Ukrainian police in Kyiv are preparing to evict Orthodox priests who are refusing to leave a historic monastery complex known as the Pechersk Lavra or the Monastery of the Caves.
The effort is part of a broad crackdown on the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (UOC) launched by the government of Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. The UOC has historic links to Russia but is the largest church in Ukraine, having more parishes than the similarly named Orthodox Church of Ukraine (OCU), which has no affiliation with Moscow.
In the wake of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the UOC denounced the war and cut ties with Moscow, but the steps were not enough for Zelensky. Some UOC priests have been accused of collaborating with Russian troops, and now many are facing sanctions, criminal charges, and eviction.
The 500 UOC priests, nuns, and theologians living in the Pechersk Lavra have been given until Wednesday to leave the monastery, but they say they aren’t going anywhere. “I won’t leave unless I am forced to,” Simeon, a young monk, told The Times of London.
Simeon said the police said they wouldn’t use force to evict the priests, but it’s not clear what will happen when the deadline comes, and they haven’t left. Police and members of the Ukrainian Culture Ministry have been standing guard outside of the Pechersk Lavra for a week to keep an eye on what some people leaving the monastery are taking out.
What does he even want with it? It’s complex of churches, monasteries, caves with even more monks buried… Where is the logic of banning the monks? It certainly won’t win him any brownie points with population of which majority is religious? I’m sure in future it would be an issue such valuable place is accessible to everyone, for free, every day – instead of having exorbitant entrance fee, but still?
The religion split into the Ukrainian Orthodox Church vs. the Orthodox Church of Ukraine about five years ago. The heads of the two churches have been split along Russian and Ukrainian political lines. It’s now a matter of the newer coalition (Ukrainian leaning) taking the monastery over for themselves or allowing the monks to stay as long as they change allegiance.
It does not shock me. Zelenski hates Christianity, but can put on a good show for Pope, as he depends on Catholics of Western Ukraine. This type of intollerance is not new.
What iis new is his brazen attack on the largest Christian denomination of Ukraine, Ukrainian Orthodox, linked to Russian Orthodox. The historic monastery has been occupied by monks for over 400 years. Having a war with Russia has nothing to do with religion — or at keast until Zelenski made itvan issue, At every step andcever tur he does not fail to be souteful human being. And his lionizing is beyond my comregension. Why would Ujrainian men fight for a bigot who is destroying theirv relugion.
There is an interesting ohenomena at work for a while now in the post-midern West. Plight of Christians is not to be talked about. There is noboutrage over targetted killings of Christisns. When Cootic Church in Egypt was attacked, it was Egyptian government that took military action against terrorist. In Europe and US barely a clld mention. Not even human sympathy — that is due to any victim of violence regardless of religion, itvwas Assad’s army in Syria that was fighting to protect vulerable small Christian communities, Colkective West coukd not care less. Today in Israel there is a record number of abuse of Christians, especialky clergy, They are daiky having to endure being spat on. Ukraine is a chilling example. Religion myst be protected. Monks and nuns must be protected. Zelenski cares more about monks taking with them a cross or a bible — while being tone deaf to the outrage of violating the santctity of the place.
It apoears that such provikations have a ourpose. It is saying to Russia that negotiations are futile. Therefore.you Russia will never get a negotiated solution. As we oile on ine outrage after another — all the time blaming Russia for reacting, This is dangerous. When a oresident in the middle of war and is brutally attacking church the majority of oopulatiin folliws — there is a fantasy afoot. Who is he trying to please?
I think this might prove a big mistake.
Next time, wait for your roller coaster ride to end before typing the comment.
Your Kremlin BS propaganda as usual.
Our freedom loving Ukrainian Nazis at work suppressing religious freedom…
When you have The head of the Russian Orthodox Church, Patriarch, Kirill, who worked for the KGB in the 1970s and openly supporting Putin’s invasion of Ukraine. How’s that for a religious figure “what would Jesus do?” Well, according to him, Jesus would’ve supported Putin’s invasion.
He has been using his Orthodox network in Ukraine to influence church going Russian/Ukrainians and persuading many others to work as Russian collaborators. There’s been an abuse of power within the Russian Orthodox Church as they failed to separate church and state.
But anyways, I don’t see you crying when Putin bans free speech in Russia, even within the church.
A post riddled with typical American arrogance and assumptions about the outside world.
First of all, the head of the Orthodox Church is Christ, not the Patriarch. The Orthodox Church is not Roman Catholicism lite, the Moscow Patriarch may be an ecclesiastical head but he is not God and he does not have final say on spiritual matters. There are orthodox priests and laity who have sympathy for Russia but are not happy with Patriarch Kiril using his power to cheerlead Putin’s war. But everyone outside the US is totally formless right?
On top of that, the UOC has a different ecclesiastical structure, it’s in the name. Their head metropolitian or archbishop may answer to Kiril, but he also has some independence of his own, otherwise there would be no UOC in the first place. And actually, the MP has been unusually lax giving freedom to other jurisdictions – about a century ago, even despite all the problems, autonomy was given to the Finns.
All the comments about the KGB could equally be leveled against the fake schismatic church the Ukrainians (read: the state department) have created with the Ecumenical Patriarch – look up Athenagoras and the CIA. But since that’s the CIA and they’re our guys, that’s based then that they’re also trying to infiltrate local politics, right?
I mean anyone who has read literally anything about the asceticism of orthodox monks will find it completely laughable they are in active coordination with Russian government, no doubt helping give Putin troop movements after a few days of starving themselves and chanting the Jesus prayer. Their spiritual lives are taken so serious it would probably cause most people’s head to explode, the steps they take to remove vanity.
Have monks helped out in secular matters? Yeah, sometimes. Some allied troops were smuggled out dressed as monks on Mt Athos during Nazi occupation. But the idea that the 400 year old plus Kiev cave monks, who have existed long before the modern Ukrainian state or nation-people, need to be removed as a serious threat to National security? Lol.
Great insight and understanding!!!!
Well said and Julio is a Russian hating moron.
And you are an idiot.
Your filibuster rebuttal is appreciated but does not change the reality on the ground. Russia is using its religious influence over Ukraine in favor of the Kremlin. Freedom of religion is one thing, but when Religious figures and key followers are being used as foreign agents, that’s a matter of national security.
While the Putin oligarchy has clearly co-opted Orthodox institutions within Russia and is using that influence to promote its imperialist project in Ukraine, it’s also quite likely that the Ukrainian regime is settling scores above and beyond “national security” versus Russia. Attempts to “de-Russianize” Orthodox institutions in Ukraine started well before the invasion.
A racist, Russian hating ignoramus is Little Julio!
You got to the racist conclusion pretty quick.
What an idiot.
Perhaps ZelBoy can use British-supplied depleted uranium to flush them out.
I mean, really…WTF?
I worry about the 400 year old monasteries. No telling what the Azov Battalion will do to extract them.
They will not be the ones to extract them, there are much better forces available to do this job – but don’t worry too much the Ukrainians will leave the monasteries in no worse state than the Russians do Bakhmut.
Boom!!!!!!!!!!!
Since when is Bakhmut a sacred place or UNESCO World heritage? Just so I understand the comparison…
Since when was it OK to level cities with the ground, just because they were not on UNESCO’s world heritage list – just asking so I can understand the humanity of your stance…
I absolutely never said that was ok, perhaps read it again… But certain sites shall be protected even throughout the war, that was historically respected by most nations, albeit of course not always. After WWII devastation that affected also the cultural heritage and places of worship, that was the idea behind 1954 Hague convention for Protection of cultural property, but it’s also in addendum to Geneva conventions. Perhaps it is surprising to you that not every building is of same value to humanity, but that is the case.
I know this, and I also strongly expect that the monasteries will be left unharmed – I do however find the worrying about UNESCO world heritage sites a bit much when we have the Russians flattening entire cities ostentatiously to save their inhabitants.
Since Roman Empire levelled Carthage with the ground, Aleksander the great burned Aleksanderia in Egypt and USA levelled Dresden in Germany, Hiroshima, Nagasaki in Japan and Faloja in Iraq … with the ground
The whole history of western countries..
You might need to study little more .
Author Kurt Vonnegut was a POW at Dresden when we fire bombed the city, destroying beautiful buildings. He survived, as you probably know, in the meat locker of the slaughterhouse he was laboring in as a POW doing forced labor. When he emerged, he said, “they had burned down the whole damn town”. The town had no war materials. The action was an act of terrorism.
I have studied these and if you had you would know that we have arrived at the conclusion after WWI and particular WWII that this was no longer acceptable – but you perhaps missed that part.
Since it was OK to level homes in the Donbas, over a period of 8 years, killing 14,000 Ukraine citizens…………..
You know this statement is BS and yet you keep repeating it.
Levelling homes can happen, it is not OK and it was reported – the 14.000 dead were on both sides and the idea that this was imposed by the Ukrainians on a different nation as part of an attempt to save Ukrainian speakers is just not supported by any evidence – it was a civil conflict that would never have amounted to war if not for Russian meddling – this has been admitted by some of the Russians doing the actual meddling.
Strawman or What!!!
What Russia (or Ukraine) does on the battlefield in NO WAY justifies Zelenskyy denying Ukrainians the right to religious freedom.
You are absolutely right it would not justify Zelenskyy denying Ukrainians the right to religious freedom – but since Zelenskyy is not doing that it is you engaging in a Strawman argument here.
So Zelenskyy proposing to bar the Russian Orthodox church is not him denying Ukrainians religious freedom?
Yes or no?
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/02/world/europe/zelensky-ukraine-orthodox-church.html
Clearly no – as in the people of Ukraine can believe in whatever they want – what Zelenskyy has barred was a specific church organization from operating in Ukraine – we have had Muslims in Denmark for a very long time before there was an organized ‘church’ for them to ‘work’ from.
STRAWMAN!!!
You typed that Zelenskyy was NOT denying Ukrainians religious freedoms.
Yet, we know for a fact that he was.
And I posted the link above showing that.
Now I am going to ask you again…has Zelenskyy tried to restrict religious freedom in Ukraine?
Yes or no?
(and try to actually answer the question and not post a strawman, this time.).
So you also do not know what a strawman argument is – good to know!
Zelenskyy is not denying Ukrainians religious freedom – if he was then he would have decreed that it was forbidden to be Russian Orthodox – he did not, what he did do was to restrict the organization behind the Russian Orthodox church to work in Ukraine – which is a different matter.
So again the answer is No
No Zelenskyy did not deny the Ukrainians religious freedom, that was the question and that is what I answered. And unless you have sources demonstrating that people are being jailed for their faith alone or there is a law against having a particular faith, you have not even argued that this is what he has done.
Another strawman with an ad hominem included!!!
🙄
And yes, I know EXACTLY what a strawman argument is.
‘The straw man fallacy avoids the opponent’s actual argument and instead argues against an inaccurate caricature of it.’
https://www.grammarly.com/blog/straw-man-fallacy/
Which is EXACTLY what you keep doing.
So, for the record, you believe that Zelensky trying to limit the Russian Orthodox Church is NOT Zelenskyy trying to limit religious freedom in Ukraine!!!
🤣🤣🤣
Okaaaaaaaaaaay.
So either you do not understand common phrases or you are a troll.
I am going with the second one.
And since I try not to waste time on trolls?
We are done here.
Have a nice day.
I keep answering the question asked – I do not propose, suggest or imply that you have made a different point or taken a different stance (hence no strawman). Your first comment in this sub thread was:
You have now changed the subject to:
Which is a different proposal all together.
Yes Zelenskyy is trying to limit Russian Orthodox Church, but that is not at all the same as:
Zelenskyy denying Ukrainians the right to religious freedom.
So no strawman, but you changing the topic from denying religious freedom to limit the Russian Orthodox Church.
Is it that you do not understand the difference?
Bakhmut was a majority — a vast majority — Russian city prior to conflict. What happened to them in Zelenski’s Ukrainr? For starters, Ukraine army used people’s back yards to dig trenches, farmland to build bunkers.
Can we have a civilised conversation about the treatment of not just Russian ethnic minorities, but to all Russian speaking UKRAINIANS of Christian zOrthodox Church? Are they to die in symbolic stands where they are nothing but a dusposable flesh as their leader disrespects their religion?
Do we have to repeat the depraities of this regime towards population of ”wrong” religion?
Such depravities are aplenty in this world unfortunatelly. But seldom do you have a situation where actually there is a power that can do something about it,. NATO naturally welcomes this depravity, Why would they care? Let Russians and Ukrainians kill each other. Why not throw in some Poles? Such a nice way to get some lebensraum.
Wouldn’t it be nice if there sre some grown ups to end the sadistic treatment of occupied Palestinian people? Perfumed princess in Middle East are not likely to exert themselves.
Ukraine is a bizzareland today. a place where a dialect of a minority is pushed as official language. And where it is acceptable to attack monasteries by police. It is OK to “recycle” books written by wring authors. It is OK to “nationslize” businesses if a person was ofvwrong nationality or did not sufficiently bribe nany an outstreched hand,
The regime emwill implode. As for Russia, we are to judge thheir behaviour by what Zelenski said? We are taking for granted that Russians are having heavy casualties. In fact, Russia is conducting this operstion with tge original strength of 150,000-200,000 people. The newly called in reserves amounting to more than iriginally planned 300,000 — are still out of the country in tge east, south and north. The purpose for such a force is unknown.
I trully wish we could do more to get a more objective assessment. Daily review of CNN, BBC, and most Western media reads like a boiler plate narrative. It is dangerous to have faith in Ukrsinian cause without reflecting on its inherently very, very troubling situation.
Which makes the way the Russians try to save the citizens all the more absurd – what happened to them was demonstrably not Zelenskyy’s Ukraine – Zelenskyy managed to lower the number of civilian victims of the conflict dramatically, and you know this, so what actually happened to them was that a civilian conflict was blown into a civil war by Russian intervention:
We ought to be able to have a civilized conversation, whether the Russian speaking Ukrainians of Christian Orthodox Church are to die in symbolic stands or used by Putin as cannon fodder is mostly up to them as in they can put down their arms and surrender – the Ukrainians neither kill them nor even try to reeducate them as opposed to what the Russians intend for the Ukrainians should they lose.
There is no policy of the current Ukrainian government towards people of the Wrong religion – there is a policy towards the religious organization praising Putin’s SMO – the people whishing to belong to that church are free to do so with no consequences for them personally.
Seeing as there is no policy aimed at the followers of one church, you are here promoting doing something about a non problem. The countries supporting Ukraine are doing so not to have Ukrainians killing Russians but ultimately to prevent war of territorial conquest.
It would be really nice, though it probably would have to be achieved not through military intervention – perhaps when Putin has been put back in his box the unfairness of that situation will be so self evident that more countries will apply pressure to change things – if Putin is not put back in his box then you can expect more cases of the Palestinian situation to crop up.
Again you are as far as I can see just misinformed Ukrainian is not a minority language in Ukraine, it is a minority language in only 3 oblasts (Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk). https://theconversation.com/why-many-ukrainians-speak-russian-as-their-first-language-190856
They have not attacked any yet as far as I know, and it is fair in any country for the police to demand to search a monastery provided they have the correct paperwork.
Not a thing that was OK in Ukraine either – not before the SMO – to the extend it is happening after, the parallels should tell you that this is how even democracies have to act when attacked.
No we are not taking the words of the Ukrainians for almost anything, we are taking the words of the Russians themselves – they repeatedly admit to many of these things – Prigozhin most recently.
You can get more objective sources than CNN or BBC – but most people are not willing to pay for (or spend time reading it and there by pay indirectly) so few news organizations are willing to spend the money to cover the conflict.