Russian President Vladimir Putin on Thursday called Wagner chief Yevgeny Prigozhin “a man of complicated destiny” a day after a plane believed to be carrying the mercenary leader crashed in Russia’s Tver Oblast, killing everyone onboard.
“I have known Prigozhin for a long time, since the 1990s. He made some serious mistakes in life, but he also achieved the necessary results for himself but also for the greater good when I asked him. He was a talented man, a talented businessman,” Putin said.
Discussing Prigozhin’s role in Ukraine, Putin said the Wagner mercenary force “made a significant contribution to the fight against nazism in Ukraine.”
While Prigozhin is presumed to be dead, it has not been officially confirmed by Russian authorities. According to TASS, Putin said “forensic examinations” were being conducted. Russia’s Air Transport Authority said 10 people were listed as being on the plane, including Prigozhin and Dmitry Utkin, a Wagner commander who is believed to be a co-founder of the mercenary group.
Putin said that Prigozhin had returned to Russia from Africa earlier in the day on Wednesday before the crash. Earlier this week, a video of Prigozhin where he appeared to be in Africa was posted on Telegram. It was said to be Prigozhin’s first video address since his short-lived mutiny against the Russian military establishment in June.
The plane that crashed had departed from Moscow and was headed to St. Petersburg, Prigozhin’s hometown, where an unofficial memorial for him and Utkin was set up on Thursday.
The cause of the crash is unclear and has become the subject of speculation, with US officials making conflicting claims to the media. Unnamed US officials told Reuters that it was likely downed by a surface-to-air missile launched inside Russia, while other US officials told The New York Times that it was likely downed by an explosion that could have been caused by a bomb planted on the aircraft.
Well that was subtle lol
Victoria Nuland went to Niger and warned the new govt that they should stay away from Wagner. Soon after Prigozhin taunted Nuland (https://www.newsweek.com/wagner-head-haunts-us-over-niger-talks-1818349) pointing out that Niger had defeated colonialism under Russian flags!
Now Prigozhin is dead, apparently the victim of a bomb planted on his private jet.
And the neighboring African countries in ECOWAS, very much tied to France and the US are halting food and medical supplies from going into Niger.
Once again, it could be said of the US neocons, “They came. They saw. He died – and Nigeriens starved.”
Another reasonable scenario. Like I said, I do not believe Putin was behind this.
If he wasn’t, then he didn’t shed any tears. Not even a crocodile tear.
Of course not. He is not behind the invasion and annexation of Ukraine either.
The guy is a saint. Lol.
How conveniently delusional you are.
“How conveniently delusional you are.”
Says the Fascist scum who thinks Ukraine’s offensive is going to succeed.
Another douchebag.
You are the fascist scum supporting your criminal emperor’s war.
And you got that right. Ukraine will eventually succeed.
But stop coming after me. Focus your effort to cheering your dictators war and tell us how successful is has been.
Is is it possible he invaded when the Minsk fraud was exposed and Stoltenburg refused to negotiate, so as to protect the Russian people and avoid another attack by the same Nazis guilty of 20 plus million dead in WWII??? So Putin decided to stop the danger before it has a chance to install missiles on his border. What any good & far sighted leader would surely do! Just as JFK did in the Cuban Missile Crisis…!!!!!!!!!! Take that you troll oaf….!!!!!!!!!
Putin didn’t invade to protect anybody. That’s a Kremlin BS line that not even they believe.
You should read about Igor Girkin, the leader of the Donbas Separatists and his thoughts about the war.
Putin invaded to turn Ukraine into another Belarus and take over its natural resources and establish a natural gas and grains monopoly.
And when they failed to take Kyiv because they realized their initial plans were too ambitious, they switched their attention to just establish the land corridor to Crimea.
Only idiots believe the Putin wanted to protect his people nonsense.
He can’t even pay and protect his cannon fodder Army.
Russia lost 20 plus million fighting the Nazis and their Ukrainian comrades in WWII and is not about to trust NATO good intensions for Russias security. If Ukraine could or would not agree to be neutral and not join rapacious NATO, and NATO would not agree to keep missiles off Russia’s border, then they deserve a Russian thrashing, not only for their tone deafness, but as a warning to pikers that bear has long claws & a 200 megaton bite!
Wrong, you’re just spewing U.S. propaganda, as you always do. Sure all wars are fought for resources, this is how it goes in Ukraine:
The U.S. has been provoking Russia ever since the Soviet Union disbanded and the U.S. didn’t disband NATO. (To be perfectly clear, the U.S. funds and runs NATO.) The U.S. wanted this war in order to weaken Russia and increase global U.S. hegemony, the resource here being basic power and money.
As to your lie about one of the reasons for Russia’s invasion not being to protect the ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine who were being killed by the Ukraine Nazis: If the ethnic Russians didn’t like Russia more than Ukraine at the time that Russia invaded, explain why the vast majority of them fled to Russia after the invasion and didn’t just flee westward and stay in Ukraine.
Yet another possibility. U.S. and Russia can at least agree that no rouge elements in their country should ever interfere with their chess game.
Western Media were Johnny-on-the-spot with the slick reporting, within seconds really. This reeks of alphabet organization somethin fierce.
Nice try, but, we all know it was Putin.
Who is “we”? A bunch of brainwashed morons?
We, who aren’t dumb enough to believe the US would assassinate someone who marched against Putin less than 2 months ago. We who noticed general Armageddon was demoted the same week.
But you’re dumb enough to jump to conclusions without any evidence. Without evidence, the chances are 50% CIA, 50% KGB.
He and Utkin had many enemies. Also many people would prefer to have them rather dead than alive.
Sure, but my point was that we don’t know who did this until there’s some evidence and/or a whistleblower. Blaming Putin automatically just means that you’re a brainwashed westerner, probably an American.
Yes, but it could be neither CIA nor KGB.
Or perhaps “It could be either CIA or KGB.
It could be anyone on the planet capable of blowing up a plane, but the probabilities are CIA and KGB.
Putin ordered his assassination. There’s no spin nor conspiracies. If you oppose emperor Putin your death will be imminent and not natural.
Find me someone in Russia who has opposed Putin and is not either in Jail or mysteriously dead.
50% Ukraine too. He killed many Ukrainians and never strayed from his fealty to mother Russia. The Russian people loved him. He may have hated the military command, bur he never gave way to being anti-Russian or cut Ukraine any slack. He was a man’s man, and never doubted himself. He is another rogue hero in a long list, along with some of America’s best generals. He deserves a rest in peace!
Maybe, but if it was Ukraine, they certainly had help from the U.S. or at least the U.K.
He also crushed soldiers skulls under his command with a sledgehammer mediaeval style which you think was a great thing to do.
He made lots of enemies along the way.
We = the other non Putin fluffers in this blog.
Oh, I forgot your alpaca fluffer!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, he made some serious mistakes in life. The worst one was the mutiny against the state. Russia is lucky to have Putin as the national leader. So, all the military forces and most of Wagner fighters remained loyal to President. It is easy to imagine what could happen if at the time Russia had an unpopular head of state. This “talented man” could start a civil war with unpredictable outcome. He was a too dangerous loose canon. Whoever killed him, has done a good service for Russia.
“Russia is lucky to have Putin as the national leader.”
Wow.
Don thinks dementia Biden is bettah….
No, i just don’t suck up to dictators like you guys do.
What dictator are you talking about?
Regime changes are all about removing elected presidents to replace them with fascist RW dictators.
Putin was elected, several times, that is the why Biden’s war is about regime change in Moscow, he wants another Zelensky to replace Putin. How come you don’t know that?
Putin is not a dictator, and that’s a provable fact. Goes to show how brainwashed people who take your position are.
What a delusional claim.
A man of complicated destiny is….something.
Hold those horses, everybody. It hasn’t even been completely confirmed that Mr. P was aboard that plane.
And IF he were, and IF there was a bomb planted on the plane, you can be certain who was behind it. (Hint: it wasn’t Putin.)
You can’t be certain of anything in war.
I’m certain it’s all sorts of f*cked up.
“(Hint: it wasn’t Putin.)”
Presumably it was Shoigu. But Putin may still have enough say to have to have been pressured to agree.
I guess I was implying that it may have been a false flag Mr. T.
But who the hell knows.
“Presumably it was Shoigu.”
That’s a lot of presumption. And discussions here are as filled with presumption, assumption and wild-ass guesses as the MSM, unnamed officials, or goofballs on social media.
In reality, we don’t know what happened to this aircraft other than that whatever it was was sudden and catastrophic. Maybe we’ll learn, but it’s just as likely that we never will.
They say he had lots of enemies, we may never know who did it.
It could not have been Putin, he could not even finish Navalny or the Scripals, the Putin people botched it as far as one can tell, Putin is just not competent enough. /s
Very true. Even Michael didn’t pull the trigger on Fredo.
President Putin, as always the statesman.
If by that you mean full of shit, then I agree with you.
He is very diplomatic, he said nothing that can hound him later, not like Biden who goes on TV and says the Russians lost the war, or like Bush, Mission accomplished.
Putin is an accomplished statesman, credit were credit is due. Be objective.
Yes, Putin is an accomplished statesman.
Not sure why you keep acting like that is a compliment, though.
Credit were credit is due, President Putin knows his job. He would never lower himself and call other heads of state names as Biden does.
Putin does his job very well, he is in control of his job, no one can question that. Can you say that for Biden? That is a fact, if you want to call it a compliment so be it.
“Statesman” means “murderous sociopathic thug.”
Yes, Putin is a smoother murderous sociopathic thug than Biden, a better actor.
Whoop de doo.
Not necessarily. One could be a good statesman by using diplomacy instead of war.
Putin is nothing like he’s made out to be in U.S. propaganda. Not saying that I support him, but no one can come close to U.S. presidents in the amount of harm and killing done, and I’d take Putin over any U.S. president any day.
I agree. But comparing piles of fecal matter doesn’t make one pile of fecal matter smell better than the other. And one would have had to see what Putin would have done if Russia had had the power the US possessed during his years as Russia’s leader. Maybe he wouldn’t have done things all that differently than the succession of warmongering fools we have had as our Presidents did.
Your reasoning is faulty, it is like saying you are bad because you would have been a killer under other circumstances.
Putin became president when Russia was a broken nation, the people were starving while Yeltsin sold the nations wealth to western plutocrats and oligarchs. Putin and his people rebuild Russian society and the country. He has something to show, he put food on the table, the Russian people know what a herculean job it was to rebuild the nation. More than 80% of the people support him.
What has our Botox man done ? His goal is to remove Putin from office and replace him with a criminal like Navalny or something and destroy the country, and have big corporations rob the natural Russian resources. Biden is the criminal, Biden is the killer. He could not even handle the Afghanistan retreat.
Without any caveat, President Putin is a great statesman, he has a record to prove it.
I know, it takes courage to say an honest word if it does not fit the neocon narratives.
Yes, Putin is a great murderous sociopathic thug.
I just don’t see anything particularly great about being a murderous sociopathic thug.
You are entitled to your opinion, it is still a democracy and thoughts are free.
I second Lysistrata’s request for some credible evidence here instead of meaningless name-calling. Exactly why is Putin “a great murderous sociopathic thug”?
I don’t know why Putin is a great murderous sociopathic thug. Maybe his mother dropped him on his head when he was a baby, or he got touched on his private parts in elementary school or something.
The “credible evidence” that he is a great murderous sociopathic thug is that he rose to the top of a machine composed of murderous sociopathic thugs, aka a state.
I didn’t ask what caused Putin to be what you called him. I ask why you say that, as in what evidence do you have that he is one.
We might agree on being anti-state. However, an American calling Putin names like that is the height of hypocrisy. Things are relative, and if you can’t see how Putin actually is compared to U.S. leaders, I don’t know what to say to you.
“if you can’t see how Putin actually is compared to U.S. leaders”
I can see how Putin actually is compared to US leaders: Neither especially worse nor especially better. They’ve got slightly different systems and situations within which to function, and that will produce varying outcomes, but they’re essentially the same kind of people.
I was talking hypotheticals. But nice speech.
I don’t have an opinion one way or the other whether Putin is a great statesman, but I agree with the rest of your comment. Where we probably differ is that I don’t like Putin, just like I don’t like any leader of any country, and the more powerful they are, the more I dislike them.
Putin saved Russia from the U.S. and its drunken puppet Yeltsin (if only his alcoholism was the only thing wrong with him!), and Putin is very popular in Russia because of that. Putin should be applauded for this, but brainwashed fools in the U.S. who think they’re progressive parrot U.S. propaganda instead. Again, not a fan of Putin or any other world leader, nor a fan of Russia or any other large country, but whatever evils Putin commits pale in comparison to those committed by U.S. presidents, including Biden.
I think Putin deserves to be respected, he and his cabinet have served Russia and the Russian people well. He repeatedly has reached out to the West, but the USA/NATO pushed him back and broke all agreements other statesmen had made starting with Clinton moving NATO closer and closer to Russia, including nuclear missiles encircling Russia. History will judge whether he is a great or mediocre statesman. Ukraine will join the other failed states, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, and many other nations before them in Latin America and the Pacific region. There is the chance that the European NATO nations will replace Ukraine and become the new proxies for the USA. To a large extent they already disarmed themselves already when they used their stock to arm Ukraine. Many of their weapons are gone .
I’m anti-statist and the larger the country, the more evil it is. Of course humans need to greatly lower our population in order to get rid of things like nation-states, but we should be living tribally and locally. Local dialects & languages, local cultures, etc. Diversity is best!
In order to be a leader in one of these large countries, one must be at least an egomaniac. So there’s that. Then Putin was KGB, another strike against him. I agree with you that Putin isn’t the bad guy here, the U.S. clearly is, but just because the U.S. and its presidents are more evil doesn’t mean that Putin isn’t evil also. Again, this is by definition for me, because he wouldn’t be in the position he’s in if he weren’t evil at least in some way.
I know about Putin only what is in the public domain.
He was a midlevel KGB man, he is not a pushover or he would not be where he is, he can be ruthless but he also gives the impression to have integrity and still connects with the average Russian people. He is a lawyer and his speeches have meaning and introspection, he keeps his word, and he picked excellent people to work with.
I believe he has a conscience, he would not waste young lives for nothing the way Zelensky and the Biden gang do. I think he is humanistic inclined, he is a Mensch, not a Saint.
How is the saying, ALL forms of government are bad but democracy is the best we have. Simple explanation.
The ideals and reality are in conflict. Even a Democracy needs a government with enough authority to be able to govern. The voters are like flies in a paper bag. We, the voters, can’t vote for people with character and integrity when corporate money controls the so-called free press, information is the lifeline of Democracy. We must know what character the candidates are, they must have integrity, and a social conscience. We have morally bankrupt leaders and the pundits are silent, not a word of critic about the candidates, the party establishment picks them and covers them up and breaks the other candidates, that made a Trump and Biden possible. They were never qualified for the job, both corrupt party establishments knew it. Trump was more difficult to handle than Biden, I think.
The pundits in MSM are the whores of the corporate owned government we call democracy. Their ambitions are about making more money than their millionaire college on the other channel, they sold their professional integrity for million $$$ salaries.
I agree that there’s no point in trying to determine which pile smells worse, which is why no real progressive, and even more so no radical, should ever vote for a Democrat.
However, from what I’ve read and seen Putin say, he’s way better than any U.S. president on foreign affairs. Far more reasonable, far more understanding of other countries’ interests. Watch the Oliver Stone interview with Putin and tell me what you disagree with, for example. That doesn’t mean that he’s telling the truth — he is, after all, a politician and former if not current KGB — but at least he says the right things, which is far better than U.S. presidents. Of course we can’t know what he’d do if he were to have the power that U.S. presidents have, but you could say that about almost everyone on the planet.
I said I agreed with you. And you hit on my point about what he’d do if he had the same power as the US. So, would his speeches be the same if he did? If the US had been bitch slapped by Russian provocations for the past 30 years, I can only imagine how different the speeches would have been by US presidents.
I apologize if I misunderstood you.
Putin grew up in Saint Petersburg after the war, his family experienced the NAZI Siege of the city. That shaped the family and Putin. His family lost an infant during the siege.
“During World War II, Leningrad was surrounded and besieged by the German Wehrmacht from 8 September 1941 to 27 January 1944, a total of 29 months. By Hitler’s order the Wehrmacht constantly shelled and bombed the city and systematically isolated it from any supplies, causing death of more than 1 million civilians in three years; 650,000 died in 1942 alone.”
That does shape families for generations. He would have been a different American president in my opinion. Kennedy too was a different president then all the others that came after him. He too experienced real war, his speeches had quality and introspection. All we get now is campaign propaganda, decisions are made based on public opinion polls and so on.
I wasn’t replying to you.
Former President Bush senior was the Director of the CIA and so was Pompeo frm President Trump’s SoS.
Not all CIA people are bad either, some do have integrity and do have the courage to be critical of the government. Some ret. military people are not lobbyists and they too speak up and follow their conscience.
The Russophobes have been demonizing Putin because he is no alcoholic Yeltsin.
That’s like saying not everyone in the military in Nazi Germany was a bad person. Totally irrelevant. Organizations like the CIA and KGB are evil, that’s what’s important.
Basically I agree with you, but sometimes young, idealistic people do wind up in the wrong agencies. Then on the job, as they find out what it is about, they grow up and others find out that they just fit in.
Some of the better once pop up on You Tube like Ray McGovern and Larry Johnson and some others.
The organizations are still evil.
What Putin was — at least since Chechnya and up until February of 2022 — was more realistic that the American neocons.
The American neocons got high on their own supply, convinced themselves that the US was the “sole remaining superpower” and set for global hegemony, and embarked on a disastrous (for everyone except the military-industrial complex) set of foreign military adventures.
After discovering with Chechnya how hard it is to reinflate a deflating empire, Putin was content to try and preserve what was left of the Russian empire with a minimum of foreign adventurism. And he did a pretty good job of it.
Of course, that begs the question of who really runs the show. Shoigu’s power has been continually increasing since Soviet days. He largely made Putin, and then won out in the struggle with Serdyukov in 2012 to be minister of defense … after which Russian foreign policy became more adventurist. Whether that was at Putin’s behest, merely with Putin’s cooperation, or against Putin’s judgment, who knows?
Please, back it up with proven credible evidence. Allegations only just don’t count. Your judgment is pretty biased, based on narratives not facts.
It is MY OPINION, based on public information available to all of us. I
It is not just a compliment, it is earned respect for the statesman, credit where credit is due.
Now I could compliment President Biden on the great facial Botox results but not in respect for statesman ship which he lacks.
I could call him a thug, how would you like that?
How would I like you calling Biden a thug? I’m not sure why you think I’d have a problem with it. That’s how I usually refer to him.
The main difference between him and Putin is that I personally know people who’ve been sent to prison because of Biden’s thuggery.
Any differences between them are minor differences of degree, not major differences of essence.
It is public knowledge that Putin did send some of the oligarchs to prison based on fraud and robbing the nation along with European and American Plutocrats, they served time, like Navalny is or has served time. They had their day in court and after serving time they migrated to Europe, mostly the UK and the USA. No one has claimed they were innocent, some of them have been guests on MSM demonizing Putin.
But Biden is a ruthless, aggressive man. He refused to lift illegal sanctions against Syria for only 3 days so earthquake victims could have been saved, he confiscated Afghanistan’s foreign funds and imposed sanctions, starving the people and denying medical help after decades of brutal illegal war against some of the poorest people. He supported the war in Iraq knowing full well there were no WMDs and I could go on. He has refused every Ukrainian or Russian initiative to end the war in Ukraine, he insists on continuing the war knowing there are no able bodied Ukrainians left to fight, they are short on weapons, but he insists to use the children and old men for cannonfodder to get his regime change in Moscow and the destruction of Russia as a nation. In my eyes he is a man with no honor, no integrity and no morals, I don’t care how often he goes to church, he should have been excommunicated a long time ago, he is evil.
“Putin is an accomplished statesman.”
Such a simple statement and it got under your skin, why? It is because you are very much biased against anything Russian, I think.
You did not objective, and factual reason saying what is wrong with the statement.
Maybe you can explain it.
I am not offended, so be free to say what you want to say.
I’m biased against “statesmen.” Politics is a death cult, and the death cultists who get to the top perches of their respective denominations (states) are the worst of the worst. But Putin is one of the better among the worst of the worst, as I’ve repeatedly said.
I’m a huge fan of almost everything Russian, except maybe borscht (I don’t like other dishes made from beets, either — and on a quick look, I see that it’s the Ukrainian variant of borscht that’s made with beet roots, so I may see if I can find an authentic Russian recipe to try). I love the country’s history, I love its music, I love its literature, and according to my DNA test results, I’ve got considerable ancestral connections there.
I don’t like states. Any of them. I don’t hate the Russian state any more than I hate the Ukrainian state or the US state or the Israeli state or the Chinese state or the Taiwanese state or the Jamaican state. And I don’t like the people who run those states, because I’m just not a big fan of violent death cults or violent death cultists.
Putin uses Mercs. He’s a piece of shit. Putin uses cluster bombs. He’s a piece of shit. The fact that Russia was provoked into this senseless carnage doesn’t change that fact. Stop comparing him to other pieces of shit to try to make him look different. He’s a ruthless ex-KGB thug. Period. You are the one who needs to be objective.
I think you do need some college level reading material. I recommend some current history from Prof. Mearsheimer and Prof. Jeffery Sachs, an economist and former government official. Both are available on YOU TUBE, there is enough material to earn college credits. There are many more worth listening to, providing different perspectives, former senior military officers, and real professional journalists, and more, Consortium News, is excellent reading. The MSM is nothing but millionaires infiltrating and manipulating your brain with the narrative of the morally bankrupt establishment, in fact, they are part of the establishment. They help to manipulate your mind while earning million $$$ salaries.
OK, let’s read some Mearsheimer:
“Even if it wanted to, Russia lacks the capability to easily conquer and annex eastern Ukraine, much less the entire country. Roughly 15 million people — one-third o! Ukraine’s population — live between the Dnieper River, which bisects the country, and the Russian border. An overwhelming majority o! those people want to remain part o! Ukraine and would surely resist a Russian occupation. Furthermore, Russia’s mediocre army, which shows few signs of turning into a modern Wehrmacht, would have little chance of pacifying all of Ukraine. Moscow is also poorly positioned to pay for a costly occupation; its weak economy would suffer even more in the face of the resulting sanctions. But even if Russia did boast a powerful military machine and an impressive economy, it would still probably prove unable to successfully occupy Ukraine. One need only consider the Soviet and U.S. experiences in Afghanistan, the U.S. experiences in Vietnam and Iraq, and the Russian experience in Chechnya to be reminded that military occupations usually end badly.”
Sounds a lot more like Don Julio than like you.
Please, what was the date, before or after the regime change? The regime change started the civil war in Ukraine because the RW government outlawed the Russian language, religion and education, some 14000 Russian speaking Ukrainians were killed with NATO supplied weapons. He is right, Russia did not want to annex Ukraine. It is also true that Russia was not a military giant, and Russia approved the Minsk agreements, which the US that did not support. Minsk provided autonomy for the Russian speaking Ukrainians and and neutrality for Ukraine, that is what the people voted for when they elected Zelensky’s peace ticket. After he was elected he tossed the Minsk agreements. The people did not vote for NATO membership. Kiev got ready for war when NATO took over the Ukrainian army, that is when Russia knew they better be prepared for war. So put it in historical context, Prof. Mearsheimer had it right. McCain was wrong, the Americans were sure Russia was just a filling station and they can provoke Russia and win the war. The AMERICANS WERE WRONG, they thought going to WAR with Russia would be a CAKEWALK. The American intelligence was wrong, Mearsheimer did not know more than they did.
Russia never wanted to annex Ukraine, they wanted secure borders only. The Russophobes in Washington suffer from Delusion of Grandeur, they think they can rule the world.
Mearsheimer could not know how greedy and power-hungry the Americans are, they want to rule Russia and the Russian resources.
The date was 2019, several years after the regime change.
Mearsheimer DOES get a lot right, but it would be a mistake to believe he agrees with you that Putin is some kind of magical faultless “statesman.” He just believes that Putin’s goals are explicable rather than the product of some kind of raving imperialist mania. As do I.
The coup regime did not “outlaw the Russian language.” It did require that government paperwork and government education materials be in Ukrainian. Which was indeed an unacceptable imposition, but there’s no reason to inflate it beyond what it actually was if you’re interested in facts rather than in propagandizing.
Of the 14,000 killed in the seceded republics, a great many were Ukrainian regime troops. Were they killed with NATO supplied weapons? Again with the propaganda, apparently believing that no one will call you on it.
While I don’t always agree with Mearsheimer, I appreciate that he’s a realist. You should try that approach out some time.
Mearsheimer is a historian, he never talks about philosophical politics and morals, he puts the facts on the table and common sense.
I never considered any statesman to be without fault, they are human, they make mistakes like other people. But statesmen must have character, they must be trustworthy and keep their words and agreements. They must show respect and diplomatic manners for each other. Putin’s big mistake was that he WANTED to trust the Biden people would respect the need for Russian border security. He knew he could not trust them there were enough broken agreements to know. He did what he could to avoid any military conflict, and as Ambassador Matlock had said, this conflict was avoidable, but Biden and his neocons did not see it that way, they wanted the war, you can split hair, the fact remains, the Ukraine disaster was totally avoidable and Biden knew it. Biden wanted war, and now he is risking war with China, how stupid can it get? USA/NATO has always been the aggressor and never defended a NATO member, but the Biden USA/NATO gang even attacked Germany, a NATO partner, when they blew up the NS pipelines. That is, to say the least, bizarre, Norway helped, Sweden and Finland give up their neutrality to join an outfit where allies stab you in the back? That is INSANITY.
I am objective, the Mearsheimer approach, when I say he is much more objective then you are, you should try it.
Mearsheimer doesn’t throw around fanboy moonshine about how this or that politician is a kind-hearted “statesman” who’s just trying to “protect” the people he didn’t give a shit about, and participated in shelling, for eight years and then suddenly woke up one day with a soft spot for.
Mearsheimer is a “realist” of a particular type. You’re a fantasist of a particular type. The two of you are nothing alike.
Mearsheimer is a historian and has a job to consider. I am just a retired voter. I can say what I think , I have nothing to lose. Just the same, you should heed your own advise.
BTW Mearsheimer has mentioned the demonizing of Putin and the denial of the man’s accomplishment, just normal decency.
I don’t “demonize” Putin any more than I “demonize” any other murderous sociopathic thug (“politician,” “statesman,” etc.).
I agree with Mearsheimer that Putin had “legitimate” security “concerns.” I opposed the US coup in Ukraine. I opposed Ukraine’s attempts to forcibly repatriate the seceded republics in the Donbas. I opposed US aid to Ukraine before the war, and I still oppose it.
That doesn’t mean I have to pretend Putin shits prime rib and pisses high-quality vodka into the mouths of his worshipers.
As murderous sociopathic thugs (“politicians,” “statesmen,” etc.) go, he’s done a good job over a long reign of slowing the decline of the empire he inherited, and contra the speculations of some, he’s never shown any signs of wanting to “reconstitute” the Soviet version of that empire. Or at least not since the Chechnya debacles, anyway.
I’m still of the opinion that he expected to pull off a Georgia-like stroke in Ukraine, a lightning offensive that would quickly secure the Donbas republics, after which he’d have stood down, wagged a finger at Zelenskyy and told him to knock it off if he didn’t want some more. And frankly I wish that, once he took the bait, that was what had happened. Instead it turned into a fiasco on him. Someone in power as long as he’s been in power is going to make a mistake sooner or later. He made his.
Why do you keep calling Putin a murderous sociopathic thug? He is the elected president of the RF as such he has an oath of office which includes the security and well being of the Russian nation. What has he done that another president would not have done? As far as I can tell your opinion of Putin is based on decades of one sided propaganda against Russia, the alcoholic Yeltsin was not a problem. He served US interests, the time when Trump made money in Russia, but he never got his Moscow Trump tower under Putin.
Politicians are murderous sociopathic thugs.
He hasn’t done anything than any other murderous sociopathic thug — Biden, for example, or Macron, or Xi — wouldn’t do.
Yeltsin was a murderous sociopathic thug, too — as was George H.W. Bush.
Brezhnev was a murderous sociopathic thug. So was Nixon.
Kennedy and Kruschev.
FDR and Stalin.
Wilson and Nicholas II/Lenin.
Lincoln and Nicholas I.
I’m an equal opportunity despiser of death cults (states) and the murderous sociopathic thugs (“statesmen”) who run them.
But as murderous sociopathic thugs go, I have more respect for Putin than I do for Biden or Zelenskyy. Apart from whatever propaganda mills you’re getting your fan-fiction from, at least Putin doesn’t pretend with a straight face that he heads a “democracy.” Russians know where they stand with respect to him. They’re on his side, or they’re in prison, if they don’t happen to fall out of a window or get poisoned first.
Thomas, I see it all a little more complex, I may be wrong, but I can’t follow your logic. You have a different back ground than I have and you reach different conclusions than I do with my life experience.
About what? I’m just comparing Putin to others. When the US uses Mercs, I say our leader is a piece of shit for doing so. Same with Cluster munitions.
On the surface, at least, Putin recognized that a lot of loyal Russians signed up to work for Wagner, and declined to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Moreover, if I am reading the tea leaves correctly, former Wagner troops who now want to wear Russian uniforms will play a critical role in the war during the coming weeks.
The Putin people handled the issue with discipline and competence.
Who gives a crap what US sources have to say, other than to note that Uncle Sam sticks his nose into everyone’s business.
It has barely been 24 hours passed this incident and US unnamed experts have their conclusion…!
It’s really not that hard to meet a conclusion given the situation. And there’s these things called eye witnesses, Radars that can show planes and flying missiles all in one screen from hundreds of miles away. There’s also signal and human intelligence.
But you don’t have to believe it.
Yes, but those things have to be corroborated.
The history of plane crashes in which planes go down with smoke pouring out of them or even go down in flames has produced the following causes. Plane was hit by a missile. A deliberately planted bomb on the plane exploded. An explosive or a flammable liquid which was unintentionally brought on board caught fire (that actually happened to a can of car gasoline stored in an overhead bin!). A spark ignited fuel in a fuel tank.
If this plane was given an unauthorized “inspection”, there must have been witnesses. And since the stewardess knew, the pilots of the plane are likely to have known too. Then why did they fly a plane to which something was done they did not know about? Or decided to land immediately after they learned it?
And sometimes there’s no need to corroborate given the trend and history.
That’s a load of bullshit. In every case there is a need for corroboration.
right then = “Putin said …”
remember when the narrative was “Saddam said ….”
and right around that time = “bin-Laden said…. ”
i remember when when Uncle Sam said, “hey all yall’s americans, “the entire middle east is riddled with Weapons of Mass Destruction” – so when we demand $5 Trillion for defense, yalls should not hesistate to sign the life-savings over to US.
edit = just to be clear, i am not a big fan of liars who lie about world events in order to manipulate trillions of tax dollars into their own pockets. WHAT!
According to a message sent before the flight, the stewardess stated that the plane was strangely sent to a service bay, which would explain how security at Sheremetyevo was circumvented..
According to other sources, the pilot had just pledged allegiance to ISIS before the flight and had a suicide vest.
The blackbox will show he yelled ‘allah akbar’ before the explosion.
Do you realize what this message, if true, implies? If that plane was strangely sent to a service bay and the stewardess knew it, then the pilot knew it. The pilot is responsible for the protection of every passenger on board. He should have refused to take off until he knew exactly what had been done to his plane and I mean knew exactly.
If her did not know but the stewardess knew she was obliged to inform the pilot.
That plane should have never taken off.
We would assume that the pilot should know.. The stewardess, who died in the crash, was alarmed enough to post a message to a personal contact..
Who knows what will come of an investigation.. If there was an exploding case of wine, it could have been put aboard at this service bay.. My experience with Sheremetyevo was that cameras are everywhere..
To para-phrase Uncle Joe Stalin ….
If’n yur gonna lead a mutiny against Russia, yur wagon just might explode on the way home.
No, this doesn’t have CIA written all over it. Noting to see here, move along!
You can also blame it on Nuland’s secret Invisible Flying Submarines or even COVID.
Anything except your boy, Putin because he is definitely incapable of doing such act.
He didn’t even invade and annexed Ukraine,
That was done by Nuland and the CIA or could have been done by any of those Disney Fairy Tale cartoonists.
It is telling that only the American intelligence has a theory. Are they
not able to wait and see what the investigation finds? Or do they already know what caused the crash? Or are they be saying “it wasn’t us”?
Remember they knew Putin was going to invade Ukraine months before the invasion and after Putin denied it numerous tines? Even you guys supported Putin on his denial.
It’s kind of something like that.
From what I can see the US decision makers are driving in the dark without headlights. And in meantime Putin’s ratings remain high according to Levada Ce nter. From the historical record Putin is much more reactive than proactive in terms of trouble making. And he has been consistent in his pleas for security arrangements in Europe and vehemently against NATO expansion, like the rest of Russian leaders. It all starts there. But for most Americans, any explanation of the Prigozhin crash, except the one that points to Putin personally, will be dismissed as disinformation. This is preordained. So Russia will just take its time. Meanwhile Ukraine continues to get crushed as US watches, after bluffing for decades about its military might. Anyone wonder where all those hundreds of billions in defnse spending went? Maybe the Ukraininas are wondering. But not Don Julio.
Don is a true believer, nothing will shake his religious believes, but then again, maybe he is only a troll.
No one “supported” Putin saying that Russia wouldn’t invade. First, when did he say that? Second, we just didn’t think he’d actually do it. Personally, I thought that invading would be too disastrous for Russia, but apparently they had planned some things like their economy to withstand U.S. sanctions.
Regardless of U.S. intelligence saying ahead of time that Russia — not Putin, BTW — was going to invade, it was the U.S. and its intelligence that caused this in the first place by provoking Russia with eastward NATO expansion, and the 2014 coup in Ukraine that caused/allowed the Ukraine Nazis to attack the ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine. People who take your position on this don’t want to accept this reality because it’s contrary to your brainwashing, which tells you, “Putin & Russia bad.”
For years the USA/NATO provided arms and training to the Ukrainians. Ukraine became a de facto NATO MEMBER, they had military NATO exercises inside Ukraine. The Russians knew all about it. Considering the closing in and encircling of Russia by NATO troops contrary to past agreements was telling.
The Russians are not stupid, common sense told them NATO was setting the Ukrainian up for war with Russia, they had to get ready to fight the USA/NATO alliance.
But the arrogant Americans thought the Russians are stupid as their propaganda told them, war with Russia will be a CAKEWALK, what else could they expect.
Intelligence agencies and their people are professional liars. Don’t believe anything they say in public. Sometimes they purposefully leak their lies, so you have to be very suspect of their whistleblowers too. Only where a comment or information is contrary to their and the establishment’s interests would I believe what they say without requiring proof.
Ironically, The same folks here now claiming Putin didn’t kill Prigozhin and/or that there’s not enough evidence for such claim, are the same folks who claimed the US destroyed the NS pipeline and Ukraine the dam.
The facts are that the USA refuses a real investigation of the pipeline blow-up. Seymour Hersh has the only credible and plausible explanation. If the NATO alliance does not agree, they are free to investigate and prove Seymour wrong.
But their silence and lack of response speaks volumes, if they did not do it, they would have screamed it from the roof tops. It all makes Seymour Hersh even more believable and he is credible, politicians are proven liars. They invaded Iraq, destroying the nation leaving a trail of blood and terror, all based on lies.