Congressional Ukraine Caucus Co-Chair Says War May Not Be ‘Winnable’

157 thoughts on “Congressional Ukraine Caucus Co-Chair Says War May Not Be ‘Winnable’”

1. Captain Andy Obvious Harris (R-Genius-MD)

   Fixed that for ya, Dave.

   1. LOL

2. NATO has already lost; 458 Aircraft, 246 helicopters, 5805 UAV’s, 431 Anti Aircraft systems, 11349 tanks inc. APC’s, 1144 multiple rocket launchers, 5918 rocket launchers and 12289 military automotive equipment. Approx. $1 Trillion of NATO hardware.

   There is a strategic need for Russia to fight NATO in a war of attrition. Russia will grind down NATO nations until it becomes existential to them. And then sue for peace on Russia’s terms. War crimes tribunals will be a part of that surrender.

   No elections, forced gunpoint conscription, anti retreat troops, book burning, banning of free speech, looting of churches, arresting church leaders, government death hit lists, mass murder of civilians, ethnic cleansing campaigns, assassination of peace negotiators, bombing of Nuclear power stations, bio weapons research labs, destruction of Europe’s energy infrastructure, terrorism, kidnapping, rape, torture, massive human rights abuses etc etc etc.

   Yep this is a Western war for freedom and democracy right? Up is Down, Black is White its all just big lies after big lies. Hence the state sponsored censorship campaigns to hide the truth.

   1. DOOM, DUCK YOUR HEAD!!! DEEP$HITSTATE-TALKING-POINTERS ARE MAD!!! Didn’t you see what they did to George Orwell in his own words? ‘If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face – for ever.’ (Sarcasm)

   2. I think NATO has lost $100 Gazillion of hardware! (See, I can pull figures out of my a** too. Hahaha.)

      Turns out Russia is continuing to dust off ancient equipment and sending it to the front. Russian commanders are lamenting on Twitter and Telegram about how the Russian gear is garbage and how much better Western kit is.

      Ukraine is advancing in the South and might be close to a breakthrough.

      Slava Ukraini!

      1. “Ukraine is advancing in the South and might be close to a breakthrough.”

         The Ukraine’s advances are measured in mere yards (yards per month that is). This is a rate where it will be sometime in the next decade before the Ukraine gets to the shores of the Sea of Azov.

         No breakthroughs are on the horizon for the Ukraine. The only thing the Ukraine is close to is defeat.

         Salo Ukraini!

         1. The Ukraine’s advances are measured in mere yards

            Graveyards that is.

            1. You win the wit prize for today. Hooray!

         2. So, you admit they’re advancing!

            1. Yes. They go forward. They die. The Russians kick them out of whatever village they moved into. The Ukropis come back. They die. The Russians kick them out of whatever village they moved into.

               Repeat ad infinitum until the Ukrainians are all dead. Then Zelensky and his gang retire to the Riviera.

               Cало Yкраїна! Cлава Говну!

            2. Russian losses: 8-1 ( versus Ukrainian losses)

               Russians using 152MM howitzers from 1944.

               Russia = losing

            3. I have seen no credible sources claim Russians are losing 8 times more people.

               I have seen analyses from independent non allied non government analysts using open data to conclude particularly in areas like Bakhmut that Ukraine is outgunned between 5 to 1 and 10 to 1, and is suffering much higher casualties.

            4. It would make more sense that Ukraine has lost many times the number of troops then Russia especially when considering that the country on the offensive most often takes greater casulties than the entrenched side, and therefore Ukraine’s failed counteroffensive has by most accounts lost thousands of men, the willing and not so willing.

            5. Ukraine needs better trolls.

               Сало Україні! До лайна Слава!

            6. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-russia-war-counteroffensive-progress-melitipol-tokmak-crimea-us-f16/

            7. I have no idea who you are replying to because all I see is ‘content unavailable’ but I can assure that there isn’t any Ukrainians here.
               Whatever useless troll you are replying to, is unlikely to even be a CIA or Pentagon troll.
               Most of these trolls are fluent in both Russian and Ukrainian and today concentrate their propaganda efforts on eastern front.

            8. The paradox with your screen handle and the statements you make is baffling.

            9. Friend ~ What means: Cало Yкраїна! Cлава Говну!

            10. Google translate is your friend.

            11. The traditional Ukrainian nationalist and Ukrainian Insurgent Army greeting or salute is (in English): “Glory to Ukraine! To the Heroes Glory!” Сало (in English Salo) is cured slabs of pork fat and a food that is esteemed by some Ukrainians. An Ukrainian cossack grew rhapsodic in explaining the glories of salo to me on a trip to Ukraine. In a video I saw years ago a Kiev resident walked by some passed out drunken Ukrainian nationalists and saluted them with the disparaging “Сало Україні!” I liked it. “Cлава Говну!” is “Glory to the shit!”. Говну means shit and Герой means hero. So “Героям слава!” is changed to “Cлава Говну!”

            12. Dead is dead regardless, hero or not. As it was said by someone long ago, “Only the dead have seen the end of war”.

         3. Yes please. More Salo and less useless Pentagon junk.

            There is nothing better in the world than Ukrainian sushi dinner. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ce095364ed4ff268442ffc575176ec3ab381d5b25b1a46bfd4e56f1b5b75b4cd.png

      2. Might be, could be, won’t be.

      3. What a fool and bullshitter you are today as if Russia has worthless old junk!!! Russia has the most advanced weapons on the planet TODAY. Russia’s unstoppable hypersonic missiles leave Ukrain no place to hide and their their nuclear weapons are 4000 times the explosive force of U.S. & NATO ones’s. I hope you are holding your breath for the BIG breakthrough BlueManGroup style. .

         1. Everything you just wrote is wrong.

   3. 1984 40 years later.

      1. 1984 was about 1948.

   4. You sure hit the nail on the head…..!!!!!!!!!!!

3. A stalemate exists only in their imagination. In reality, Ukrainian/NATO army is getting every day weaker while Russian army is getting every day stronger. Russia needs no offensive. Keeping pressure in all 1000 km front, bombarding Ukrainian logistics and wait until Ukrainian/NATO forces start to collapse, that is Russian strategy.

   1. Don’t ever forget that they outlasted Hitler and his Panzers and lost at least 25 Million and probably more. Ukraine is a walk in the park. It will be the US that blinks first.

      1. Tragically correct. A bit of trivia …. my late uncle Augie W. was one of the GI’s pictured with Russian soldiers on the Elbe River at the end of WWII.

      2. Just ask Blinken if he plans to blink…!!!!!

4. So, US mission accomplished then? IIRC, the Biden admin’s stated goal from the very beginning was to trap Russia in a prolonged stalemate. Inflict as much pain upon Russia for as long as possible, regardless of the cost to Ukraine.

   1. And it only cost the U.S. $75 billion!

   2. It won`t work Putins military has learned hard lessons , his infantry is dug in like tics on a coon hound , al the Russians have do is wait the Americans and their LACKEYS to run for the hills just like Vietnam / Afghanistan , the greatest military alliance the world has ever seen , is a toothless tiger when confronted by a country that can fight back .

      1. My impression. Time will continue beyond this war.
         Russia fighting a NATO-enhanced Ukraine (lacking US air support) to a relative standstill is noteworthy but win or lose in this particular war also doesn’t really seem to matter to the US itself. A loss may even be more useful for the warhawks in DC advocating for even more military funding and strengthening of NATO. Post-war Ukraine will likely also provide a lucrative US nation-building side project to slush a ton of money into.
         Meanwhile, those hard lessons that Russia’s and Ukraine’s militaries have had to suffer for provided a lot of valuable data to the US and everyone else watching as well. And the resources expended in this war likely have far greater economic impact on Russia than on the US.
         So, overall, it does seem like US mission accomplished on weakening Russia’s warmachine with an expendable proxy while garnering more domestic support for the US warmachine.

5. Breaking news (WaPo, 20:00 EDT 17 August):

   U.S. intelligence assessment says Ukraine’s counteroffensive will fail to achieve key objective

   Thwarted by minefields, Ukrainian forces won’t reach the city of Melitopol, a vital Russian transit hub, people familiar with the classified forecast told The Post. Should the U.S. assessment prove correct, it would mean that Kyiv won’t fulfill its principal aim of severing Russia’s land bridge to Crimea during this year’s push to retake occupied territory.

   https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/08/17/ukraine-counteroffensive-melitopol/?utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=wp_news_alert_revere&location=alert

   I know you’ll all be stunned and surprised.

   1. I like the part in the WaPo article where they predict that the Ukrainian army will end up on the outskirts of Melitopol:

      quote
      Key developments
      Ukraine’s forces, which are pushing toward Melitopol from the town of Robotyne more than 50 miles away, will remain several miles outside the city, U.S. officials predicted.
      unquote
      https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/08/18/russia-ukraine-war-news/

      “Sarge, are we there yet? We did gain another 10 meters today.”
      “Not quite yet, private. But just 80,000 meters to go. Steady on, be there any day now.”

      1. LOL. Well done!

      2. Yeah. I wonder what their definition of “several” is.

6. About the only person who doesn’t know they have lost is our senile president …
   And our buddy Donny J.

   1. You tankies are heavy with the Copium today. (Is it possible you’ve read/seen some real information about the Ukrainian gains?)

      1. Ukrain has not breach any of Russia’s 3 main defense lines but have taken some hamlets in the areas West of them.
         In the north they have evacuated a large city in anticipation it will fall within days so it appears Putin is moving up there.
         Where is Ukraine accomplishing a thing?
         No one is reporting gains.
         Do you have a credible source that is an outlier perhaps?

         1. Ukraine dosen`t have the infantry to do much of any thing , the shoe is on the other foot with this US / UK proxy war usually the yanks and the NATO LACKEYS have it all their own way regards air cover this time the Russians have it , the yank / Brits are bricking it in case one of their planes is shot down , American / NATO pilots love nothing better than safely flying around the skies bombing civilians it`s what they do best , but not this time .

            1. Amen!

         2. You’re a great military strategist. (Just like your crush Putin!) Hahaha.

            1. Ad hominens?
               Typical troll reply.

      2. i am assuming that you are paid by the word?

         1. Nope. Just mocking you imbecile, Putin fan-boys.

      3. I see you made another visit to antiwar.com without reading any articles at antiwar.com. Did you see where the US knew the Ukrainian counteroffensive wouldn’t be successful without air superiority and how they, the US, wouldn’t do a counteroffensive themselves without air superiority? But they were basing the Ukrainian counteroffensive being successful on HOPE and COURAGE? Again, try reading some articles when you visit.

         1. Try getting some outside info before YOU visit.

            1. This place is getting shit from the WSJ and WAPO that says the same thing. It can’t get any more “outside” than that.

            2. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-russia-war-counteroffensive-progress-melitipol-tokmak-crimea-us-f16/

            3. So, the MSM is no longer in lockstep with each other. And you think you proved something? Not.

            4. Tankies get ALL their info from the Russian MOD.

            5. I don’t understand gibberish. Please translate.

            6. Fixed.

            7. WSJ and WAPO aren’t the Russian MOD The US intelligence isn’t the Russian MOD. Congresspeople who get briefed by the Pentagon aren’t the Russian MOD. The Ukrainian Platoon Commander who told us they are “clearing the minefields with bodies” isn’t part of the Russian MOD.

      4. I haven’t met many people here who believe in communism. More often, they’re americans with legitimate criticisms of the american foreign policy.

         Nobody here likes to see america losing, or to see Ukrainians killed. That’s the basis of why we believe what we believe.

         But apparently “rational thinkers” don’t need to contend with actual people with actual opinions. Slurs and strawmen are the go to tactics of “rational thinkers” like yourself. After all, nuance is beneath the god like intellect of celestial beings such as yourself.

         1. That was eloquently put. I’m not blind to Ukrainian losses. It’s the pro-Putin tankie BS that made me start commenting here. If you’re part of that…

            1. That’s going to be a difficult claim to defend, given that you accused someone of being a tankie because he said “About the only person who doesn’t know they have lost is our senile president …
               And our buddy Donny J.”

               Joe Biden refuses to recognize that Ukraine has no prospects of regaining Crimea or the majority of Donbas, and continuing to fund the war will not significantly alter the boundary, but will result in tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian lives lost. And for this criticism you’ve jumped to the ridiculous conclusion that he’s a “tankie” and that he’s “pro-putin”, for suggesting the option that minimizes Ukrainian deaths is best.

         2. Appropriate and accurate “monikers” are never a slur or strawman argument.

            You need to face facts: I didn’t start the war and the Ukrainians are deciding what they need to do to destroy the invader. I’m supporting them like you tankies are supporting the invaders.

            1. Show me they’re appropriate or accurate, and I’ll believe they’re not slurs and strawmen. You have yet to give any evidence that ZaSu wants Ukrainians dead or like Putin and everything (or even anything) that he’s done. In fact, you called him a tankie for just the opposite, that he suggested that Joe Biden is Senile (which he is) and is pursuing a course of action that will not significantly increase the land held by Ukraine, and will certainly never result in Ukraine controlling Crimea, their stated goal, and will increase the number of Ukrainian dead.

               Next, you’re delusional if you think you’re supporting Ukrainians. You’re not doing a damn thing. You’re sitting online arguing with strangers about a foreign policy you have no control over. You aren’t sending them guns or ammo or food or anything.

               Nor is anyone here “supporting the invaders”. This is again your own delusional fantasy. Not only is none of us supporting Russia or the Russian invasion, none of us are even speaking positively of it. You replied to a criticism of Joe Biden being senile as the critic being “tankie”. You are so completely disconnected from the actual conversation going on, it’s like you’re talking to a brick wall.

            2. Tankies and MAGA-items often have similar views. They both love Putin and have negative opinions of America’s involvement abroad. (Even if America is doing the right thing — as we are in Ukraine.)

               I think you should review many of the comments on this site. There are MANY who cheer-on the Russian destruction of Ukraine and the Chinese threats towards Taiwan.

               Anyone who believes the Russians are in-the-right with their invasion is wrong. Anyone who dismisses their aggression as warranted is a tankie. If my approach bothers you, you can certainly block me like the rest of the cowards on this site. Still friends?

            3. I blocked that fella a month ago. He’s hopeless …….

   2. I am not a particularly religious person. I sincerely hope that DJT gets it stuck up his heinie by our justice system.l

      1. Then your credibilty has lessened in my eyes.
         You are arguing for facism of the sort Progressives were enamored with during WW1 and locked up political opponents who opposed that war.
         This site’s Bourne’s career in academia was destroyed because of his isolationist views and here you are arguing for the same sort of political climate to return.

7. I have no use for Zelensky; but in this I feel for him – had we not pressured him in April 2022 to reject all negotiations, Ukraine would be far better off, and we wouldn’t now be pressuring him into holding negotiations. Once a peace treaty is signed, and the average Ukrainian realizes that their situation is far worse than it would have been had they negotiated a year ago, I expect public sentiment to swing strongly against the current government.

   1. The man is enriching himself while his youth are chopped up and his country is laid waste. He is violating his first priority as a leader – to protect his people from harm.
      Unless you’re advocating that he is mentally retarded, he bears full responsibility for his decision to do as Biden and Johnson directed. The rest is history.

      1. well he did star in a video skit where he played the piano with his penis so maybe he actually is retarded

         1. LOL

   2. Let’s face it, Javy. The Ukie guvvmint has got SOMETHING on ByeDone (not to mention his criminal son) in order for the former to pour billions into Ukrainazia.
      This on ABC News: the average family spent SEVEN HUNDRED DOLLARS more on goods and services in July 2023 than they did in July 2021.
      Hope you get fed at school, Junior.

8. This conflict which could have and should have been avoided was brought about by the US in their never ending hatred for Russia and a desire to shape the political and economic situation in a way that would help American financial interests. the feeding of the MIC a group that owns and feeds the corrupt,venal politicians that vote on these matters is essential for graft.

   1. Agree 100%.

9. “Congressional Ukraine Caucus Co-Chair Says War May Not Be ‘Winnable’ – Rep. Andy Harris (R-MD), who’s also a member of the Freedom Caucus, says the US should pressure Zelensky to pursue peace talks”

   That horse has left the barn. Zelensky should have held peace talks 300,000 to 400,000 dead Ukrainian soldiers ago. What could have been in February of 2022 is now no longer possible.

   The Ukrainian army will collapse in the coming months and an unconditional cessation of hostilities will occur. Russia will tell Zelensky what the terms are!

   1. Looks like he’s constructing a post-war fallback narrative for the inevitable collapse allowing them to blame it on Zelensky’s intransigeance.

   2. Thanks for the good comment. You make good comments consistently. It’s a pleasure to read them.

   3. Not only has the horse left the barn, the barn door is closed and locked, and the horse is a Derby winner, meaning pretty fast on its feet.

10. I know nothing about fighting battles so forgive me for asking this nagging question. Is it a good idea to penetrate the Russians all the way across 50 miles deep? Wouldn’t the Ukrainians find themselves surrounded by the Russian army by 50 miles on all sides? It seems like this is exactly where the Russians would want the Ukrainians? No? I’m the stupid one here and this is a solid military plan? (Sarcasm)

    1. Once again the Battle of Kursk of WW2 presents a little insight. On the Southern front of that battle, the Germans succeeded in creating a fairly narrow but powerful breakthrough towards Oboyan, halfway to Kursk. Much has been made of the tank battle at Prokohrovka but most experts credit the eventual German defeat to persistent but costly Soviet tank-attacks on the Western flank of the breakthrough.

       To protect that breakthrough from attacks from the East and to generally support the main thrust the Germans then launched a second parallel thrust (Army Kempf) which was briefly dangerous for the Soviets but was soon stopped by fresh Soviet armies held in reserve.

       So yes, if the Ukrainian army succeeds in a significant breakthrough towards Melitopol, it must simultaneously weaken its tip by removing soldiers and tanks to parry Russian attacks on its sides.

    2. capture the flag

11. Not a big fan of GOP Republicans. However, when one like Rep. Andy Harris (R-MD) displays moments of reason. I then have a tendency to pay attention. With statements like this. “Is this more a stalemate? Should we be realistic about it? I think we probably should,” Harris said at a town hall on Tuesday night, according to POLITICO. Discussing the Ukrainian counteroffensive, Harris said, “I’ll be blunt, it’s failed.” (excerpt) If true then get to the negotiating table.

12. That Caucus is going to have one less member real quick.

    1. I doubt it. Some of them have already made noises that sound a bit skeptical of the administration’s Ukraine policy and the associated expense. And what that bunch cares about more than anything is promoting right-wing social conservatism — anti-abortion, anti-LGBT, anti-immigration, anti-Affordable Care, etc. Harris has probably never stepped even a little bit out of line on those issues.

       1. Oh, I meant the Ukraine Caucus, not the Freedom Caucus. I looked up the members of the former, and it appears to have an equal number of Dems (who probably follow the White House blindly), and I recognize a couple of Republicans who may be “Rinos”, such as Brian FitzPatrick, the son of my former Congressman Mike F., a neolib Repug if there ever was one. Heck, I know the Freedom Caucus is against our Uke policy, but not always for all the right reasons.

          1. OK, got it. I misunderstood.

             The weird mix on “Freedom Caucus” you describe is a perfect example of the way the scheming opportunists — the Brits would probably call them “chancers”— organize around any issues they think will play well with their base, either because the base cares about the issues or because the base has been conditioned to hate the opposition so they adopt the appropriate views. They’ll fight like hell over gay marriage or some other social issue, or pretend to, but they seldom have serious fights over the “defense” budget.

13. LOL The war in Ukraine is not a “stalemate”. The Russians are using a defensive strategy to crush the Uke-Nazis. Of course, no side actually wins a war but Russia is losing far, far less than Ukraine right now. In due course, Russia will crush what remains of the Ukrainian Army and give peace demands.

14. How can you make $24 Billion into $30 Billion? Easy. In that $24 Billion, they’re going to find another $6 Billion in “accounting errors” to “line their wallets.” I wish I was half as good in accounting as Biden. (Scam Conspiracy Theory Sarcasm)

    1. I was waiting’ for it! 😁

    2. You know, if you’re going to throw around those criticisms, you might first begin by understanding what it is you’re actually saying.

       The US didn’t “realize” that they “forgot” to spend a boatload of money, nor was there anything shady about the accounting. There was no money coming out of a secret bank account they forgot to tell us about.

       The Biden Admin was authorized to give Ukraine equipment valued at a certain amount. At first, they accounted the value of the equipment as “cost to replace”. Then, when they realized they could send a whole lot more, they began accounting it as “depreciated value”.

       I’m sure every year you report on your taxes depreciation on the value of your home, and nobody is claiming you’re robbing society at large or the bank or something.

       I don’t think US policy on this war is any good. But the arguments we make against it should be at least honest.

       1. Wait!? Did the Biden Admin get a tax refund? Fantastic. I’m jealous. You’re much smarter than me. Since you’re an expert, can you send me a new lap-a-top after you depreciate my 2014 lap-a-top? It still works but not as good since Wars R Us hacked it. …Why? …We got into an argument. I told him I was an idiot but he wouldn’t believe me without doing a lie detector test on my lap-a-top… Anyway, please let me know when to expect it. I live in a rough neighborhood. They don’t understand the value of depreciation if you know wat I’m sayin. (Sarcasm)

15. Harris does not have the courage to be honest and say what he thinks should be done.
    A responsible official who says he is not sure if the war is winnable should do the only thing that makes sense, sit down and negotiate a settlement.
    Going on killing more people and putting the country in ruins is a war crime. A man with a conscience would do all he can to stop it. He is a hypocrite playing both sides of the game. Not a thought of morality, only money considerations, not a thought of the loss and waste of lives. But they are not American lives, they cost no money and don’t cut profits.

16. Well, SOMEONE’S making sense.
    Hard to believe.

17. He also made it clear: no non-military aid to Ukraine. The mess there is for them to clean up.

18. This war was not “winnable” from the beginning, nor was it meant to be, winning is irrelevant. The money keeps changing hands no matter who’s winning, in fact winning can be detrimental, win and the con could be over before a new mark’s in the queue.

    1. Amen!

    2. “winning is irrelevant” – maybe it was irrelevant in Afghanistan but not here. It could be winnable if Russian economy collapsed under the pressure of the sanctions. The turning point was the summer 2022 when it became clear that Russia can cope with the economic problems. The defeat in this war would be catastrophic for NATO if Russia remains inflexible about the goals announced by Putin in February 2022.

       1. The sanctions didn’t fail because of Russia’s “coping” ability, they failed because they were ill-conceived. They were predicated upon on a critical mass of non-western countries joining the sanctions and the very “unprecedented” construction of the sanctions guaranteed they would not get that critical mass, ntm blow back from 30 years of militarist intervention was simmering.

          On the global stage NATO has already lost this war.

19. “War May Not Be ‘Winnable’”

    Just how dense are these people?

    1. Lead dense ……

20. If it were winnable, that means it would end. Can’t have that.

21. Any discontinuation of this war is pre-approved. Otherwise, his voice is just another penny in the jar.

22. So is Macron going to push the dynamite plunger in West Africa? If you think Libya was bad, wait till this causes Nigeria to explode.

23. “Bill Kristol Leads Charge to Make Republicans Think ‘Right’ on Ukraine,” (Kelley Vlahos, Antiwar) Republicans can’t think for themselves?

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