people'?
Thanks for your reply. That's the description of history I follow too.
1. ukrainian is more similar to Belarusian than Russian. Nobody is calling Belarusians little ukrainians
2. Dutch shares 75% of its vocabulary with German. Nobody is calling Dutch people Germans, thadt be stupid
3. English shares 50% of its vocabulary with Latin. Are Englishmen Italians?
Let's discuss to learn.
Ukrainians, Russians and Belarusians all share a common ancestry reflected in their DNA. The differentiation occurs based on the intermingling with other peoples' in the region (e,g., Russian with turkic).
The same is true of the Dutch and German example you gave. Their DNA make-up from the paternal and maternal share the same lineage.
Both Dutch and Germans derive their current dialects from the western germanic language.
Italians don't speak Latin mostly anymore. Their language, history and culture evolved.
All this diversity is good for human beings to get to know one another not to slaughter each other in the name of some constructed identity if its not rooted in human notions of decency, dignity, fairness and morality.
I know Italians don't speak latin
When will Ukrainian citizens wake up and smell the gunpowder…?!
They have.
Look at Zelensky’s approval numbers. He’s only still in office, illegitimately, because he canceled elections
That's a good start… but more is needed…!
Comrade, you seriously need to be looking inside.
Russia is sending 18 year olds, elders, wonder soldiers, women, and everyone they can capture in the streets to the frontlines.
Don't you worry about Ukraine draft. They don't have a choice, Russia does.
“Those OTHER guys MADE me enslave people so they could be killed — it’s not MY fault!”
"They don't have a choice" –
That is untrue.
But, the alternative to reason is power, and since a large majority of western politicians is not susceptible to reason, power and force is needed to subdue them.
https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/world-news/war/kamikaze-ai-drones-released-on-russian-troops/
Keith Kellogg is referred to as Mr. Corn Flake. Orlov's Kellogg and American tirade begins at 17:57.
From the same school for sociopaths as Madeleine 'Worth it" Albright.
U rotten MOFU Blinken!!
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/full-lavrov-carlson-interview-us-russia-need-cooperate-sake-universe
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov made the most salient point that Volodymyr Zelensky isn't Ukraine's legitimate leader. Ukraine's last election cycle was banned months ago.
How would Keith Kellogg and Zelensky expect to discuss the non-negotiable?
Yes, you are right it is the most salient point here. It is a critical point. Because before negotations could take place Zelensky would first have to be reelected as the legitimate Ukrainian President. Since that is at best equally impossible than a military victory for Ukraine and what this electory defeat would translate to for him personally (a de facto death sentence) there is no incentive for him or his regime to end this war. That is why they are conceding to sacrificing Ukrainian youth rather than themselves. There is a word for this kind of careful weighing of priorities I'm sure.
Let's see if God Almighty can answer a prayer-
"I pray that those who orchestrate the genocide in Gaza and/or WHEREVER run into an unforeseen catastrophe that puts a stop to their murderous plans!"
There! That's my prayer to God so let's see what happens the next couple weeks! My forgiving heart is becoming more UNFORGIVING by the hour.
“Ain’t gonna go to war, no more! Ain’t gonna go!”
https://sputnikglobe.com/20241206/pepe-escobar-the-syria-tragedy-and-the-new-omni-war-1121108341.html
I'm reminded of the creeps in Nazi Germany who had no qualms sending people to their deaths – for a cause. And Blinken is a true believer, as are most sycophants.
Ukrainians condemn US call to lower conscription age amid Russia’s war
Al Jazeera 3 dec 2024
Would four or more Oreshnik missile strikes on Lviv prevent it from becoming the capital of Western Ukraine?
Hey Blinken! “This is your rifle! This is your gun! This is for fighting and this is for fun!!?”
Both President Trump and Joe Biden got 5 draft deferments during the Viet Nam war. Both should agree with Ukraine teenagers.
President Trump got 5 draft deferments, 4 for college, one for bad feet.
President Joe Biden received 5 medical draft deferments.
https://www.rt.com/news/608893-danish-fighter-jets-ukraine/
More F-16s delivered to Ukraine – Kiev
Provided by Denmark, the US-made fighter jets will strengthen the country’s air defenses, according to Vladimir Zelensky
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.