Russia announced on Wednesday that it is pulling out of areas in the southern Ukrainian region of Kherson on the west bank of the Dnieper River, which includes the city of Kherson.
Russia Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu announced the move in a meeting with Gen. Sergey Suroviki, who was recently appointed as the commander of Russian forces in Ukraine.
Surovki reported to Shoigu that keeping troops on the west bank of the Dnieper River wasn’t worth the risk over claims that Ukraine could blow up the Kakhovka dam, which would cause major flooding in the region, leaving troops isolated. Russia recently accused Ukraine of shelling the dam using US-provided HIMARS rocket systems.
“Start withdrawing the troops and take all measures to ensure the safe relocation of the personnel, armaments and hardware behind the Dnieper,” Shoigu told Surovki, according to the Russian news agency TASS.
Russia had been evacuating civilians from the region for weeks, and Shoigu said the full withdrawal was to protect Russian troops as well as civilians. “For us, the life and health of Russian servicemen is always a priority. We must also take into account the threat for the civilian population,” he said.
The withdrawal marks a significant pullback of Russian forces from a region that Russian President Vladimir Putin recently annexed and declared was now part of Russia. Ukrainian officials are still skeptical that Russia is fully withdrawing from the area.
Mykhailo Podolyak, an advisor to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, said that it was too early to confirm if Russia was pulling out. “Until the Ukrainian flag is flying over Kherson, it makes no sense to talk about a Russian withdrawal,” he said.
According to some media reports, a Russian withdrawal from Kherson could potentially open the door to diplomacy. TASS reported this week, citing a report in the Italian newspaper La Repubblica, that the US and NATO might think peace talks are possible if Ukraine retakes Kherson.
On Wednesday, unnamed US and Western officials told NBC News that the winter might provide an opportunity for a diplomatic solution in Ukraine. The officials said that if Ukraine takes Kherson, it could put the government of Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky in “a better position to negotiate.”
Also on Wednesday, Russia reaffirmed that it’s open to negotiations. “We are still open to negotiations. We have never refused to have them. We are ready to negotiate, of course, taking into account the realities that are emerging at the moment,” said Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova.
“Welcome to the Cauldron”
It looks like diplomacy could do some good, I hope…
Diplomacy is always welcome, but if the Bucha treatment is meted out by Ukraine again, the Russians will be back.
Let’s see some DIPLOMACY…
very telling that ukraine govt would blow up their own dam, ruining countless ukrainian lives, just to thumb their nose at russia. “take THAT russia, that’ll teach ’em”
The population in those regions is mostly pro-Russian. That is why Russia evacuates the civilians and Ukraine uses them as the shield.
yes
Have you bothered to read the demographics in all regions of Ukraine?
Russian majority and pro russian is only in Crimea.
Cite?
In terms of defense, the west bank of the Dnipro river was never a good place for Russia to be. Removing the civilians was the first step in moving the Oblast capital to the east side of the river. Now we see if Ukraine will allow the troops to withdraw peacefully. Nah. If I know Zelensky, he’s going to try to turn this into a rout. But he might have better luck trying to corner a badger.
In terms of defense, it would be much better to push Ukrainian army, while it wasn’t yet so much reenforced by NATO, further to the west and out of Nikolaev and Odessa oblasts. With less than 200K, which Russia sent to Ukraine, it was impossible. So, the war will continue until Russia is ready to make a real war effort and crash the enemy.
In your dreams. Russia can only crash Ukraine with nukes. Right now the russian inept army can only defend and or move backwards. Ukraine will continue slowly retaking land. But you are allowed to continue cheerleading for Putin.
You know, I feel like we are having a very frank conversation, exploring many aspects….
We are.
Among yourselves….
To me, the plausible assumption remains that Putin is using the “partial mobilization” troops to set up a defensible line of control encompassing LPR, DPR, and possibly a land corridor connecting them to Crimea, while the troops forward of that area retreat (as slowly and stubbornly as they can manage) toward that line of control.
Once that’s done — with Russia now being at the short end of its supply lines and in the defensive with interior lines, while the Ukrainians are having to rebuild/maintain logistics (vulnerable to Russian air and missile attack) across the Kherson and Zaporizhia oblasts to maintain offensive/advance — he can declare a “victory” and unilateral ceasefire (reversible, with Russian forces now enjoying an advantage, if the Ukrainian regime refuses to settle for its own “victory”).
Russian troops are retreating only in Kherson oblast. In Donetsk oblast, NATO is retreating. The decision to retreat from the right bank to the left was made because American artillery was successful in damaging the dam above Kherson. So, there is a danger of the flood. If the dam is destroyed, the supply for Russian troops on the right bank would be very difficult. Thats why they decided to retreat. Everywhere else it is either a standstill or Russians are advancing. By the way, those fresh mobilized 300K will be ready to fight in a couple of weeks.
Well, like I said, I think Putin’s goal is to secure the Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics. So it would make sense for Russian troops to be on the offensive in Donetsk, so that the troops retreating from Kherson and most of Zaporizhia can be concentrated — with that 300k “surge” — in a defensible position.
That’s assuming that Putin and the other decision-makers in the Russian regime are rational and determined to accomplish realistic objectives instead of fantasizing about taking Odessa, “disarming and de-Nazifying” (aka regime-changing) Ukraine, etc.
From the beginning of this war I’ve assumed that Putin et al. are not idiots and therefore are going to adapt to the reality that the closest thing to a “win” available to them is securing LPR/DPR/land corridor to Crimea, and declaring “victory” and a unilateral (but conditional) ceasefire.
But maybe you’re right and they WILL act like drunks at the roulette wheel and put everything they’ve got on 17.
I’ve seen obnoxious drunks at the roulette wheel win big,
So have I.
But my favorite roulette story involves an obnoxious drunk who lost a bunch of money.
My (then) wife and I were at Sam’s Town casino in Tunica, playing roulette (worst house edge of any table game, but I love it and even wrote a book on it) when this loud drunk roared over to the table. He was stereotypical ’70s — open shirt, hairy chest, gold chains — even though this was the ’90s, and insulting to everyone. The pit boss stood behind him and gave all of us a “just wait a minute” signal, and he dropped at least $3,000 in five minutes, then went roaring off somewhere else.
As soon as he was gone, the pit boss came over and comped everyone at the table two meals at the casino restaurant (Corky’s Barbecue, one of my favorites). He explained that the guy had just finished losing $5k in five minutes at blackjack and they wanted his money and knew he wouldn’t bother us for long. So on top of winning $600 or so, my wife and I both got dinner and breakfast out of the deal. Good times.
Great story. In addition to your hobby here, you’re a helluva raconteur!
Glad you’re here 😉
Likewise!
Correct. This was discussed in Moon of Alabama.
Sigh, lets give it another couple of months maybe the situation will become clearer. Lot more dead Russians but.. oh well.
Sure. “Oh well”. Your flippancy about people getting killed is disgusting. So, you think the killing will only involve Russian soldiers?
Oh it is terrible all right. I almost feel sorry for those poor mobniks sent to the front with inadequate weapons and training . Their special military operation will be at least short. It is immoral to continue a war that you cannot win.
Yes, those “poor mobniks” as you call them are definitely not well trained but are surely given powerfull weapons from NATO to fight with….and one way ticket to frontlines 😞
You dont say that when Putin lovers here use the same language against Ukrainians. Which is ALL the time. Heck, i’ve seen you liking a few.
You are full of sh*t. I NEVER cheer on death. That would be you, who wants the war to go on. In fact, I recently replied negatively to another person’s comment that said he wanted Ukraine turned to dust which YOU read and commented positively to my comment. Once again, you’re an idiot.
“The decision to retreat from the right bank to the left was made because American artillery was successful in damaging the dam above Kherson.”
Exactly.
Of course Russian forces had to withdraw from Kherson or they would face defeat. Another Putin defeat.
In your dreams.
This makes sense to me. Zelensky is sure to declare “victory” if the Russians retreat to the east side of the Dnipro river. But I’m not so sure that he’ll settle for a unilateral ceasefire.
Yeah right, like Russia let the Folks in Mariupol retreat?
It’s war and to allow the retreat of soldiers who will move to fight Ukraine from a different location? No a good idea.
Unless they drop their guns and go back to Russia, they are still combatants.
Azov did not attempt to retreat from Mariupol, and I wasn’t kidding about taking on a cornered badger. If Ukraine rushes in, the cost will be very high.
Because that was their home.
Russia didnt have to bombard them for weeks.
Russia is paying the price for not employing enough forces. For many people it was clear from the beginning that NATO wouldn’t stay aside. On the other hand, the military situation in Ukraine is no more important for Kremlin than the economic situation in Russia.
Stop whining, win or don’t win but don’t try and say you weren’t really trying. That is just lame.
Weren’t you one of those here denying that Russia was having or about to have an economic crisis?
Good to see you are evolving.
What a humiliation. The Romanovs were ousted for similar reasons. You can’t start wars and not finish them.
Agree.
It is called special military operation in Russia. WW I was started by Germans, not by Russia.
I hear what you’re saying. But I can’t help wondering if Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan could be considered “finished”.
Well despite the red scare, those wars just aren’t existential. Other than the Civil war the US has never really faced an existential war.
The Romanovs didn’t start WWI.
You know you’re at antiwar.com, right?
I have a question for the “Russia will win” types. It’s a shame the Thanos guy is gone, would have liked to hear his opinion on this – how exactly does Russia plan on winning this war?
Oh, I know, their economy is doing great, Europe is suffering and will suffer, yadda yadda, but if Russia actually hopes to take Odessa like Colonel MacGregor or others claim, how do they plan on doing that without an army? I’m no military general but if you’re going to occupy a piece of land I would think you would need soldiers to at least keep the peace, let alone take the land
Oh I know, it’s a tactical retreat… saving lives… but it seems that after Luhansk was captured Russia really doesn’t have much to show
It could’ve been a tactical retreat two months ago but now, if they in fact pull out, that’s a straight up battle defeat.
Nope.
Lugansk never changed hands. 500K strong Russian army will be ready for action in December. Whether it is enough to take Odessa or not, we will learn in due course.
Good point. Still, as I have stated before, my concern is that it is possible, at some point, for things to get out of control…
It is possible only if they start to use the nukes. It depends exclusively upon American leadership, whether they will decide to gamble or not. Most likely not.
Fair enough and I appreciate your directness.
I doubt we will learn whether it is “strong enough” to take Odessa or not, because I doubt that Putin is stupid enough to try.
Which ever side people are on, its another huge defeat for Russia.
I am not the one who thinks or ever tbough that was going to be a short war, There are objectives that are yet to be accomplished — Russian or NATO,
Talking sbout “huge defeat” is however absurd, as it involvess a minor territoriial change. This is same as saying Russia had “huge victories”. before.
Both is absurd. The question remains — how does a STRATEGIC victory look like?
It matters nothing who holds Odessa — but it matters enourmously who rules in Kiev.
These are early days. Globally, I see two schools of thought. One claims Russia misjudged, and will have hard time finding a way out — or digging heals for a long stalemate in hope of outlasting Kiev’s slonsors in NATO.
Other claims Russia already won, and US miscalculated by damaging European industry and bringing about superinflatiom which in Baltic states runs at over 30%.
Which is the case?
“It matters nothing who holds Odessa – but it matters enormously who rules in Kiev” – of course, it does matter who rules in Kiev, but Odessa is no less important. When Russian army takes Odessa, they will organize referendum for reintegration of Odessa oblast into Russia. Whatever regime would be in Kiev after the war is finished, Odessa and all Ukrainian Black Sea coast remains Russian. For Russia, it is more important than the political orientation of Ukraine.
I can see that. But I am afraid that the priority must be nilping un the bud the Nazi regime and its ideoligy, The regime consisting primarily of Galician power structures, have crossed all the lines, In peace time since 2014 the regime unleashed death squads, dismantling in the process what was left of the legal system. And while we have beard of few high profile cases, nobody cares what happened to scores of teachers, journalists, government employees, llawyers, nurses. etc — who by the virtue of being Russiian paid price for perceived transgressions against the regime.
Europeans are oblivious to dangers — after all these are only Russians.
But the temptstion could be too great for other zealotic power hungry parties — Greens come to mind.
No, Russia needs to find a way to force the regime change. Taking Odessa and leaving the regime intact — would not make sense,
I am astonished to see the utter indifference to Ukrsinian Nazi practices. Shocked to the core that something like death squads are getting no attention. Why is that so? Most people just focus on war and wins and losses. The very process of voting in Russian majority areas is founded on UN Charter, Artcle 1, Paragraph 2. — right to self-determination. After 8 years of well documented prosecution.
It will be near impossible for Russia to have Nazi monstrosity at the door. And the longer Europe snd US continue supporting Zelenskii, making him into a hero -/ the harder it will be to desl with reality. The hardships in Europe can be exploited by populists to introduce Ukrsine style dictatorship.
On the positive side, not all military in Ukraine are fanatics like the one running tge show in Kiev. Eventually,, if this war dies not go snywhere too fast, NATO may have to sacrifice the Kiev dream team for a more down to esrth general.
The neo-Nazi regime in Kiev was installed by NATO. Americans contributed the most. The death squads are subordinated to those who created them and who finance them. You know who is the main sponsor of Kiev regime. This military conflict is between NATO and Russia. The new border in Ukraine would be the border between US empire and Russia. Whatever regime is installed in what would be left of Ukraine, it can’t be independent, because financially and otherwise it would be dependent upon American oligarchy. Of course, there is a possibility of an agreement between US and Russia about the neutral status of Ukraine, but this possibility is very much unlikely to be realized. The neighbors of Ukraine understand much better what is going on in Ukraine than Americans do, and they are preparing to incorporate some parts of western Ukraine into their countries. Poland is particularly active about that.
Of course, this is a thorny problem. But Russia cannot get sidetracked and must make its mrssage clear. I cannot imagine any country in the world today being able to so expertly hide its crimes against a minority. Of course , this is what Western values are all about — about whatever suits interest-du-jour. Yes, NATO countries were covering attrocities for years.
But Rusdia should stay firm on the isdue of Nazi Gestspo style judtice. Ukraine — whatever is left — must be denazified and rule of law returned.
How to do that — military affsirs are not my thing.
What matters is —not just the neutrality and NATO out of Ukraine. These are strategic security interests.
That is not enough — until life is protected, and the rule of law guaranteed for every citizen — the war cannot end. Because this was the problem in the first place! Russia unfortunatelly cannot afford to give up on. denazification. We live today in a trully messed up world — when UN or other. presumably international organizations — are unqble to stand up to Nazi dictstorship because NATO protects it.
As a resukt. public is uninformed, and media is not doing job.
“Ukraine – whatever is left – must be denazified” – supposing, after a big mobilization and a great military effort, Russia takes the whole Ukrainian territory and denazify it. Then what? Russia can’t integrate it into Russian Federation because the people will vote for the independence from Russia and for the integration into EU/NATO. Russian public opinion also doesn’t want them be part of Russia. Once Ukraine gets independence, it will go back under American or European domination and the pro-western regime would be installed quite democratically even without a coup. I think, it would be a mistake and a great waste of resources to try to integrate West Ukraine into Russia. I am sure, Kremlin will never do it. So, the problem is not the nazification of Ukraine, but the ukrainization of Europe. Few days ago, almost all EU countries openly supported in UN the Nazi ideology which they never did before. Europe is shifting to neo-Nazism, that is the problem.
What sort of independence is that, being in Nato and EU???? It can only happen outside that globalist mafia organizations umbrella. We Italians dream of getting out of both, had enough of being a US colony since 1945.
You have lots of company, the USA wants the whole world to be its colony. It will end like the British Empire ended after the end of WWI
Those who are serving to American oligarchy have their reward. More corrupt is the elite of a country, more loyal to US it is. The same about the mass media – it is profitable to promote American elite’s viewpoint. Those who don’t agree with such rules and promote their independent opinions, are punished. Thats how it works. Look what happened to Assange.
How could the Green party in Germany turn 180 degree and turn into the war monger party, ready to destroy the country and the people, the turn is inexplicably extreme. They are the extreme right, and part of the governing coalition while the AfD a conservative right of center party is being demonized by the media and the same is true of the Linke, a left of center party. Each party has a courageous woman to speak up loud and clear for the German people and the country, all other parties sold out to the CIA and WASHINGTON.
Sarah Wagenknecht for the Linke and Alice Weidel for the AfD. Both are strong leaders, no man I know of is ready to use political capital to act for the nation’s welfare, but Sarah and Alice do.
The job of Green party was to sabotage the import of Russian gas to Germany. I think, everyone in Germany knew about that. And yet, Germans voted for them. They got what they wanted.
I don’t know much about Alice Weidel. Sarah Wagenknecht looks honest and devoted to the interests of the ordinary people. On the other hand, Giorgia Meloni also was fine until she became the prime minister.
One wonders how long she will stay in office.
The Oligarchy owns the government.
The CIA/MI 6 and other intelligence organizations have their tentacles out all over the Western governments and organizations. It is the only way all NATO nations can be so manipulated to walk in step, stick to the same narrative without any public dissent in government,
for governments to publicly say they will support Ukraine without regards of consequences for their nations, their economies, their voters. So much organized insanity is simply incomprehensible.
How could the MSM be so coordinated without any organization?
MSM are owned by the oligarchy, and they are working for the oligarchy.
The Oligarchy owns the government.
The Oligarchy owns the government. !!
The NAZI ideology will always be with us. When one people look down on other people, no matter what you call it, it is the same.
I may be wrong, but I believe that Putin and the Russian people would not tolerate to leave the neo-Nazis in power. I think they all already paid for the tickets to fly to greener pastures and have fat bankaccounts and properties outside Ukraine.
I agree. This is the key priority, every thing else just a mesns of achieving it
I am less hopefull of Gestapo exiting stage left. This is a gift that keeps on giving. Look how is it expertly hidden under rug, and Zelenski’s ethnicity is the magic shield to keep them in power .
I am afraid that this model of barbarity can be transplsnted to Germany. When prople are cold and hungry — their Green fanstics are there to redirect all their anger at Russia. It has already started — it was not THEM that first sabotaged Nord Stream 1 by bizzarely taking Siemens turbine for maintenance to — Canada! Instead of being serviced in Germany! And even after it came— Siemens refused to certify it. Contractually. Russia was not allowed to use Suemens turbines on the lioeline without certification and all required maintenance. As more turbines came due — pioeline flow was reduced. And that was hailed as “Russia reduced deluvrry”. Not that theyvdid not have a brand new NS II to use. No, no. Not thst they did not whine about the need to reduce dependence! Now it is all academic with pipelines being destroyed. Yet, it is Rusdia’s fault they have no gas, All politicians have to do is pump up the public support for getting back at Russia, With latent hatred for loosing WWII, and US /UK deft avoidance to hav to slug through Berlin streets to end the war — the model of Western Ukraine has been perfected. Once a marshall law starts, all reason ends,
Russia better ficus on getting Nazis out of power, And not lose out of sight this goal. Otherwise, problem will only grow,. With Kiev regime gone, any rise of Nazism elsewhere in Europe can be confronted.
But not if they stay as strong and protected by the “ free world” as it stands today.
The resson Sweden and Finland are rushing into NATO is their elite survival kit. With inflation soaring — NATO brings diversion, and any future reason for martial law highly welcome,
Bianca, the US was opposed to Russian LG from day one for at least wo reasons, it reduced the European American dependency, and it was a real price competitor making the EU more economical competitive.
The Anglo=Saxons tried to eliminate Germany twice in two WW, THIS IS THE THIRD TIME.
The obsession with Russia really saved Germany after the second WW. Russia was as annihilated as Germany but the Anglo-Saxons were afraid of Germany and Russia and formed the NATO alliance to keep the US in Russia out and Germany down. They still fear a combined Russian and German economy, therefore Russia and Europe must go, if it turns out as planed.
Absolutely. This is why I fear a releat.
I am hoping that destroying NS I and II might be an eye opener to Germans, The act is clearly anti-Grrman. Of course, Brittish obsession with Germany goes far back and the early successes Germany had with undustrial revolution. It was exacerbated by the outcome of Napoleonic wars when Russia with Prussia and Austro-Hungary defeated Napoleon and restored monarchy and established close relationship with France. That was quickly remedied after vane Nspoleon was wined and dined on British ships off Elba, just to surface in France to raise an “army” of misfits and loyalists — scaring daylights out of Bourbons. Bottom line, British “victory” at Waterloo, and Boubons paying the gratitude money, all until British saw an opportunity to take on Russia defending Ottoman occupation od the peninsula. A classical Phyrric victory for Britain, huge casuslties., and their ally, Bourbons taken out of power for good,.
World War One was all but guaranteed when a grandson of Queen Victoria became King of Germany, and fired Bismarck. Germany became playground for the first coloured regime change plans. Trotsky found financiers and iddological support, while Ataturk was readied for post-Ottoman future.
WWI was great Brityish hope, as it had huge debts ever since the end of Napoleonic wars. Twice its GDP. It was meant to be quick, decisive victory over Germans and use its economy to pay for reparations. But Prussians fought hard and the slaughter continued. Woodrow Wilson, a new sherif in town , came in to fraw new borders of Europe. Germany had nothing to give, and Versailles demands put on Germany were unpayable,
The only concrete result was breaking up of Prussia and a complete breakdown of German economy and society.
Of course, what saved Germany from Mirgentau plan was. Siviet Union. Grooming Germany for another task.
The German middle class was wiped out at the end of WW, the working people, the trades people and their businesses, their savings were wiped out when the money was devalued. The blockades caused hunger and malnutrition, for the people it was misery as in every war, but the brutality and humiliation of Versailles made it worse.
I don’t think the Germans needed an eye opener, they are not a sovereign nation they are still occupied. 30K American troops are not there to protect Germany or Europe. But to mention it is not PC, it is off limits to say it. I think that the CIA has very much penetrated the European governments and a big number of politicians are corrupt and paid for traitors of their countries, not just in Germany, mostly the bigger NATO members. One could call it covert regime changes. These politicians are not stupid, they know what they are doing. Since the USA/CIA has undermined and is in control of all international organizations, including the EU, that is proof that they will stop for nothing. I must give credit where it is due, they are very sophisticated doing it. they used to have real statesmen, not anymore, just trash like Baerbock and Habeck, and Boris, and Liz Truss, Stoltenberg. Borrell and on and on. Despicable.
The German middle class was wiped out at the end of WW, the working people, the trades people and their businesses, their savings were wiped out when the money was devalued. The blockades caused hunger and malnutrition, for the people it was misery as in every war, but the brutality and humiliation of Versailles made it worse.
The USA/CIA has undermined and is in control of all international organizations, including the EU, that shows they will stop for nothing. I must give credit where credit is due, they are very sophisticated doing it. The Europeans used to have real statesmen, not anymore, now it is just trash like Baerbock and Habeck, and Boris, and Liz Truss,
30K American troops are not there to protect Germany or Europe. But to mention it is not PC, it is off limits to say it. I think that the CIA has very much undermined the European governments and a big number of politicians are corrupt and paid for traitors of their countries, not just in Germany, mostly the bigger NATO members. One could call it covert regime changes. These politicians are not stupid, they know what they are doing. I must give credit where it is due, they are very sophisticated doing it. Europeans used to have real statesmen, not anymore, just trash like Baerbock and Habeck, and Boris, and Liz Truss, Stoltenberg. Borrell and on and on. Despicable.
Bianca, the US was opposed to Russian LG from day one for at least wo reasons, it reduced the European American dependency, and it was a real price competitor making the EU more economical competitive.
The Anglo=Saxons tried to eliminate Germany twice in two WW, THIS IS THE THIRD TIME.
The obsession with Russia really saved Germany after the second WW. Russia was as annihilated as Germany but the Anglo-Saxons were afraid of Germany and Russia and formed the NATO alliance to keep the US in Russia out and Germany down. They still fear a combined Russian and German economy, therefore Russia and Europe must go, if it turns out as planed.
Bianca, the US was opposed to Russian LG from day one for at least wo reasons, it reduced the European American dependency, and it was a real price competitor making the EU more economical competitive.
The Anglo=Saxons tried to eliminate Germany twice in two WW, THIS IS THE THIRD TIME.
The obsession with Russia really saved Germany after the second WW. Russia was as annihilated as Germany but the Anglo-Saxons were afraid of Germany and Russia and formed the NATO alliance to keep the US in Russia out and Germany down. They still fear a combined Russian and German economy, therefore Russia and Europe must go, if it turns out as planed.
What do you call a country that wont defend its homeland, even though it has the ability too? What was the point of the 300,000 reserves if all he was going to do is hand over Russia.
Kherson is Russia, if he wont fight for Russia in Kherson he wont fight for Russia in Moscow. Putin must go, his legacy is now the destruction of Russia and it is being carved up as i type.
I hate to say it but there is no other conclusion, Putin is not prepared to fight for Russia and Russia is lost. You may argue they can win it back, they wont, they wont fight for Russia. In the end Putin is a traitor.
All the soldiers who gave their lives for Putin to just surrender. What a disgrace he is.
The Neocons have won. God save us all. I am just saddened at how gutless Russians have become. I am saddened at what a traitor Putin is.
I always understood that in the Donbass it wasn’t Russian land. Kherson etc is now Russia and Russia has just surrendered a part of Russian homeland. Its over Russia has lost. Putin has handed Russian territory to Ukraine in a huge military defeat.
It wont end here, Russia will now be carved up piece by piece and Putin wont fight. The neocons were right Russia will be carved up. That is why for 9 years he let the ethnic Russians be slaughtered. Why he just hands over Russian land to Nazi’s, Putin is a globalist what does he really care for Russia and the Russian people?
Whether Putin stays for one more term or go after the elections in 2024, will be decided by the vote of Russian people (and, of course, by Putin himself).
The retreat from the right bank was decided by Surovikin. So far, Putin never questioned the decisions of the military what does concern this war. At least, publicly. The recent mobilization was decided by the military themselves. Putin only supported it.
Few people in Russia doubt that the war will continue until Russian army liberates all the territory which belongs to Russia.
Putin is not going anywhere unless he accidentally falls off a balcony.
With some help, I suppose? Like Allende, Milosevich, Saddam, Geddafi, and all the other guys whose main guilt was to make plans for their own countries that didn’t suit uncle Sam?
Surovikin, not Putin, made the decision.
Contrary to a popular misconception constantly imposed on us by mass media, Putin delegates authority in most cases.
The tsar is good but the boyars are bad.
Nonsense, and You, of all people, are the last person I expected to hear it from.
I am not judgemental on this particular occasion.
You would know exactly what I mean if you read the primary article on Surovikin on Wiki.
Surovikin obviously had very good reasons for making the tactical decision he made.
My point is that the Russian command of the Ukraine war has been awful, and ultimately it’s Putin’s responsibility because he appointed the incompetent commanders.
And yes, you’ve misread my past posts. I was never a cheerleader for Putin. I was only refuting bullshit Western propaganda. My stand hasn’t changed at all. I’m still sympathetic towards Russia. Just not towards Putin, since he’s proven to be incompetent.
good for u.
I’m sure Surovikin DID have very good reasons for making the tactical decision he made.
I don’t assume that he just blurted out all of those very good reasons on TV.
I’m taking note that I’m not the only one who has lost faith in Putin recently.
You are mistaken about Russia’s President, Che, which saddens me greatly.
Putin is bound to have a much better picture of what is going on than You and I can possibly imagine.
The bottom line – Russia’s President will NOT be outsmarted, no matter how hard the living corpse biden and associated vermin of persident macaroni or sly micro rodent sushi risnak’s variety try.
I’ve written many times that “Putin may yet prevail” despite the shambolic performance by Russia’s military under Putin. In the past, Russia has lost many wars, but eventually it prevailed because of its sheer size and capacity for human sacrifice. For example, Stalin “won” WWII, but at the cost of millions of Soviet people. But I consider such “victories” to be defeats.
How very original of u.
Minor territorial change?
Will you still say that when Ukraine retakes the rest of Kherson and Zaporizhia Oblasts?
There is a military battle in Ukraine, what about the home fronts, economies, inflations, demonstrations and unstable governments? Biden is losing the sanctions/economical Homefront wars. How many chancellors did they have in London in the last year? Scholz and his corrupt CIA supported government is in trouble too, Italy changed its government, there is Orban and Erdogan and senile old Biden. All that counts, don’t think it is nothing. And of course the oil is the biggest elephant in the room.
I think you are right.
You Don Julio are in fact a troll. I thought you might be legit but sadly you’re only a troll. Bye.
The definition of troll is not “someone who disagrees with me.”
That is never going to happen. The local population is Russian and wants to be with Russia, no matter what the DS, Biden, the dems or the collective West want. And in general, nato should get out of Europe, we are all fed up with it (apart from our corrupted puppet politicians)
THIS WILL BE THE END OF NATO no matter how it ends, the same is true for the EU. It is all intentional, the neocons know what they are doing. Only they can’t tell how it will end for them. They are nihilists and on a suicide mission.
The latter is a bit premature but corresponds to reality better.
Sad violin?
Never expected that from You, Doom.
It seems reasonable to question what “pulling out of Kherson City” actually means. There seem to be three main possibilities:
1) That’s it’s some kind of ruse;
2) That it is a tactical withdrawal for the purpose of improving Russian prospects in the coming battle for that area; or
3) That it is the beginning of a strategic withdrawal from Kherson oblast for the purpose of concentrating troops on a final/ceasefire line of control the encompasses the Luhansk and Donetsk People’s Republics and perhaps a land corridor connecting them to Crimea.
The first doesn’t seem very likely. The third is in line with my own conclusions regarding the Russian regime’s main goals, but that doesn’t mean it’s correct.
It could just be the second: There’s a battle coming up for the area around the city of Kherson and the Russians prefer establishing good defensive positions with a river between them and the Ukrainian forces (positions from which they can shell the Ukrainian forces without worrying about their own units’ positions, or about civilian casualties in an evacuated city) to trying to defend the city itself street by street. The city can always be reoccupied if they win the battle, and if they lose the battle they lose the city anyway.
Think of the battle of Stalingrad: The Russians won it, but having to ferry civilians out and troops and supplies in across the Volga under enemy fire were disadvantages, not advantages, in winning it. With Kherson, they evacuated civilians early, and they wouldn’t be wasting their efforts on defending the city house by house, factory by factory, etc.
Are you standing up for Doom now?
Very interesting.
Otherwise, unlike you, I am not into a guessing game of the most amateurish kind imaginable, although it is pretty apparent what exactly is going on.
Anything else?
Incidentally, here is a view from genuinely competent quarters:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr1Zu3yokP8
dated 9th November.
And some directly relevant context:
Half-Way Into His First Term, Joe Biden Has Failed Americans Disastrously as Commander-in-Chief:
https://covertactionmagazine.com/2022/11/08/half-way-into-his-first-term-joe-biden-has-failed-americans-disastrously-as-commander-in-chief/
Ukraine: The CIA’s 75-year-old Proxy
By Gerald Sussman:
https://covertactionmagazine.com/2022/09/12/ukraine-the-cias-75-year-old-proxy/?fbclid=IwAR0bpjrHlwPruLd92OEQgK5pDMixn0eAwjiKMa76gHdo6uKvbwqtW9sUNls
I’m not sure how countering Doom’s pessimistic outlook with “there may be reasons why it’s not precisely what it’s being portrayed as” is “standing up for” him.
When it comes to the “massively successful Ukrainian offensive” claims, I’ve been pretty consistent over time in saying “don’t assume that forward movement is victory or that rearward movement is defeat.” While that CAN be the case, it’s also the case that every time the Ukrainians advance their supply lines get longer, that every time the Russians retreat their supply lines get shorter, and that good defensible positions are a combat multiplier against an enemy that has to coordinate large forward movements so as to not e.g. outrun its artillery and armor support just as it comes up against strongly defended positions with good fields of fire, pre-registered artillery targets, etc.
As a tactical matter, putting the Dnieper between themselves and the advancing Ukrainian forces makes sense. As does using their troops and shells to defend that line rather than playing the “street to street, house to house” fighting game in the city. Even if we discount the “to save civilian lives” reasons for evacuating Kherson, it makes tactical sense. Instead of having to carefully target artillery/air/armor support for Russian troops who are six feet away from their Ukrainian counterparts and separated by a narrow street or a rickety wall, the entire city becomes a free-fire zone for the Russian assets.
That’s the tactical outlook.
On the strategic end, do I believe that the Russian plan is to secure LPR/DPR/a land corridor in a defensible way and abandon the rest of Ukraine? Yes, I do. But even if that’s not true, there are as described above, good tactical reasons for what the Russian forces seem to be doing.
Thank You for Your very intelligent breakdown.
I am sorry. I misread You.
Not enough coffee for me today is the only excuse I can think of.
Well, by all means, get yourself some coffee! But it’s no big deal, and thanks for the opportunity to extend/revise my remarks 😀
It’s hard not to see that Russia has demonstrated an unique concern for human life. Had they done a Gen. Sherman (US military archetype) through the South with strategic bombing continuously for a month or two, and then the bulldozers to push the dirt over the dead, it would have finished long ago. OTOH that the Nazis (Kiev & Washington) were going to blow up the Nova Karkova (sp.?) dam is credible.
Correct.
Russians defeated the Wehrmacht, it took a long time, but they did it.
USA/NATO underestimated Russians big time, keep it up.
Wishful thinking
Huge defeat?
Nonsense.
With respect, I doubt you have any inside track as to what the Russians may or may not think.
It’s not that I have an inside track as to what the Russians may or may not think.
It’s that I assume they do think.
Could that assumption be incorrect? Sure.
I doubt Russia even wants to take Odessa. There was a specific mission.
I think they do and most people in Odessa do.
“Russia will win” types?
Stick it.
Russia is battling the U.S. and UK and NATO. Even if the war ended tomorrow, Russian leaders know that the West will never accept Russia as a partner. What happened 30 years ago means nothing to the Western warmongers. Nothing. Thank G-d Putin is in charge in Russia, because if he goes there is the prospect of him being replaced with men who are p*ssed that Putin did not order full “shock and awe” in the beginning, just level everything. Saner minds need to consider the prospect and negotiate an end to the war. Unfortunately, there does not appear to be so in the Biden administration.
What does USA/NATO have to show for all the funding, killings and destruction of UKRAINE? Do not forget the 7 years of investments and training in the Ukraine’s de facto NATO army after the CIA organized regime change in 2014?
“What does USA/NATO have to show for all the funding, killings and destruction of UKRAINE?”
So far? Two new member states coming, Ukraine as a de facto member state, and Russia exposed as a paper tiger.
I don’t think those things are worth the price because I’m anti-war and non-interventionist, and because I’d rather see the US empire decline as fast as the Russian empire is declining, but I can understand why pro-war/interventionist/imperialist types consider it a reasonable bargain.
Sweden has been a de facto NATO member for years, these are not Olaf Palme years anymore, Finland, who knows what moved the politicians to give up neutrality. One thing for sure, this is the end of NATO and Finland and Ukraine missed the boat. USA/NATO HAS WON NOTHING, ONLY THE WAR PROFITEERS WON that includes all the privately owned oil giants and their shareholders and of course the MIC . And the longer it lasts the merrier. ALL OTHERS OF US are the losers.
Sweden has been a de facto NATO member for years, these are not Olaf Palme years anymore, Finland, who knows what moved the politicians to give up neutrality. One thing for sure, this is the end of NATO and Finland and Ukraine missed the boat. USA/NATO HAS WON NOTHING, ONLY THE WAR PROFITEERS WON that includes all the privately owned oil giants and their shareholders and of course the MIC . And the longer it lasts the merrier. ALL OTHERS OF US are the losers.
Finland makes no sense at all, what can they possibly gain?
War profits explains it all and the profits are REAL profits.
These are nice gains for the US. More of Europe is united behind the US, and moving towards subservience as well, which is also hugely beneficial for the US. However, my take is that the US IS declining, and in some significant ways.
At the beginning of the war, European leaders talked glowingly about taking care of Ukrainian refugees THAT LOOK JUST LIKE US (white). Not like those OTHER refugees (black, brown, Muslim). The US MSM doubled down on how delightful it would be to take care of white Ukrainian refugees, as compared to the total hatred for brown immigrants south of the border in the US and Muslim refugees in Europe. The rest of the world took notice.
While being OUTRAGED that Russians kill children and babies, just like the stories of Iraqis massacring babies from the past, the US MSM, including member of both parties of Congress, lionized Madeleine Albright at her recent funeral, who previously stated quite clearly that our 1990s sanctions on Iraq killing 500,000 Iraqi children was acceptable or worth it. The rest of the world took notice.
350,000 people have starved to death in Yemen due to war, sanctions, and a US blockade of Yemen. I have not heard one claim that more than 850,000 people have been killed by Russia in the whole Ukrainian war. The rest of the world took notice.
People remember shock and awe. President Biden made a grand declaration that we would be sending food and commercial commodities to other nations – Trump previously called them shit hole nations – “to counter Chinese influence”. NOT to help the nations build up their economies long term. The rest of the world took notice.
India now buys as much as Russia can provide. China and Russia are 100% allies. Saudi Arabia and UAE are now closer to Russia than to the US. Iran is a military partner of Russia. And as much as the US has talked about making Ukraine into another Afghanistan – it is looking like it will cost the US and the EU tens of billions of dollars to get our part of Ukraine up to the economic standards of Afghanistan.
The US and Europe have spent as much on Ukraine as Russia spends on its entire military in a full year. Combined, UK, Germany, and France militarily outspend Russia annually by a lot. And yet Russia, even after Ukraine retakes Kherson, will have taken somewhere between 15% and 20% of Ukraine. The old way of thinking was that in any military confrontation, NATO would CRUSH Russia. It is not so certain anymore. And in a big NATO-Russian war, it is clear to everyone that EU would be a shit hole continent after it was over, to use Trump’s terminology.
The US has lost a lot in the last 10 months. Much of it is self-inflicted. Our information war has been a double edged sword, just as our sanctions have.
“I’m no military general”.
Kinda says it all.
What do you mean “without an army”? They have now a much bigger army and a lot of advanced weapons. If they do go on, it’s because they know they can make it. And they are fighting for Russian’s existence, since the DS plans to break the country up in many smaller “countries” and then suck up all its natural riches.
On paper you’re right; statistically Russia is the 98 lb. weakling with the entire might of the Western Imperium massed against her. But, the critically, Russia is fighting for its life, Washington, for Wall St., … and they’ve done it before.
Russia’s not fighting for its life, Ukraine is. Russia is fighting for Putin, and the massive number of men who have left it show that a lot of them don’t really want to.
Ukraine is just another Washington patsy. You have to pity them.
But Russia is fighting for its existence as an independent and unique culture and nation, resisting the loss of identity and autonomy, the vulgarization, debt slavery and corruption caused by Capitalist consumerist liberal individualism.
For some reason, Moscow has decided not to “unleash the kraken” on Ukraine. Most likely they want the future Ukraine to be an ally, and inflicting mass damage and casualties would ensure that the population will permanently be anti-Russian. So they are trying to win the war as “cleanly” as possible in the hopes that Kiev will surrender or will be replaced by a new Ukrainian state which will sue for peace.
I see 2 diametrically opposed possibilities. Not much in between.
First of all, the US and Russia have had about a month – really longer – to prepare for the Russian withdrawal from Kherson. There is nothing rushed or hurried about any of this.
Number 1 is: The US and Russia have worked out an agreement to end the kinetic part of our hostilities. Of course, economic warfare would continue.
This would allow Russia to build up it’s economic ties with Central Asia and other nations, and to continue work on decoupling the Russian and US economies. We need time to rebuild our domestic supply chains, and Russia needs time to build new pipelines and rail lines as well.
Through what’s left of the pipelines from Russia to Germany, Russia would be able to provide enough fossil fuels to Germany to keep Germans from freezing, but little enough that Germany would be forced to buy American fossil fuels at very high prices. Very profitable for the US. The destruction of the NS pipelines was a huge huge win for the US, as I think it was Blinken excitedly exclaimed earlier.
This would allow us to pivot to China and go all in on a full spectrum dominance war vs China unhindered by complications in Eastern Europe, and with complete domination of Europe.
2> War escalation once the withdrawal is complete. Either Russia is withdrawing because they are weak (they had a LONG time to fortify the city if they so desired), in which case the US will roll through the rest of Eastern Ukraine (Western Russia?) throughout the winter, or Russia is strong, setting a trap, and is waiting for the ground to freeze before unleashing their winter offensive.
We will know somewhere around Christmas either way. Then again – maybe January will come and go and the SMO will continue on, just with slightly different borders.
Interesting breakdown WA and thanks.
Russia is withdrawing only temporarily to save lives in case the Ukros shell the dam and flood the place causing thousands of victims, they have no intention to give the area back and the population intends to return as soon as the situation changes.
“or Russia is strong, setting a trap, and is waiting for the ground to freeze before unleashing their winter offensive.”
In my opinion, Russia isn’t making any traps. Russia just can’t sustain fighting in modern war style against a near peer Army capable of employing combined arms with modern weapons onto its enemy. Russia is still in WWII tactics. Every single one of its combat units has the minus (-) next to them. They have lost command and control, Close Air Support, optimal logistics capability, and many other important capabilities of modern Warfare. The only thing they can do is, again, back to WWII tactics, which is unobserved shelling of cities and fields, couple missiles here and there and drones against civilian infrastructure. Perhaps a lot of conscripted cannon fodders. Or just tactical nukes if they want to level the playing fields.
We will know whether or not your analysis is correct probably by Christmas.
I just hope it stays in no-nuke SMO territory. A full out Shock and Awe war could shorten the life expectancies of many of us.
Is it my imaginaton that I see Russia fighting whole nato? Poor Ukranians are pushed forward to fight it while mighty military hardware worth billions are being shoved into their arms to fight and die with.
They asked for lethal assistance.
They are willingly fighting for their land as oppose to Russians being forced to fight for Putin.
That’s BS. If the US/Nato forces thought they were stronger they would have already attacked long ago. But they know that they can’t. Listen to what many US high ranking military men are saying: that it would be suicide to confront the Russian troops directly.
Cant argue with nonsense like this.
The feint to the south is over. I am sure soon the cunning plan will be revealed.
Mongolian tactic of retreat and then attack!
The defenders of the fortresses thinking if they attacked the retreating forces they could destroy them and totally relieve the siege of their defensive position. Of course over the horizon or in the forests, the Mongols waited for them.
Kherson Must have been a city without any strategic value or a maybe this is another goodwill gesture.
Ukrainians won’t stop at Kherson. They will cut that land corridor all the way to the sea and fan out North and South. They have the experience, it’s their terrain, better trained and equipped Plus the will and cause to fight.
Suddenly Russia wants diplomacy. If they don’t hurry up and offer acceptable demands, they may end up with less territory than they had before.
“Suddenly Russia wants diplomacy.”
“Suddenly”? Like before the invasion until the present?
Yes, suddenly.
Were they really looking for diplomacy before? Really? Diplomacy to you, maybe.
Russia has always, always wanted to take Ukraine but you deny that fact which has been confirmed by the horse’s mouth, Putin.
No it wasnt suddenly unless you are ignoring the years waiting for Kiev to implement the Minsk deal
Oh no, im not ignoring that, and im surely not ignoring the fact that Russia did not honor the Budapest Memorandum that came decades before the BS bully Misnk agreement.
You sound like @wars r us. Always bringing up the Minsk Agreement but quick to tell you that he doesn’t care about the Budapest Memorandum (agreement). How convenient.
BS bully Misnk agreement? Why don’t you admit that all you have is mud to sling. You’re not a serious person. It’s as simple as that.
Oh GtFOH with your im better than you crap. Get off that peanut gallery.
Budapest Memorandum was rendered useless after the 2014 coup and attacks on the Donbass
Correct.
Personal opinion?
Show me where in the memo is states so. Wait, does that mean Ukraine can now develop Their own nukes?
At least read it if you are going to argue.
The coup was a Ukrainian internal matter caused by an external actor ( Putin) trying to prevent Ukraine from having a profitable economic trade with the EU that would include Ukrainian natural gas sales to Europe.
Spoken like someone who gets their understanding of Russia’s position from the western press.
I actually do. A lot.
Obviously. And why did you downvote him if you are in agreement?
Nonsense. In 2021 Russia asked for diplomacy, protection for the Russia speaking separatist in Donbas. Same in January. Then the opportunity in April. Russia has run a careful war, not a “shock and awe” that some countries pull on a defenseless country. Folks that wish Putin to be relieved are asking for trouble. There are hardliners that wanted “shock and awe” from the beginning, people and infrastructure be d*mned. The objective was never to “take” Ukraine.
Aww Russia. They are so nice with their neighbors.
Once regular borders are restored, I am sure Ukraine will be open to some diplomacy.
In March the UK/US said no to a peace deal
https://news.antiwar.com/2022/05/09/uks-boris-johnson-urges-ukraine-not-to-negotiate-with-russia/
And this from this article:
“Also on Wednesday, Russia reaffirmed that it’s open to negotiations. “We are still open to negotiations. We have never refused to have them.”
So, that covers most of the war. And if you include the original Russian demands being dismissed out of hand pre-invasion, I’d say it was pretty evident ONE side was willing to negotiate.
Kherson is on the west side of the river. Did you read the article?
Let me check.
Interesting analysis on this situation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_DeH3-H4SQ
Its all lies, Russia has surrendered. The Generals are a disgrace. Putin is a disgrace. If they wont fight then what is it all about? It was always about the destruction of Russian and genocide of the Russian people.
The Russian people are suckers and they are all dead.
Have you had your Weetabix today, Doom?
Let’s see what happens when the ground is frozen enough to support armor and the 300,000 military reserves recalled recently are in position.
General Surovikin nicknamed “General Armageddon” and General Winter are fast approaching.
Russia has factories manufacturing weapons and enough oil to support and operations requiring fuel. Russia can also call on up to 25 million men while Ukraine cannot.
Ukraine must rely on begging to support their military ambitions. In addition, the Ukrainians have already lost over 100,000 KIA and twice that number wounded.
In the American Civil War the industrial North fought the agricultural South. Similar problems of smaller population and limited industrial base.
300,000 troops without armor or artillery are flat out doomed, it will be a very sad short war for them. Immoral to send them considering they have no chance.
The 300,000 Russian conscripts who are former trained military members separated but still eligible for recall, not green troops.
Secondly, as I said already Russia has factories manufacturing weapons and enough oil to support and operations requiring fuel. Factories recently have started 24/7 manufacturing tanks, drones, artillery, and GPS guided missile systems.
Third, Russia has national resolve and the West has angered the Russian population. The Russian soul has been galvanized into a soverign nation of citizens who are irate with Zelensky and the West.
You are right, Russian military industry is working much better now than 8 months ago.
If 300K are not enough, they will mobilize more. No problem about that. 300K are less than 2% of the whole Russian reservist capacity.
Slow national suicide, fascinating to watch. Russia is facing some very large percentage of the Western economy and highly motivate troops from Ukraine. They are hosed eventually they will figure it out. Many already have and have fled the country.
Either you are a Ukrainian troll or you bought into American propaganda.
They literally are green troops in many instances though. Just because Russian state media told you that’s what they were doing doesn’t make it true. There are numerous accounts of men with no military background whatsoever being sent to the front with minimal training, which you choose to ignore and dismisses propaganda.
Russia does not have the continual assistance in the form of what seems to be a never ending supply of money to Kiev. We all know this war has nothing to do with Ukraine and everything to do with “weakening” Russia so as to the U.S. staying the main hegemon. This is a grand game of Risk. The thought is to weaken Russia, then focus on China. No goodwill, just war and the lining of the pockets of the MIC. Just for kicks we are involved in Africa too.
Lest we leave out the Middle East and South America…
I notice a lot of pro-Ukraine trolls swarm comment sections here. Same for Twitter and Reddit.
They talk nothing else but Russia and Ukraine 90% of the time.
The Current Thing will always bring out people who care about The Current Thing. Right now that’s pro-Ukraine and pro-Russia people. If there’s a China-Taiwan war, it will be pro-China and pro-Taiwan people. If the US pulls a surprise invasion of Cuba, it will be pro-US and pro-Cuba people.
Pro-Ukraine and anti-war people, actually, plus some pro-Russia people. But I haven’t seen many here who are applauding Russian kills the way I see people who whoop when Ukraine appears to have the upper hand in battles. It’s nowhere near as bad here in any case, as it is in other political fora, where Ukrainian “victories” are cheered, the more robustly when there are elevated Russian body counts.
You’d almost think it was we who are killing and maiming Russians. Oh wait….
Really? Because I’ve seen posters, such as CT, flat out say things such as “the only good Ukrainian is a dead Ukrainian.”
For sure; just try to say anything anti-Ukraine in /r/worldnews.
You caught us. George Soros is paying us the big bucks.
IF there has been negotiations, I would hope that Russia takes to heart the number of times we have trashed agreements. Never underestimate the ability of our government to not honor them.
The fertile soil for NAZI movement was the humiliating unconditional Versailles surrender. It destroyed the currency and the wealth of the working middle class and their businesses and incomes, that was the reason why the middle class rebelled and followed Hitler. We experience much the same thing now, neoliberal economics is destroying the working middle class. In the USA wages and salaries have been stagnant, many people must file for personal bankruptcy because of medical bills, poverty and homelessness has been rising and the flimsy social safety net is in shreds, the government cuts services to fund more wars opening the gates for neo-nazis, the only hope there is for working people who can’t pay their mortgages.