Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said Monday that the first batch of US-made Abrams tanks have arrived in Ukraine, which are armed with toxic depleted uranium (DU) ammunition.
“Abrams are already in Ukraine and are preparing to reinforce our brigades. I am grateful to our allies for fulfilling the agreements!” Zelensky wrote on X. “We are looking for new contracts and expanding the geography of supply.”
US officials confirmed the arrival in comments to The New York Times, saying they were the first of 31 tanks Ukraine would receive and that more would be delivered in the coming months. They said so far, Ukraine has received two tank platoons, which puts the number of Abrams between eight and 10.
The US is supplying Ukraine with refurbished M1A1 Abrams, an older variant of the tank. When the Biden administration first announced it would arm Ukraine with Abrams, they promised new M1A2 tanks, but they needed to be manufactured and would have taken years to be delivered, so the Pentagon chose to send older tanks to speed up the timeline.
The provision of US-made tanks marks a significant escalation of US support for the war, especially since they are armed with DU, which is linked to cancer and birth defects where it is used. The Pentagon announced it was shipping 120mm DU rounds to Ukraine as part of a weapons package announced on September 6.
The UK was the first NATO country to arm Ukraine with DU for use with British-made Challenger 2 tanks despite Russian warnings. In response to the UK sending DU to Ukraine, Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered the deployment of nuclear weapons to Belarus.
We only give the very best! DEPLETED URANIUM?!
Like AA batteries in flashlights with the bulb getting weak, when radioactivity in fuel rods declines, they are replaced and recycled into DU rounds- still radioactive! And deadly not just to children picking them up in the field, but our own troops and pilots firing them from their guns, as part is breathed in as a gas. Absolutely no excuse for them to be allowed by the Geneva Convention, any more than white phosphorus which cannot be extinguished as it burns to the bone- and allowed for use in “illuminating” artillery shells. But war profiteers have the last word if Americans just sit on their hands.
“”when radioactivity in fuel rods declines, they are replaced and recycled into DU rounds- still radioactive!””
there it is right there in a nutshell = modern warfare
Explains why they didn’t work for my toenail fungus. But, I’m grateful I’m an old man who is still unable to give birth to deformed babies. (Sarcasm)
😂
Your lack of fundamental chemistry knowledge is appalling. First, You can not make a DU round from spent nuclear fuel rods. DU rounds are made from the tails of the enrichment process. Second DU never becomes a gas. The boiling point of Uranium is is cl0sed 7500 degrees. Third, a spent or new DU round gives off mainly alpha particles which are not dangerous unless the source of the alpha particles is ingested. Fourth the only way to ingested DU is from the dust generated by the small amount of DU that oxidizes to uranium oxide when the round strikes metal. Of course if one is inside the vehicle when struck by a DU shell, the uranium oxide is the least of one’s concern. And fifth the half live of uranium in the body is 2 weeks. So unless one ingested a large amount or are pregnant the probably of getting cancer DU is small.
If Russia was using it or using cluster bombs, our neocon State affiliated media, would call them war criminals.
Sounds relatively safe when you put it like that but why are all those Iraqi and Serbian children getting birth defects all of a sudden?
Depleted uranium is not from nuclear reactors only but from natural uranium from which U235 is removed by diffusion or by centrifugation. Iran is producing a lot.
Nukes in Belarus is a response to the military threat from territories of Poland and Germany.
Delivering of cluster and radioactive ammunition to Ukrainian front gives to Russia the moral right to do anything what can damage US and NATO. The opinion of the global south that’s what does matter. The competition between BRICS and international organizations controlled by US oligarchy is going to escalate. It is important for Russia and China to keep BRICS united.
Invading and taking land by force from a neighboring country, hurting their small economy as well as killing their people and spreading millions of unmarked mines that will be killing them for decades, gives Ukraine the moral right to do anything what can damage Russia.
spreading millions of unmarked mines that will be killing them for decades,
Brilliant. Since the Russians are doing it in Ukraine, the Ukrainians have the same right to do it in Ukraine.
Same as cluster munitions – we reached the bottom of the barrel in giving Ukraine more weapons to keep the killing going on.
A proverb from your country’s now and future enemy, Donald ! “When setting out for revenge, first dig two graves.”
How about this one, Unc?
“Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win”
You mean like in Afghanistan, Vietnam, Iraq, Syria, Serbia, and Libya?
Yes. Just like that.
Are there “marked” mines used sometimes?
Yes.
Do some research.
Not marked for the enemy. Do that research and use common sense.
BRICS? Russia is dying and China knows where they stand. Climate change IS one of the biggest issues for all of us. (Y’all always show your a** and expose yourselves as right-wingnuts. MAGA, baby! Hahaha)
Since the USA is such a shining city on a hill, I’m sure US tanks will burn brighter than the others.
They will burn, but with better sighing and thermal vision systems they have a decent chance of taking out the Russian before the Russian even sees them. Also crew protection is a bunch better thanks to an extra 20 tons of armor. Same size gun as a Russian tank same power motor as a Russian tank but 20 tons more weight.
So Yeah, they have advantages, supposing Tank vs Tank combat – but there has been very little of that in this war; many tanks, on both sides, have been destroyed by drones, or by smart artillery directed by drones. Add in those destroyed by atgms, from multiple sources, and mines, and that accounts for most of the lost tanks. Many of the Ukrainian tanks destroyed in the current offensive were hit before they even crossed into the security zone, long before they had a chance to use their “superior optics” against the Russians. This is a very new warform; where ISR and rapid, responsive “smart targeting” rule.
Sure, two tanks approaching each other on a featureless frictionless plane is not how this is going down. More guns and more armor for whatever side helps them. They are better tanks than what the Russians have but not magic.
My point; modern war isn’t like a wrestling match, where 118 pounders only fight other 118 pounders; it’s all about early detection, through multiple sensors, and then rapid precision strikes. In that environment, a tank is a tank is a tank. I would argue the much heavier weight, and logistics train, required by the Abrams and Challenger 2 makes them more of a liability in this type of warfare than an asset. Their “better armor” only helps until the other side puts “better warheads” on their kamikaze drones, atgms, smart artillery shells, or AT mines – something that seems to have already happened. But; we’ll see.
Your analysis of the current armor situation makes sense to me.
War changes as weapons change. It changed when the machine gun showed up. It changed when tanks showed up. It changed when airplanes showed up. It changed when missiles showed up.
Now it’s changing as better man-portable anti-tank weapons, unmanned drones, etc. show up.
Agreed. And it’s why, in my opinion, all the talk about “NATO training” and the US “teaching combined arms doctrine” is so absurd. NOBODY from NATO, including our beribboned pentagon heroes, has ever fought in a modern hi-tech peer conflict, ever, and is as much a clueless amateur as some 20 year old conscript named Ivan from Lviv or Belgorod. All they have are “theories”; and they all have to be tested and proven on the battlefield. In a sane world, US battalion and brigade commanders would be begging their Ukrainian counterparts for “lessons learned”, not pretending that they are the experts, no matter how many rows of “being there” medals they managed to collect.
I suspect that most “lessons learned” filter up over a long period of time as NCOs teach them to junior officers who eventually get promoted.
I’ve actually seen senior officers go out of their way to talk with the lower-level troops and ask them questions about what they’ve figured out on the ground. When I was up on the Kuwaiti border, General Charles Krulak (who was later Commandant of the Marine Corps) drove a lance corporal in my squad nuts. Every time we’d go to chow, here would come the general, sitting down across from him and asking him all kinds of stuff while he tried to eat. I don’t know if he learned anything — I was out by the time he became commandant — but he seemed at least interested in doing so.
That’s how it’s supposed to work; with the “AAR” system identifying what works and what doesn’t. But our junior ranks have no experience either, unless we actually have NCOs and junior officers embedded with Ukrainian frontline units in action?? I certainly hope not.
By “our” and “we” do you mean the US or NATO? If so, I’m guessing not, but that’s just a guess.
The US, since we were discussing how tactical lessons learned should be dissimulated upward. And, I sincerely hope you are right, that we DON’T have anyone imbedded with front line forces.
Javy’s point that better armor is negated by better ammunition is quaified by the cost and supply of better ammunition. This war has shown that resupply is a problem for both sides. Better armor might be effective by raising the cost and decreasing the supply of effective anti-tank systems and ordinance.
Their crews tend to live even when the tank dies, not so sure that is the same on the Russian side.
Depends on where the tank is hit. And, some Russian designs are better than others. But yes, all things being equal, the extra armor (accounting for the great disparity in weight) provides better protection – with the corollary being, in a western tank, a catastrophic hit kills 4 people, in a Russian tank only 3.
C-5 plane (sic).
According to US officials, they are also hard to maintain, use a lot of fuel, hard to train on, and expensive to operate.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/top-us-officials-dont-want-give-ukraine-tanks-rcna66753
Also, they are quite heavy, perhaps too heavy for Ukraine’s roads, bridges and mud.
Every weapon or vehicle, no matter how simple, is the result of design trade offs. Better in some ways usually means worse in others. And that is even more true of something as complex as a tank. To say that the Abrams are “better” per se than the Russian (or British or German) tanks is to greatly oversimplify.
Not to mention that 31 of them are just too few to matter, even if they were as great as you seem to think they are.
Well they have several thousand more that are surplus to our needs. Marine corps for instance is ditching the tanks altogether. Congress insisted we build tanks even beyond what the army wanted, and that is not an orgininzation that is shy about asking for stuff
That’s not responsive. Even the current version is not a wonder weapon, and the Ukies aren’t getting those. And there isn’t even a plan to give the Ukies vast numbers of them. Another thing you might consider is that it takes a long time to train a tanker, and many of the experienced Ukie tankers have already gone to meet Bandera. And the surviving Ukie tankers don’t have a spare year to train on the totally unfamiliar Abrams. Thousands of dusty, crappy, out dated tanks rotting in warehouses in the USA does not easily translate into a Ukrainian panzer army.
Probably beats a T55 which is what the Ruskies are reduced to
Russia is using old tanks like that just as fixed artillery pieces. It has many more tanks from the later series in service in the Ukraine as main battle tanks.
And the hits keep coming 🤦♂️
Meanwhile in the Kremlin.
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/754032c35211c04c7bc72b7282e0c0e39bafee0adde1feef64cde9cd57abaad5.jpg
Julio posing for a picture?
Yes, that’s clearly me working at the Kremlin.
Or perhaps, Doom Sternz.
Maybe even your other favorite idiot, Gen. Igor Konashenkov.
What a shame you didn’t recognize him.
You never looked better.
Canadian Parliament gave a standing ovation to a Galacian SS Nazi. The Galacian SS worked with the OUN (Stepan Bandera) and they committed ethnic cleansing and many other atrocities in Ukraine during WW2. (What Western Media call Ukrainian Independence) The irony is that of course the Nazi’s in Ukraine today are again fighting for Ukrainian Independence as they did many years ago. UKRAINIAN INDEPENENCE…..A very polite way of saying Ethnic Cleansing and Genocide.
In an absolute disgrace a standing ovation for a Ukrainian volunteer of the Galacian SS who fought with the OUN and Nazi’s sparked anger and an apology in the Canadain Parliament. Yaroslav Hunka, 98, was recognized by ALL lawmakers shortly after Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy addressed the Canadian Parliament. This is however no worse than the Ukrainian flag that Zelenski gave the US congress with Nazi regalia on it.
An invitation to parliament for a Ukrainian man who fought for a Nazi unit in World War Two is “deeply embarrassing” to Canada, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says. He was there of course at Trudeau’s invitation.
The US/UK, Canada and other Western powers will go before war crimes tribunals. Ukraine is an abomination on humanity which is starting to look worse than Hitler’s Germany. AS LONG AS IT TAKES RIGHT? Its all about war with Russia right? what a DISGRACE YOU ALL ARE.
The entire Canadian Parliament should resign. or be sacked. This is beyond a disgrace. Send them all to the Hague to answer for their corruption, abuse of power and crimes against humanity.
I agree. But, they’re beyond embarrassment and disgrace. That’s just for us, the little people. In fact, Trudeau already blamed “The speaker has acknowledged his mistake and has apologized,” AND WAIT FOR IT: ….PUTIIIIN. …You think I’m kidding? …Man! I thought I was kidding too! (Sarcasm)
In the world of west against east, Nazis make the perfect bedfellow.
YOU NAILED IT, Analyzer!!!
As i remember it Prime Minister Justin Trudeau accused the Trucker Protesters of being Nazi’s and criminalised them after seizing their bank accounts.
Do the Canadian people understand that their taxes are going to Nazi’s who commit horrendous human rights abuses in the Donbass? Do the Canadian people understand that their Parliament has been arming and training and fighting shoulder to shoulder with Nazi’s?
At what point did Canada STOP being a democracy? It is now a Fascist Dictatorship.
Dude! The Canadians, who live almost at the Arctic, are convinced “Global W@rming” is their biggest problem. You’re talking about low information brainwashed tax and oppression loving people. I have no hope for them at all! (Sarcasm)
At what point did Canada stop being a democracy ? I can tell you exactly when from close personal experience.
When a sleeping love of Authoritarianism awoke during the Panickdemic of Unspecified Origin to widespread welcome and adoration. Never before has blind obedience to Authority, racism, and a general need to be sh*tball humans taken so firm a hold on Canadians as since 2020.
We turned very ugly and it still infuriates and sickens me.
So, you believe the pandemic was a hoax? Please tell me you’re joking.
Do you not travel far because you believe you’ll fall of the Earth as well?
Now, my goodly Jose Cuervo, your Uncle is quite happy to clarify. The ’19 was a real virus and it certainly spread far and wide.
I assert that the response to it, in most of the First World in general, in Canada to be specific, and in BC to be precise, was overblown, incited and encouraged mass hysteria, was disproportionate and horribly managed, and fed an appetite for Authoritarianism, sanctioned racism, and bully politicking that should be a shame upon us for generations.
Money and politics drove it; and from it we have trust in medical science & institutions badly tarnished, dangerous deferrence to What Government Says, and proof positive that our Charter of Rights & Freedoms is AT BEST a series of mild recommendations with not even a glimmer the strength and command of the US Constitution & Bill of Rights.
Now, my goodly Jose Cuervo, your Uncle is quite happy to clarify. The ’19 was a real virus and it certainly spread far and wide.
I assert that the response to it, in most of the First World in general, in Canada to be specific, and in BC to be precise, was overblown, incited and encouraged mass hysteria, was disproportionate and horribly managed, and fed an appetite for Authoritarianism, sanctioned racism, and bully politicking that should be a shame upon us for generations.
Money and politics drove it; and from it we have trust in medical science & institutions badly tarnished, dangerous deferrence to What Government Says, and proof positive that our Charter of Rights & Freedoms is AT BEST a series of mild recommendations with not even a glimmer the strength and command of the US Constitution & Bill of Rights.
Ahhh…thanks for the clarification.
What rights were infringed will be debated for decades but the common good was served. (The example of the effectiveness of the tactics used were revealed when the seasonal flu was NON-EXISTENT in 2020. That usually kills approximately 60,000 in the US in any given year.)
I remember being able to go in a hardware store (Menards) and buy insulation but not paint. Same fucking building. But paint was deemed “nonessential” And the same place that told me I couldn’t go in their building without putting on a particle mask that they provided for me. One that would be used for sanding and such. Certainly not for blocking microscopic organisms. And there were so many other examples of the stupidity. So, it did make one wonder.
The surgical masks were used to prevent sneeze/cough droplets from being sent all over everyone near you. The droplets contained the virus. The nearer you got to and the longer you were close to an infected person, the more likely the virus would get inside you. (That’s why the 6 feet rule was put out.)
I always figured a mask couldn’t hurt, even though both the scientific literature and Anthony Fauci (until he realized he had to go with the moral panic) found no statistically significant evidence that masking reduces community transmission of viral disease (when people cite the Bangladesh study, they never seem to mention that the unmasked control group had a lower positive test rate than the masked groups).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7883189/
It made it harder to identify bank robbers and street muggers.
I know what they were intended to do. But there wasn’t an enforcement of wearing surgical masks. There was an enforcement of wearing a mask. It didn’t matter if the mask you were wearing was effective as a tennis racket. Just as long as you had one on. I have no problem taking precautions, but there has got to be some consistency in the messaging. It was handled poorly.
Read the study I attached. Cloth masks offered SOME protection.
It was “handled poorly” because petulant children held their breath and stomped their feet — like idiots.
My point was it didn’t much matter how much protection the masks offered, it was about whether you had one on or not. That to me, is handling the situation poorly. The masks efficiency should have been an issue that should have been addressed more specifically. That SOME you talk about had a range of damn near completely useless to they help but they don’t STOP the virus from escaping through. Petulant children or not, it was handled poorly.
It is not an either/or proposition. Even a handkerchief offers SOME protection. And even an N95 does not guarantee you won’t get COVID. After years of neglect the US had a shortage of surgical masks.
COVID spreads by breathing air exhaled by infected people and some infected animals. Risk of transmission increases with length of exposure and intensity of exposure. Maintaining a six foot distance is not as effective as living on a farm where your nearest neighbor is half a mile away. I am in a pretty isolated location and I don’t wear a mask unless I go to town or to a medical appt.
The priority of the CDC and the PTB is to get everyone back to work and the into the malls ASAP except for the really wealthy. The priority in the USA/EU/Japan was never public health. If the USA and EU and Japan followed the zero tolerance protocol China used, there would be fewer variants and fewer deaths. Unfortunately, the US opened the floodgates to propagation and mutation of the virus to the point where eventually the infections were out of control in China. So now COVID is a permanent part of the ecology.
No. M.D. and notable host Dr. Drew explained, on a SiriusXM morning show, that he knew medical experts present at the meeting within the CDC early in the pandemic.
None of them had any idea what distancing might be effective (respiratory illnesses have never been successfully contained in human history, only somewhat slowed). 25-ft seemed like a consensus among the group but it would prove unfeasible. So someone suggested “what about six feet ?” and they agreed it sounded do-able.
It was based on no science.
To quote Dr. Drew, “They made it up out of whole cloth.”
When the experts (I’ll try to find the article about the team of the team of respiratory illness scientist that studied — I believe — avian flu — very similar to COVID-19) found it to be airborne transmitted, they were initially dismissed by WHO and CDC, they had to PROVE their findings. When they did, the consensus was 6 ft would suffice as a reasonable distance for the public (while using masks).
They stopped us from walking by ourselves on the beach, in the Florida sunshine!
Correct about the mask. I did a quick back-of-envelope calculation on the known maximum size of a coronavirus (in microns, um) versus the rated pore size (in effect) of your standard half-mask reg with particulate discs attached (as demanded by my employer at the time).
It basically scaled up to essentially using a chain-link fence to stop marbles.
That’s because all of the flu cases were mislabeled COVID. Follow the money!
Your imbecilic wrongness exposes you as a MAGA, D-Bag. Maybe storm the Capitol again and you’ll get what you want. Hahaha. In the meantime, let the adults talk, OK, son?
(Follow what money? The money you paid to the billionaire for that f**king stupid red hat?)
speaking of hats, take off that Dunce Cap, while still recognizing your stupidity when you abstain from avoiding mirrors.
You should audition for the Three Stooges remake.
Dunce cap? What are you 80 years old? (Oh, s**t! Sorry, you probably are. I don’t want to be labeled an ageist.)
Dunce cap is more fitting than red hat for you.
Dunce cap is still applicable and still means the same thing.
The only “storming of the capitol” was in the summer of 2020 when your dunce-like VP egged them all to continue their killings, arson, looting and general mayhem with the infamous words, “……and they are going to keep on doing it.”
Own it, you selective amnesiac.
Only in your mind Trump-humper!
Sure Cankles Cleaner.
Now hold on – MightMakesRightstermeister has a good point. We know many patients who died WITH covid were listed as dying FROM covid. And we know that incentive existed to overstate covid loads in hospitals to draw more state and federal funding, emergency & otherwise.
Further to ‘follow the money’ and cui bono? we know that Moderna et. al. made hundreds of billions off sales of their covid serums (I reserve the word “vaccine” for those substances proven effective at immunization & prevention of transmission) which were developed using federal tax dollars AND done so under a protective shield against any & all possible litigation against Negative Outcomes, again provided by desperate federal governments in many countries.
Where people weren’t mining the virus for political gain (or protection), they were making insane $$$ off it.
Trudeau said, all this story is Russian propaganda.
I just want to appreciate how prescient the 2020 season 2 of The Boys was in this regard
Canadian parliament is elected by Canadian people, only they can sack it. Are you sure they want to sack their parliament? Nazi criminals always were welcome in Canada. I don’t think, people in Canada are not aware of this fact.
You can bet your last kopek that Russia has eyes out for M1’s anywhere in the Ukraine, and that as soon as they’re spotted they will be pounded into scrap. Leopard 2 and Challenger 2 are in the same class as the M1, and we have already seen how the German and UK tanks have fared. You can have the best tanks in the world but if your crews are untrained and don’t know how to fight effectively you’re just going to add to the ‘combat losses’ column.
Russia: Hot dog! New targets! ( If they’re not sold on the black market first, of course!)
The Abrams tank will not be upgraded as planned due to lessons learned from recent tank operations in Ukraine. The Abrams tank “can no longer grow its capabilities without adding weight, and we need to reduce its logistical footprint,” Maj. Gen. Glenn Dean, the Army’s program executive officer for ground combat systems, said in the statement. “The war in Ukraine has highlighted a critical need for integrated protections for soldiers, built from within instead of adding on.”
“We appreciate that future battlefields pose new challenges to the tank as we study recent and ongoing conflicts,” said Brig. Gen. Geoffrey Norman, director of the Next-Generation Combat Vehicle Cross-Functional Team. “We must optimize the Abrams’ mobility and survivability to allow the tank to continue to close with and destroy the enemy as the apex predator on future battlefields.”. . .here
Even back in 1991, the US Marine Corps temporarily mothballed its M1s and pulled its old M60s out for the Gulf War. The C-5 Galaxy transport aircraft could only carry one M1, but could carry three M60s. Of course, a lot of stuff was transported by ship, but they wanted a certain amount of armor in theater ASAP. My (reserve) infantry unit lost a guy because they were going around grabbing anyone who’d been a tanker on the M60 to train up and lead the guys who’d come in since the change to the M1.
“Batch”… I like this choice of words 😉
Museum of the Great Patriotic War will be glad to have this as a new addition to their fine collection of war trophies.
“War! Good god y’all! What is it good for?! Absolutely nothing! Say it again!”
Actually Donna war is pretty pretty fucking good for making scads of moolah for murderers.You have to have no soul or regard for humanity to use weapons like DU but we already know our leaders have no good intentions.
Somewhere I read or heard that the use of DU was a war crime. Has any responsible source disproved this?
Depends who use it. If it is used by Anglo-Saxons, it is a promotion of democracy.
I like an appreciate your sarcasm
“[E]ven if DU weapons can be toxic and radioactive, or can have incendiary or poisonous effects, that does not mean that they meet the legal definitions of nuclear, radiological, toxin, chemical, poison or incendiary weapons. Generally speaking, under international law, the defining feature of all of these types of weapons is that they are specifically designed (and/or used) to kill or injure by means of their particular characteristic property, and this is not the case for DU weapons.” — United Nations Institute for Disarmament Research, 2008
The Russians must be quaking in their boots. How can they carry on in the face of 31 Abrams? They should probably just pack it up and go home.
Americans are so stupid. I got into an argument with some family who happen to vote D and they are just a lost cause. Not that Rs are any better, but at least (for whatever reason) they are now antiwar.
Republicans count the penny’s, the EU NATO members are getting closer to empty pockets, that is likely to change a lot.
A Russian T-72 couldn’t even fend off a Ukrainian T-64 (modified) last week! I think 31 Abrams might be pretty useful against the latest Russian tanks on the battlefield. (WWII-era T-54/55s! Hahaha.)
And trust me when I say: your “D” family doesn’t want your a** anywhere near them! Tool!
NATO has already lost; 479 Aircraft, 250 helicopters, 7172 UAV’s, 438 Anti Aircraft systems, 12151 tanks inc. APC’s, 1155 multiple rocket launchers, 6542 field artillery and 13477 military automotive equipment. Approx. $1 Trillion of NATO hardware.
Plus the home goal Biden kicked when he blew up the NS pipelines. That has not been forgotten. Sep. 26, 2022
If the US did it, what’s Russia gonna do about it?
Nothing.
You have mental issues with your quest to get more people killed in Ukraine.
The Ukrainians are deciding that.
Naw bro their Nazi counterparts in the Amercian national security establishment are calling the shots. Get with the program sporto!
Ok sporto, whatever you say. You are obviously delusional if you think that any tank in the sub 1000s number is going to change the balance of forces.
Never said that. I implied that 31 Abrams will definitely help.
Now, go back to watching Fox News and wondering why your grandkids don’t visit.
Definitely help what? They won’t bolster Ukraine’s defensive or offensive potential in the face of Russian prepared defenses sans close air support. I guess they will be helpful in depleting Russia’s suicide drone arsenal.
“Now, go back to watching Fox News and wondering why your grandkids don’t visit.”
Only intellectually challenged individuals like yourself pay attention to the corporate media, but go on it’s hilarious that you think I’m a conservative. You are like a poster child for the prototypical American idiot. Are you a liberal or conservative yourself? I bet you won’t answer because your are probably not even an American. You are probably some Banderite fascist scum, aren’t you sporto?
How are those “prepared defenses” doing today? They will be very useful when there’s a breakthrough (but you knew that because you’re a military expert, right?)
Actually, you are a typical tankie who route for strongmen like Putin becaase your daddy never hugged you enough; but you were a good boy and learned a new word (Banderite).
NATO pushed the so called “Counter Offensive” to break up the Russian war of attrition which NATO was loosing badly. The so called “Counter Offensive” was a last ditch effort to shape the European battlefield in favour of NATO.
In 3.5 months of the Russian SMO NATO has lost 78 thousand troops (casualties) and 9,500 pieces of equipment. Trillions have been spent in the nearly 10 years of this NATO war on humanity. According to US politicians its the best money they have ever spent. These are psychopaths, predators consuming humanity. Absolute MONSTERS.
The Counter Offensive is a total failure. Its now nothing more than a Dance Macabre.
And today is the first anniversary of the blow up of NS2 pipeline. An declaration of war on the biggest so-called NATO ally.
My sister-in-law is a vehement environmentalist and Twitter addict. When I posted a link to S. Hersh’s investigation on the culprits on a Facebook post she made (referencing the massive methane leak) she IMMEDIATELY posted “debunks” from Twitter.
Her source was Bellingcat.
I almost, ALMOST asked openly if she’s clinically retarded.
Bellingcat fits in the picture. The silence of the environmentalists is telling, here is the biggest criminal damage to the environment and they are silent? The deception and manipulation of the public is amazing. NATO nations governments are criminal, they know what they are doing. MSM is total silence, not a peep.
I suspect Higgins wanted to try to discredit Hersh as a journalist, more than discredit Hersh’s story on NordStream. Since Syria, SH has been the bane of Bellingcat’s federally-funded Proper Viewpoint.
So what? Frankly, I don’t even see how this is any kind of “escalation.” The Ukraine had hundreds, if not thousands, of “Soviet era” tanks to start the war. It has been given more “Soviet era” tanks by the former Warsaw Pact, and now NATO, neighboring countries. And it has also been given tanks by Germany and the UK. All of which have not seemed to make any kind of difference, when it comes to “punching through” the Russian lines. Tanks, per se, are perhaps not the big deal they used to be. And I fail to see why, just cuz they are made in the USA, Abrams tanks are going to be any different. Particularly as only 31 are going to be delivered, and, at that, not the latest or best models. Abrams tanks, by the way, are themselves “Soviet era,” as they went into production in 1979!
Also, the head of the Ukie military intelligence had this to say about the wonder weapon du jour:
“They should be used in a very tailored way for very specific, well-crafted operations because if they are used at the front line and just in a combined arms fight, they will not live very long on the battlefield. They need to be used in those breakthrough operations, but very well-prepared.”
https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-new-abrams-tanks-could-destroyed-russia-1829688
Not sure why antiwar.com thinks it fit to highlight, as the very first article on the page, this kind of strategically meaningless, PR stunt on the part of the USA and the Ukies. Thirty crappy, outdated Army surplus store tanks are not going to turn the Ukies into an invincible legion! Nor does it even amount to much of an “investment” on the part of the USA. More like rubbish disposal, than anything else!
To suggest a possible answer, good Andrew Beckett, as to antiwar.com’s post of this story, I think it is in keeping with following the timeline of both the Biden Admin’s legacy of “no we won’t / yes we will” reversals on providing increasingly advanced weaponry to Ukraine in general; and following up on the Abrams saga in particular.
OK, but it still doesn’t matter, militarily. To say that the Ukraine is recieving “increasingly advanced weaponry” when it is recieving a handful of outdated, surplus tanks is to take the PR of the USA at face value. Abrams tanks, particularly the ones being given, are not especially “advanced” over the Leopards and Challengers it already has, and, for that matter, not really any better than the “Soviet era” tanks it had to start the war. I would think that antiwar.com would do better to highlight the comments of Budanov, which minimize even the anticipated, most likely overly optimistic, efficacy and importance of the big, bad Abrams tanks. Yes, the Biden Admin says “no” and then “maybe” and then “yes.” But what is it saying “yes” to, in the end? It is putting on a show, for sure, pretending to want peace and to be reluctant to “escalate,” but surely the more important point is that it is giving the Ukraine yet another PR victory, yet another BS thing to make memes about, to generate copy over, and so on, but nothing that actually matters on the battlefield.
I can agree with much of that, certainly. Simply that, as one of the last reliable news publishers and information aggregate sites, antiwar.com does well to follow stories over time. Unlike MSM trash-heaps that mention something and never keep track of it or circle back on it later.
Also to keep up on the Abrams story creates a paper-trail, as it were, for record to show that, when the Powers That Be later claim they did on Friday what they always claimed on Monday, we have a timeline of what happened Tues thru Thurs to refute their revisionism.
Beyond interpolating, we can later use such on-the-go reporting and documentation to extrapolate toward likely events to come. Minute details add up over time.
As to the Abrams themselves, they may be Porsches (or upmarketed Buick Roadmasters) but in undertrained hands and up against military might they’ve never faced, they’re as deadsville as Churchill III’s against Tier X tanks on the Erlenberg map.
Additionally, we may expect updates when the F-16’s finally arrive – tho they (as with the Abrams) will a) make no significant difference in the progress or outcome of this war, and b) will probably arrive in time to be the jewels of the recently formed [European Union Welfare State of Western Ukraine] or [Democratic Republic of South Poland].
I am not a gamer. Are those countries you listed in a fantasy game?
Whether tanks will be relegated to the history books is yet to be seen. The Abrams may be deployed to exploit a breakthrough.
“…but in undertrained hands and up against military might they’ve never faced…”
That is a truly ridiculous statement! The Ukrainians have been a**whipping that “military might” for over a year WITHOUT the Abrams and F-16s. I think they’ll be OK.
They might be on a map of eastern Europe by 2025 (hopefully at the latest).
So then, Jose, you claim that Ukrainian Special Services forces HAVE used Abrams before; they are as-trained as any US Army tank driver; and that Abrams tanks have been used and battle-tested against the Russian Army in direct combat before ?
Understanding that I meant that the Abrams, not Ukr. S.S. troopers, have faced Russian Army regulars in combat.
Good luck with you new map prediction.
I know of no direct US Abrams vs Soviet/Russian tank crews. Only Abrams vs Soviet/Russian TANKS.
My supposition — from the short learning curve shown by the Ukes so far with Western kit — is that they learn fast and become effective with the new equipment quickly.
Both end-states of Ukraine I posit, are at least at peace. At present, if they can recover all of circa-2014 Ukraine and don’t push on to conquer the Russian Federation, Kiev may find itself with an unliveable, desolate graveyard. Depopulated, mined, and poisonous.
No time is a bad time for them to end this. “Surrender Dorothy”, as it were, but “Surrender, Presidente For Life Zelenskiyy”. Outside interference botched his chance at peace and greater retained territory (and fewer dead) before…now, PFL Zelenskiyy might redeem himself in history’s eyes, look to the needs of what is left of his people, and still yet find a path out of the mire.
Besides – neutrality and not pouring 2% of Ukraine’s GDP (upwards of US$135 at current market valuation) into an alliance sure to drag you into a future war with Russia, should appeal to Ukraine’s economic future.
Although we can never know for sure, it seems Putin wanted Ukraine as a vassal state so Ukrainians would be in the same boat as the areas of Russia outside of Moscow and St Petersburg. (That doesn’t sound very appealing.) Right now there’s a chance to not only win back your territory but to also eliminate future threats from Russia, I’m willing to bet, if you asked the fighters of the Viet Cong, they would say their independence was worth the losses. (And I’m not implying the dead wouldn’t want to be alive instead.) Independence and perceived freedom are strange motivators, no?
I would agree that President Putin would have wanted a neutral Ukraine; ideally one that leaned East rather than West (hah, remember that gas deal that started this whole mess ?). To that end if we can meet in the middle and equate “vassal” to a state of being equivalent to Belarus, then we’re in agreement I think.
What I come around to as a concern is illustrated by your (unintentional) choice of words. “Win back your territory”. Not “your people”, but, implicit, your real-estate.
My worry is (and granting the sort of miracle I do not believe in) that Ukraine DOES take Crimea and all Donbasi’i territory… and immediately sets to ethnic cleansing. The Banderites are rewarded their perseverence with the extermination of the “lesser race” of Russian-speaking sub-Ukrainians – and the USA and NATO, knowing their complicity in arming and aiding neo-Nazi elements during the war, necessarily look the other way and pretend what is happening, isn’t.
Do you see my long-term concern to any fanciful dreams of Ukraine winning in the fashion it desires ?
I do, and I can assure you that I’d be the first MFer on this site to scream and call for some heads on spikes!
Although it’s always a risk, I’m gonna have to say I think it’s a slim risk. I don’t know the Ukrainian people but if the Western world come to your aid and helps save your a**, you don’t piss-on-their-cornflakes! I have a bit of an idealistic streak that hasn’t been destroyed by humanity…YET! (I’m hoping the situation resembles the Brits after WWII. We now have that “special relationship”.)
WW3 started in 2014 according to NATO. The combined Western nations overthrew the government in a violent bloody coup and installed Nazi’s in power. This is why Canada invited a Galician SS to their parliament and honoured him as a hero.
Settle down, Beavis.
There was a theory floating around years back, that the reason the animated movie was called “Frozen” was so that when people Google’d “disney frozen” they would get only movie results and not old conspiracies that Walt Disney had been cryogenically frozen.
I wonder if My Idiot Parliament invited the Galacian SS fossil so as to make an embarassing scene of it (mission accomplished) then whenever someone like us says “what about those neonazis you’re supporting in Ukraine’s army & gov’t” they can Frozen it and say “Oh you mean that old guy; no, the Speaker resigned and that was the end of the Only Possible Nazi Reference in regards to modern politics.”
I do think you would demand an end to such a genocide, absolutely – you may have something of a wishful-wantful outlook on the Russia-Ukraine War but I think you’re a real person, in a good way !
Just that the Powers That Be will not be inclined to a) admit they’re been funding what they know are far-Right extremists, b) that said Banderite scum are now (in the future tense) committing genocide, and c) now attack or invade Ukraine in a R2P mission to save the selfsame ethnic Russian eastern Ukrainians what the West claims now the Russian Federation did not invade to protect.
I understand where you’re coming from and I hope I’m not being overidealistic or naive. If it happens, I’ll be the first to fall-on-my-sword.
Always a pleasure discussing with you, Unc!
The Minsk1 and Minsk2 agreements showed exactly what Moscow intended. Moscow intended to keep Ukraine sovereign which included the Donbass as part of Ukraine.
Your entire post is from your fantasyland that you emerge from periodically.
Again, OK, but shouldn’t antiwar.com at least MENTION the possibility of a too little, too late situation here? I mean, even the war mongering, Ukraine fellating WSJ is doing that! And the also very, very pro Ukrainian NY Times reported on Budanov’s statement re the limited usefulness of these tanks. Instead, we hear about “escalation,” as if these tanks were some kind of game changer. They’re not.
Haha, “…too little, too late…” has kinda been the underlying theme in articles here. Dunno that anyone (except maybe the Tequila Twins commenting on the site) thinks otherwise.
I think ‘escalation’ is best describing the Russian view of events, not an objective truth in any sense. That the Russian Federation VIEWS Abrams, F-16’s, long-range missiles, DU munitions as escalation is the critical point.
Same too with Crimea. Does not matter the “legal” status of the territory; the RF considers it Russian Federation territory !!and will act accordingly!!. What the USA or Ukraine says is separate from the RF’s view on the matter.
Failing to understand the RF’s perspective (whether or not it aligns with reality or another’s desired version of reality) is a recipe for disaster.
I really don’t think the Russians are soiling their trousers over a couple a dozen out dated tanks, whatever their rhetoric!
And, in my opinion, the articles here are always more on the alarmist, “escalation,” side than they are on the sober, military analysis side, which leads to the too little, too late conclusion. Sure, the non brain dead, non Ukie cheerleader posters here understand about military reality, but the featured articles too often, again, in my opinion, tend to be “OMG the Ukies did XYZ” (like kill an admiral which is really no big deal, and, which maybe they didn’t even do) or “OMG, the Ukies are getting XYZ wonder weapon!”
31 more potential charcoal briquettes…
Considering how much he lies. I’ll believe it when I see them destroyed.
“First Batch of US-Made Abrams Tanks Arrive in Ukraine The tanks are armed with toxic depleted uranium ammunition”
More western tanks to burn on the front line of New Russia.
Unfortunately, as these tanks burn the soil will become poisoned for thousands of years.