Dan Rice, an American serving as an advisor to the commander of Ukraine’s armed forces, told CNN’s Outfront on Tuesday that he believes Russia is looking to negotiate to return to positions it controlled before the February 24 invasion.
Rice made the comments when discussing Russia’s strikes on Ukrainian infrastructure and outlining what weapons he thinks Ukraine needs. “They are attacking the cities, trying to attack the grid, making it a very difficult winter,” he said. “They are trying to, in my opinion, trying to get to the negotiating table, to try to go back to the 2014 lines.”
A return to the “2014 lines” would mean Russia keeps Crimea, and Kyiv would have to cede the Donbas region, or at least a portion of it, to the Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics (DPR and LPR). But Rice said those terms wouldn’t be acceptable for Ukraine.
“Ukraine won’t have it. Ukraine wants all of their land back to the ’91 lines. They really need air defense systems and aircraft,” Rice said.
Rice is an American combat veteran and the president of Thayer Leadership, a leader development company based at the US Military Academy in West Point. He was appointed as a special advisor to Ukrainian Commander-in-Chief Valeriy Zaluzhnyi, which was first announced in May.
Rice’s comments come as the prospects for a diplomatic solution to end the war seem slim. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky recently signed a decree ruling out talks with Russia as long as Vladimir Putin is president, and US officials have reportedly ruled out pushing Ukraine to negotiate even though they don’t think Kyiv can win the war “outright.”
While Rice said Russia is looking to return to the “2014 lines,” Putin has signaled that the territory he’s annexed may not be up for discussion. In a speech on September 30, he called for negotiations with Ukraine and said, “But the choice of the people in Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia, and Kherson will not be discussed.”
In recent weeks, Russian officials have repeatedly said that they are open to negotiations, but their comments have been rejected by the US. The Kremlin said last week that Moscow remains “open to negotiations to achieve our objectives” in Ukraine.
Ukraine was gifted by Soviet Union many lands that were never Ukrainian. And this is at the root of the problem,
It is absurd to think that Zelenski has any latitude in deciding the course of war. The speculation on what Russia wants is just that – a speculation.
There is still a ways to go, But there is a pulpable unease over the continued war. Former Ambassador Matlock summed it up the best. US is rapidly losing Europe. It hardly matters what current governments position is – vox populi has spoken. And the public is excedingly vocal about blaming US for destroying their economy and war profiteering by selling LNG ten times the price of pipeline Russian gas. The disatisfaction with leadership that is banging on the same old justification for destroying economy — is still inarticulate, but the presdure is growing.
Therd is clearly unease spelled out in Newsweek article worrying how a combination of neocon warmongering and woke liberalism is leading to WOKE WAR III,
Guardian published an unusually candid piece on popular view ofvwar in predominantly Russian
communities, like in heavily contested Bakhmut.
Other analysts, like in Times of India, claim that Rusdia already won.
So, it is of no use being a cheerleader — realities will eventually sink in on all sides.
You are right, Bolshevism is the rout of the problem. Italian fascism and German Nazism got the upper hand in Europe also thanks to Bolshevik victory in Russia. God punished us all for our sins.
Nazism and Fascism were necessary evil to make the sleeping giant the head honcho of Europe for 60 years. Some in DC would consider that a great achievement. But like all arrogant empires, they never think in long terms.
My comment never passed through antiwar censorship, which proves that antiwar is a propaganda platform.
I’ve been on this website for a very long time and this website, true to form is ANTIWAR. The only time I ever experienced any difficulty was when I used some four letter verbiage.
Yet, here you are… And as with all things pertaining to freedom, if things don’t float your boat here, there are plenty of other places to go…
My way is talking honestly about everything. For a lot of people, the truth is unacceptable.
I have no problem with you.
Same here 😉
Perhaps if you want to website completely free of censorship you should go over to 4 Chan or similar. I bet you’d fit right in. Or start your own if you feel that “censored” anywhere you go. No one owes you a platform.
Bolshevism was effectively eliminated in Tsar Joseph’s purges of the 1930s.
That is true. But the system of terror lasted about 20 years longer. The damage which was done in time of Civil War and following years was irreparable. Not only all the upper castes were destroyed, but also the best part of the peasants.
True. And there are remnants of Bolshevism bedeviling Russia to this day. For example, KGB agents occupying the presidency and the patriarchate.
KGB was not the same as ЧК. First of all, they belonged to different ethnic groups. Their job was different too. KGB people served to the state, while those in 1920th were busy with the destruction of the remnants of the old state and replacing it by something quite different.
Not sure what you mean by “belonged to different ethnic groups.” Dzerzhinsky and Menzhinsky were Polish, while Yagoda was Jewish, Yezhov was Lithuanian, Beria was Georgian, Kruglov and Serov and Shelepin were Russian, Semichastny was Ukrainian, etc.
Not sure what you mean by “belonged to different ethnic groups.” Dzerzhinsky and Menzhinsky were Polish, while Yagoda was Jewish, Yezhov was Lithuanian, Beria was Georgian, Kruglov and Serov and Shelepin were Russian, Semichastny was Ukrainian, etc.
After the death of Lenin, who also wasn’t Russian, 3 top men in the party (state) hierarchy were Trotsky (Bronstein), Zinoviev (Apfelbaum) and Kamenev (Rozenfeld). Usually, if one mention to what ethnic group they belong, the comment is deleted.
No, comments aren’t deleted for mentioning what ethnic groups people belong to. Comments are deleted for ethnic slurs, such as claiming some inherent connection between ethnic groups and negative characteristics.
Lenin was of mixed ancestry, including Russian, German, Swedish, Jewish, and probably Kalmyk.
The whole area we think of as “Russia” has always been one gigantic melting pot. I assume that the DNA test my brother got which tells us we have both Russian and Ashkenazi ancestors reflects ancestors from the same general area.
No, comments aren’t deleted for mentioning what ethnic groups people belong to. Comments are deleted for ethnic slurs, such as claiming some inherent connection between ethnic groups and negative characteristics.
Lenin was of mixed ancestry, including Russian, German, Swedish, Jewish, and probably Kalmyk.
After his death, the top man in the party was Stalin, who was General Secretary from 1922 on. He allied himself first with the non-Jewish Bukharin/Rykov/Tomsky axis, although at times he would play footsie with Zinoviev and/or Kamenev in his continuing work to suppress the Trotsky-led opposition. And of course once he was done with Trotsky, he eliminated almost all of the old Bolsheviks, Jewish and non-Jewish alike.
The whole area we think of as “Russia” has always been one gigantic melting pot. I assume that the DNA test my brother got which tells us we have both Russian and Ashkenazi ancestors reflects ancestors from the same general area.
My comment is delayed at the moment. Maybe it will pass not. Your version is wrong. General Secretary at that time wasn’t that important. About Lenin also wrong. The competition after Lenin’s death was between Trotsky on one side and Zinoviev/Kamenev on another side. Stalin sided with those two. Only in time of 14th Party Congress, he toppled them.
I’ve only read a few histories of the period, many of them by Trotskyites (like Isaac Deutscher), but Stalin was already enough of a threat by the time Lenin died that Lenin felt the need to warn the Politburo against him.
I’m not sure that Trotsky or Zinoviev would have been any less bloodthirsty and purge-prone than Stalin. Neither shrank from terror as an instrument of solidifying the party’s power when they were in positions to do so. For that matter, Stalin had a habit of adopting portions of Trotsky’s program as soon as he could find an excuse to do so after defeating Trotsky on whatever the issue was. And even after he was exiled, Trotsky frequently defended Stalin’s policies, or at least explained them in Marxist-Leninist terms instead of just writing them off as power plays. Pretty much up to the end, Trotsky described the Soviet Union as a “degenerated workers’ state” that might still collapse into socialism rather than capitalism, rather than the mere managerial bureaucracy that e.g. Rizzi and Burnham noted as characteristic of both fascism and Stalinism.
Stalin was never considered by the leaders of Party as equal (until it was too late). Even Bukharin (though he wasn’t one of them) enjoyed more respect because he was ideologue intellectual. Lenin discovered the danger when it was too late. Both the guards and the medical staff were picked up by Stalin. De facto Lenin was imprisoned by Stalin. Almost certainly, it was Stalin who killed him. He killed them all. Including Bukharin.
For Russia, of course it was a great luck that this crafty nobody outsmarted them all. Stalin was a great talented man, but in a different way than the leaders of Bolshevism.
It looks, every time when a certain ethnic group mentioned, Antiwar deletes the comment.
No, every time when a certain ethnic group is mentioned, Antiwar’s moderation algorithm holds the comment for inspection. If it doesn’t include ethnic slurs, it gets approved as soon as a moderator comes through to look (almost always me, usually every hour or so for 16 hours a day — I do sleep occasionally).
We have a real periodic problem with Stormfront types deciding to bring their filth over here, so certain stuff gets looked at before it publicly posts.
Even though I disagree with a lot of your views on this latest war, I think your presence provides good guidance and balance to discussions which can bring more heat than light.
I escaped here from a political forum where any comment with even a whiff of dissent from democratic party orthodoxy brought assaults vigorous enough to ban dissidents. Criticism of anything Biden was regarded as grounds for expulsion. Needless to say, political discussion was sterile.
Well, just to be clear: My OPINIONS as a COMMENTER here are entirely my own and shouldn’t be taken as representing Antiwar.com’s position on anything.
My job as a MODERATOR here is to enforce specific guidelines. Those guidelines have nothing whatsoever to do with my personal opinions on “what should be allowed.” It’s a janitorial function. Some graffiti I have to scrub off the walls even if I like it. Some vomit I’m not allowed to mop up off the floor no matter how much I hate it being there.
If it was up to me, everyone could say whatever they wanted and those who didn’t like it could either learn to use the “block” button or leave. But when I was offered the job of moderator, it was made clear to me that nobody else wanted it and that if it wasn’t taken, commenting would just be removed from the site. I’d rather do the job (for which I do get paid a little) than see comments done away with.
I don’t mean the comments deleted exclusively here. I had some historical discussions on YouTube. A couple of times they blocked me from YouTube altogether, though it was purely scientific discussions. It is impossible to separate the history from the politics. Thats why.
Lenin’s farther was half Mordvin, half Kalmyk. Lenin’s mother was half German, half Jew. No Russians found there.
General Secretary of Party wasn’t so important position at that time. Lenin was the number one in Party until his death. Because Lenin was the main ideologue. In time of Civil War, the most important man in Party was Trotsky. Once the war finished Lenin was again the number one. After Lenin’s death, Trotsky became the boss. Then the struggle for the power happened. Zinoviev and Kamenev against Trotsky. Stalin sided with Zinoviev and Kamenev. They toppled Trotsky. Meanwhile Stalin promoted his supporters closer to the Party’s Olimpo and in 14th Party Congress (end of 1925) toppled those two. In 1926 Stalin became the number one.
It was not just top of Party. After the victory of The Red, the state bureaucracy was filled mostly with this particular ethnic group.
How it is possible to return to 2014 lines after 4 regions of former Ukraine Soviet Republic became a part of Russia? Those people who are talking such a nonsense should be sacked straight away.
You must trust Father Time. Economic turmoil, and harsh winter tends to make people more flexible.
A good case can be made that two of those regions (Donetsk and Luhansk) legitimately became “part of Russia” by popular demand.
Kherson and Zaporizhia are just militarily occupied by Russian invaders. They’re not “part of Russia” and it’s unlikely that they will be.
Why American opinion should be for them more important than opinion of Russia and their own opinion? They had a referendum, majority decided to join Russia and that is all.
They invaded and then conducted a fake “referendum” at gunpoint, which unsurprisingly delivered the result they wanted.
It was a dumb move that makes it more difficult for them to climb out of the sling they got their ass in. But they will climb out eventually.
It looks you fed too much with disinformation. To understand how people are feeling in the east and the south of Ukraine about that, you may look how they voted before the coup 2014. For example, the presidential elections 2004 and 2010. You can see what support in those regions had the pro-western candidates and what had pro-Russian. Or maybe you believe, after the coup and all those repressions which followed this coup, the people over there became more pro-western? It is exactly other way around. Some politically active people, who participated in the coup on the western side, changed their mind and now they are pro-Russian. Because what happened after 2014 was disappointing to all more or less adequate people who for some reason in 2014 supported the coup.
Is it possible that in a free and fair election, the people in those two oblasts would choose to secede from Ukraine and become part of Russia? Yes.
Was there a free and fair election? No. There was an “election” held at gunpoint under military occupation, with “international observers” hand-picked by the occupying regime.
In the Donetsk and Luhansk republics, the situation is somewhat different in that they seceded eight years ago and whether the majority really wanted that or not, the eight years of war have likely driven out as refugees most of those who didn’t.
The other difference is that Russian forces can probably secure and hold the LPR and DPR, but continue to prove that they can’t secure and hold Kherson and Zaporizhia.
Wait few months and you will see that Russian forces can secure not only those two regions, but, at least, 4 more. As I said before, those who 10 years ago were pro-Russian, hardly they changed their mind after 8 years of the far-right Russo-phobic dictatorship. Once liberated, they can decide their destiny themselves.
At the rate this is going, in a few months, Russia will embarrassingly lose more territory to Ukraine. I’m willing to make a bet with you.
Let’s set end of the year, and whoever loses, makes $50-$100 donation to Antiwar.com.
Should you accept the challenge, we can discuss the simple details.
The end of this year is not the end of the war. Russian counteroffensive, most likely, will start in December and hardly the progress will be fast. It may take few months.
Who knows how the Europeans will influence the war when they are revolting against their incompetent, and corrupt governments. NATO is crumbling already. And there is China and the Biden effort to provoke China.
By now it has become a global issue, including the global economy.
European pro-American elite will follow American oligarchy anyway. The people can revolt, but hardly they can change the economic situation.
I don’t see any sign of the crumbling of NATO. Meloni, for example, confirmed Italian determination to stay with NATO. Even Turkey has no reason to leave NATO.
The more and more people are opposing NATO, and demonstrations against NATO have just begun. The French and German governments are in trouble due to their policies, UK had several PM, Hungary and Turkey are causing problems. The people are opposed to all the sanctions and the EU adds more sanctions. All the hidden problems are bubbling up in public.
NATO has no chance to win the war against Russia. Americans don’t care about that. At the moment EU money are moving to America. Actually, US is robbing EU the way the empires were robbing their colonies.
Russian victory in Ukraine means a geopolitical defeat of US, but the real losers are the citizens of EU. So, US can accept it. Nothing new. They had it not so long time ago in Afghanistan. The hysteria around it is created for keeping EU people in line.
Russia looks set to capture the House and that really could alter the dynamic in Ukraine.
Which house? Not tracking this.
Congress
Nah, I’m not convinced it will change. This is all just rhetoric to please the Tucker Carlson/Trump base.
“At the rate this is going”… That rate is daily recaptioned by the Biden White House. Problem is no one knows what the “true rate” is.
Something I do know is that the Russians are just as tough as their adversaries. You are just sitting in the bleachers.
The Russians are fighting for their country, they beat Hitler’s Wehrmacht, it took years and millions of lives but they won. NATO already crumbles, they would go to war against their own interests, they are not likely do that. Biden and the UK may have to go it alone.
Russians love their country, why can’t Americans believe that?
Russians are fighting for their country?
GTFOH with this BS.
You sound like the Kremlin.
You are right. Russia is ready for the fight. This time Russia is better prepared for a big war than in 1941.
“Is it possible that in a free and fair election, …
Was there a free and fair election? No.”
Irrelevant. Matters not.
Once there is resort to force, superiority of force is dispositive. Russian force — propaganda notwithstanding — dominates the battlespace.
The US and its European vassals are failing domestically. The US and NATO proxy war is failing militarily. The coming of General Winter and General Armageddon will increase the “pain” until the end of the war is achieved in the form of Ukrainian capitulation.
Reality, what a concept!
“Russian force — propaganda notwithstanding — dominates the battlespace.”
Someone forgot to let the Russians know that.
There is snark, and there is fact. One of us is in for some serious cognitive dissonance. Shall we revisit the matter when the daffodils bloom?
” The short, golden ‘February Gold‘ is an early spring daffodil that was first introduced in 1923; a good early to mid-spring variety is ‘Barrett Browning‘ with its ivory petals and small, dark-orange cups; lots of tiny cream and gold flowers cover the mid-spring bloomer ‘Minnow‘; ‘Ambergate‘ is a mid-to late-spring bloomer with tangerine and dark orange flowers; finally, ‘Sir Winston Churchill‘ is a fragrant, double-flowered daffodil that blooms late. And, if you plant all of these, you can enjoy happy sunny daffodils in your garden from February to May!”
… and then the poppies:
In Flanders fields the poppies grow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place;
…
We are the Dead.
Short days ago
We lived,
felt dawn,
saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved,
and now we lie,
… In Flanders fields.
It will always be up for revisitation. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong, and time will prove the matter one way or another.
But in the meantime you assert “facts” which no one here can personally know about. To that extent, to coin a phrase among the Biden crowd, you are a Zelensky apologist/supporter. Repeating unsubstantiated rumors is 90% of Biden’s support, not to mention our eventual demise as a believable advocate for conflict resolution.
Which factual claims have I made that “no one here can personally know about?” Which “rumors” have I repeated?
I’m not uncritically citing either side’s claims as to casualty/equipment destruction figures, or anything of the sort.
To the best of my recollection, the next positive thing I say about Zelenskyy will be the first positive thing I say about Zelenskyy, while I’ve said numerous positive things about Putin. Does that make me a Putin supporter/apologist?
I haven’t read all of your comments so I can’t say. You seem to be neutral re some of this topic, but when any of us asserts that we have knowledge enough to characterize what is actually transpiring there – on site – I am skeptical. No one here has convinced me they know anything about the progress of this war as it is being fought on the ground day by day. Hence, no one knows how it is going – on either side here. Rumor has been and will continue to constitute the facts on the ground there. Just my opinion.
Well, let’s take an example: The Ukrainian offensives around Kharkiv and Kherson.
Both the Ukrainian and Russian regimes seem to be claiming that the Ukrainian forces are “gaining ground.” Or at least that was the case as of a couple of weeks ago. When both regimes agree on something that doesn’t sound that great for one of them, I assume there’s at least some truth to it.
BUT: My reply to the triumphalists who were yelling that this means the Ukrainians are “winning” has been: Not so fast. It’s entirely possible that the Russian forces are retreating in good order, not being routed, and that they’re doing so for the express purpose of letting the Ukrainian forces over-extend themselves while the Russian forces consolidate, after which Ukrainian forces at the end of long supply lines get cut off by Russian forces at the end of short supply lines.
My opinion that the Russian forces can’t hold the Kherson and Zaporizhia oblasts and are going to have to focus on securing LPR/DPR and a land corridor to Crimea isn’t based on any single development. It’s based on nearly eight months of the Russian forces not having yet completely secured LPR/DPR.
The alleged smallness of the “partial mobilization,” not any particular single development, makes me continue to think that securing a ceasefire line of control encompassing LPR/DPR and the land corridor , as opposed to trying to hold the other two oblasts, take Odessa, etc. is what this is going to end up being all about.
As an anarchist, I have no preference for the Kyiv regime over the Moscow regime or vice versa. I’m just parsing the facts as best I can discern them in support of idle, but at least semi-informed, speculation.
Many people don’t believe there was a free and fair election in the USA either.
And they’re right. The US hasn’t ever really done free and fair elections, and certainly not since the 1890s.
The Biden people do all they can to get NATO involved, they will not allow the Ukrainians to surrender. Biden is determined to get control over Russia’s natural resources, until the last NATO member standing goes down. Biden would use nuclear weapons, why else does he talk it up?
Free and fair elections are a matter of one’s definitions and prejudices.
More a Washington term of art.
Do you really think that the people in the Donbass region, who are ethnic Russians, and who have been relentlessly shelled by the Neo-Nazi government of Ukraine for 8 years, with a loss of life of 14,000 people, wanted to remain part of Ukraine instead of Russia? If you believe that, then I have some ocean front property in Arizona that I’d like to sell you. From my front porch you can see the sea.
Mary, do you have a source for the 14,000 people who were killed by the neo Nazi Ukrainian shelling? Because I have asked nearly every d- mn person here who has cited that number and so far I’ve gotten an unrelated Wikipedia article and an unrelated speech by Poroshenko. So I would absolutely love to know where you got this number from because nobody else seems to know.
It has been reported in MSM many times and no one has ever denied it. All independent Journalists reported it, the NYT even used to call the neo-Nazis by that name until after the Regime Change. The Azov people are neo-Nazis.
OK, let’s see one single article stating that the Ukrainians killed 14000 people.
Don’t get reticules. Do your own research, I do not work for you.
Oh, I’ve looked, believe me. But I’m sure you’ve verified this information, right?
You did not look good enough, the UN confirmed it too, more important no one ever denied it.
I’ve seen that 14,000 people died over a 7-year time span. I have never seen any verification that they were all civilians or all Russians, or that the Ukrainians all killed them. So it’s rather disingenuous to keep citing that claim when you can’t back it up.
It wasn’t 14,000 civilians. It was, according to a mix of sources, about 3,400 civilians, about 4,400 Ukrainian troops, about 6,500 LPR/DPR troops, and about 500 Russian troops.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War
You’re right, I misspoke and have edited my post. Still recovering from foot surgery and I’m amazed at how out of it the anesthesia has made me days later!
What do tiny purses have to do with anything?
There is no “research” that says the Ukrainians killed 14,000 civilians.
There is UN “research” that says Ukrainian troops and separatist/Russian troops killed 14,000 — most of them each other, some of them civilians.
The reports are about some 14 000 people were killed during the 7 year civil war in the Donbas region. Government Ukrainian troops against Russian speaking Ukrainians. UN research that is a political oxymoron.
The Minsk I &II agreements were meant to end that civil war by allowing the Russian speaking people autonomy including the right to speak their language and their culture.
But Zelensky tossed the Minsk contracts.
Which reports? Because there are none saying that Ukrainians killed 14,000 Russian civilians. If you think there are, either provide them or admit you’ve fallen prey to propaganda.
Because even Tass doesn’t claim 14,000 civilians were killed. https://tass.com/society/1408947
At a certain point, it becomes hard to see much return on investment from arguing facts with someone who believes what they want to believe because it’s what they want to believe.
I agree that I’m not going to change the minds of any posters here. It’s far easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled.
But I believe that there are generally far more people who read than who post. And I think that if they keep seeing that these folks can’t back up their assertions, ever, then at least some of them are going to doubt that narrative. And maybe look into it a bit themselves.
My fiancé and I had a great discussion the other day about critical thinking. Are people that much worse at it nowadays? He thinks they are. I, on the other hand, believe that people are not only exposed to far more information nowadays than ever before, that many of them are unequipped to parse, but that it is far less filtered than it ever was before. (For better or worse, in pre-internet days, you generally had a reporter, an editor, a TV producer, etc., making decisions about what was and wasn’t reliable and/or newsworthy.)
That is why teaching critical thinking to my own kids is so important to me. “What sources did this information come from? How trustworthy are those sources? Do any of them have a reason to try to persuade you that this information is true or false? Does it line up with what you already know to be true? is anyone disputing this, and if so, who?” In fact, I may use this “fact” as a lesson for them later today and see if they’re less gullible than certain commenters 😆
https://www.crisisgroup.org/content/conflict-ukraines-donbas-visual-explainer
That just says, “ The armed conflict in Eastern Ukraine started in 2014. Between then and early 2022, it had already killed over 14,000 people.” it doesn’t say who died or who killed them, or even that they were all civilians.
In fact, the UN report says: “OHCHR estimates the total number of conflict-related casualties in Ukraine from 14 April 2014 to 31 December 2021 to be 51,000–54,000: 14,200-14,400 killed (at least 3,404 civilians, estimated 4,400 Ukrainian forces, and estimated 6,500 members of armed groups).”
So in reality, less than a quarter were civilians, and there is no evidence that they were all Russian, or all killed by Ukrainians, or all killed by shelling. In fact, at least a thousand were killed, tragically, by landmines or ERWs.
And if that doesn’t convince you, even Tass doesn’t claim that 14,000 civilians died. Stop believing everything read in the AW comments.
The people in the Donbass region, most of whom are ethnic Russians, have been the ones under attack from Kiev. In fighting back, they have killed Ukrainians. Call it collateral damage.
“Most of them” are not ethnic Russians. Not even half of them are in the Donetsk oblast.
But I like how you ignored the fact that your numbers are wildly off, and that even Russian state media doesn’t claim they’re that high.
Go ahead and believe whatever you want. It’s no skin off of my nose.
Well it’s no skin off mine either, if you want to keep believing things that aren’t true, but I personally prefer to know the facts before I share them.
OK. Who fired the first shot after Minsk I was signed?
Was that what we were discussing? Or were we discussing the alleged 14,000 civilian deaths?
You were talking about knowing the facts. Give me the facts on who started the shelling causing 14,000 deaths since you are so smart.
I see. Having been proven wrong in your previous assertion, and being unable to admit it, you’ve moved on to a new talking point. Of course, it doesn’t matter what evidence I provide, because you won’t believe it. But for the benefit of others, the answer is that it was violated by both sides. That’s per:
Al Jazeera: “However, the agreement quickly broke down,with violations by both sides.”
Minsk expert Duncan Allen: “ The announcement of a ceasefire had little effect. As fighting continued, Russia bolstered the DNR/LNR regimes to make them invulnerable to renewed pressure from Ukraine, and thus avoid a repetition of the summer crisis. … To strengthen the legitimacy of the regimes, ‘presidential’ and ‘parliamentary’ elections were held on 2 November, before the date stipulated in the temporary law on special status. Although this violated the Minsk-1 agreement, the results enabled the installation of new Moscow-backed local leaders.”
SkyNews: “ Both sides have regularly accused each other of breaking the ceasefire since it was reached on September 5.”
But if you have some super secret insider information about who fired the very first shot after Minsk I was signed, please share with the rest of the world. Because no one else seems to know about it.
Yah, sure, you betcha.
A dazzling retort.
“Shelling” is pretty specific.
For the first month or so after the declarations of secession in 2014, the fighting seems to have involved small arms, tear gas, etc. At some point toward the end of that period, the Ukrainian regime forces started using attack helicopters.
It was in early June that Russian regime forces began moving tanks and artillery into the region; DPR president Denis Pushilin claimed at that time that Ukrainian forces were already using artillery. Ukrainian regime forces (and Russian regime forces, and DPR regime forces) were certainly using artillery (“shelling”) by late June at the battle of Yampil, after which the Ukrainian regime declared a unilateral ceasefire, which lasted for a week.
Thanks for the facts.
Mike Whitney presents a good, factual timeline today on The Unz Review.
That would make a good song.
Well, since I specifically said pretty much exactly the opposite, it should be obvious that no, that’s not what I think.
But of course the ethnicity of people in the Donbas region is (or, pre-2014, was) mixed, a little over half Russian. And they’ve been relentlessly shelled by both Ukrainian and Russian/Russian proxy forces, not just by Ukrainian forces, for eight years. And as I said, I suspect that most of those who preferred to be ruled from Kyiv probably left the area as refugees since 2014, leaving a majority that prefers to be ruled from Moscow rather than from Kyiv.
I had an interesting conversation just by chance with a Ukrainian who now resides in Ca. He grew up in the east and still has family there (Donetsk, if memory serves). He told me that Kiev treated his people like dirt, that most of the people in the East simply wanted to be able to speak and carry on their lives using Russian, to be able to educate their children as ethnic Russians should they choose to do so, and to have as little as possible to do with the Kiev crowd. Their attachment to the notion of being part of the EU was non-existent. They wanted autonomy, not Russian citizenship. But he said, that feeling evaporated with the American manufactured coup.
I don’t know any Ukrainians at the moment. I used to work with and around a few when I lived in St. Louis, but we weren’t close enough to stay in touch. I have one friend in Russia, but haven’t heard from him in years. He was kinda sorta anti-Putin, but not in an active way. He just wanted to live under the radar. So I’m not getting firsthand opinions from people in or from the region.
The Ukrainian regime certainly has plenty to answer for. I’m hoping there’s a way for ALL the involved regimes to lose this thing badly and embarrassingly enough that they decide to knock the imperialism crap off for a while. But that’s unlikely.
The Minsk I & II were about just that and Zelensky tossed them out with American support, because it was not in American interests to end the civil war. Ukraine is being used by the USA/UK to get their paws around the Russian resources, like LG and OIL and the European market. The NONNEGOTIABLE reason of the war, it was not about NATO membership, never.
There was plenty of reporting and first hand witnesses of those elections and no one saw guns pointed at anyone. Whatever the merit of election that kind of statement and argument is just inflammatory and not going to make you ever come across as the smart guy in the room. And fact is even Odessa voted in a majority of Russian sympathizers in recent elections (including it’s corrupt mayor who maintains an address in Russia). Of course those parties weren’t outlawed upon the war and have since changed their name.
And plenty of people reported that they did see that. Maybe you should stop reading something besides Russian state media
It was the trap the Americans put out for the Ukrainians starting with Bush in 2008, they needed Ukraine to provoke Russia, they want to control Russian resources. To get that, Biden needs a Regime Change and a broken Russia.
That is the reason a negotiated settlement is not possible, it is not in American interests.
Why do you mention Biden every time? Biden or no Biden, the anti-Russian crusade will carry on anyway.
Biden deserves to be mentioned as often as Putin, he is the president and was already involved as VP in the regime change 2014, he could have prevented this disaster if he had wanted to. He is responsible the same way Putin is held responsible. It is Biden’s war, he did all he could to get it. He now is busy to start provoking China.
I do agree, the anti -Russian crusade will continue, demonizing Putin will continue. The war is very profitable for the oil giants and the MIC why stop it?
Putin is responsible for his great contribution in the conversion of the unipolar world into the multipolar one. Don’t be too cross with him about that. It is a natural process. Asia is rising. The West is declining.
Pure unadulterated propaganda from our war department. Do you have an actual background of any sort in foreign affairs?
Depends on what you mean by “foreign affairs.” My old job description was “travel to exotic foreign destinations, meet interesting people, and kill them.” And I’ve spent a good deal of time in studying international relations. But at present the only high-falutin’ think tank I have a title with is one I founded.
I only inhabited Germany for eight years and visited in Europe and the ME. I don’t own any think tanks, and consider my opinions to be anti-tank weapons 😉
I just wish I could find a billionaire family to fund the damn thing. It doesn’t take in nothing, but neither does it take in enough to, say, pay the mortgage on a 30-year loan on a $50k home.
Are you one of the people John Perkins described in his book? If so, what a strange little world we live in.
I’ve never heard of John Perkins. And whoever he is, I doubt he’s heard of me.
He wrote the “the new confessions of an economic hit man” copyright 2016 it made the NYT bestseller, great reading and still current.
Except they are already part of Russia. Self determination is part of the UN charter. Russia is protecting the ethnic Russians from ethnic cleansing and genocide.
The inconvenient truth is that NATO is an occupying force, holding territory only through unmitigated brutality against local populations.
If Ukraine wants to be sovereign again they need to remove NATO/US occupiers who overthrew the government in a bloody coup and started the ethnic cleansing of the Donbass. The US Rand Corporation documented the process prior to the events happening,
I’ve heard a lot of people make the case that Russians are just invaders and that Kherson and Zaporizhia are “not part of Russia and it’s unlikely that they will be.” None are credible.
It is not about Ukrainian interests, it is all about Russian resources, OIL and Gas is not negotiable, Biden wants all of it, he wants unconditional surrender nothing less than that.
The last thing Biden wants is Russian oil and gas. His job is to keep oil prices high while pretending he wants them low.
If they control energy, they control the price and they can weaponize it without consequences in return. Control of energy comes with power. See NS I and NS II. With deindustrializing the German economy goes the EU, a market of about 500 million. That is why China has to go, they have a market of 1.3 B. a BIG TECH COMPETITOR. India could be a problem later, but the USA would have had time to coerce the Asian nations. And Europe will be dust, like the ME. If it goes a planed. The Saudis are a bit of a problem now.
But the Rand corporation will figure out how to do it.
Look at who the “source” is.
That is not what the war is about. It is about Russian resources, oil and gas, and that is not negotiable, that is what Biden wants and why it is Biden’s war. The blow-up of the pipelines could not say it more clearly.
The sabotage of Nord Stream was directed more against Germany than against Russia. Russia will sell the gas through other pipelines.
Of course, the western oligarchs would like to rob Russian natural resources. What is no less important, the miliary industry oligarchs need wars and warmongering anyway. American military budget is the main source of their wealth and their power. The peace is disastrous for them because it could mean a drastic reduction of the military budget. It is not Biden war; it is American oligarchy war.
Germany is an ally and they were stabbed in the back by their ally. Sanction are killing the EU economies, you think people will take that from the governments they elected? There has to be corruption, the officials are not as stupid as they act. Using sanctions to blackmail your allies is bad politics to say the least.
Biden serves the oligarchs, actually he is one of them. Our congress people and government officials are millionaires hanging out in Davos every year. They use the same revolving doors with Finance, MIC, and media corporations, changing from politicians to becoming board members and lobbyists with million $$$ salaries.
Yes, our government is as corrupt as all the others, all three branches are corrupt. They are above the law.
EU political elite is pro-American. They have their benefits too. So, they will carry on with pro-American (pro-oligarchy) policy. They are not much different from those congress people you described. If something goes wrong and the socialists (real socialists, not such as Spanish Socialist Workers’ Party) try to take the power, US always can use Latin American scenario. Or Ukrainian, which is not much different from Latin American. It works.
You are right, the NATO elite is just as corrupt, the same war profiteers all over, corrupt. Ursula von der Leyen’s husband was a Stanford faculty member, they have 7 children and all live in the USA. She was born in Belgium, her father was gov. of Saxony, she does not care about the people, only her ambition counts. She is a disaster for Germany. Money and connections put her where she is.
Zelensky and the Ukrainians in power are insane.
I just heard an interview with one cabinet member and he was talking about attacking all the way to Moscow and destroying the Kremlin. Cocaine has a way of making people delusional.
Zelensky is a traitor, he is working for a foreign power. Zelensky is trapped, if he loses the assistance that he is getting from America, he would be overthrown and torn apart by Ukrainians.
Why don’t you share that interview with us? Also, you’ll be pretty amazed at some of the stuff on Russian state television. They seem quite gleeful about the prospect of starving and freezing Ukrainians.
I would love to share but it was an interview on Public radio heard while driving in Upstate New York.
Actually, it’s near impossible to know who’s winning. But for sure Russia vs Ukraine is a false construction and territorial gains/losses meaningless. Ukraine is just the useful idiot du jour, ditto NATO, Europe … and USA. Russia is fighting a post-national entity, “Davos”, whose political arm is the Neocon Party presently acting kinetically through the person of the Ukronazi Kievan regime and with an express strategy of attrition, bleeding Russia. Ukraine can burn. It’s just the first tentative, the rest will follow.
Russia, a traditional culture still believing in the ancient Platonic noumenal meanings, is at a distinct disadvantage.
In their calculation, after this war, Russia should be weaker or, may be, even collapse as an independent state. However, what we are watching now is the opposite. Russian, independent from the western partners, industry is developing very fast. The people are united around the leadership of the country. Russian army and the military industry developing stronger. The economic cooperation between Russia and Asian countries is developing faster than ever before.
Wish I could be as sanguine; but certainly hope you’re right, they’ll need it.
My fear & dread arises from my perception that a very lot of very smart people/opportunists are betting the farm on a Neocon/Neolib victory; while those few who take the opposite view do so from a moral stance. And Darwin and my experience teach that those unburdened by morality always win.
An interesting thesis. Speaking within it, I think actual warfare favors national entities over a construct like Davos. Russia has defined objectives pursued by an actual chain of command, whereas Davos is just a hate mongering power structure.
Yes, Russia is old-style, where morale and nation have transcendent significance. Neocon thinking, otoh, considers the “human factor” obsolete sentimentality. Neocon/neolib bourgeois thinking has comprehensively captured the Pentagon, Raytheon, etc.. War is just another form of production (corpses & rubble) where the goal of their soldiers and engineers is product kill-efficiency. Humans are merely a cost variable of production which they strive to minimize, while optimizing the other. Hence their production-line/battlefield is automated, designed to function with algorithms, and where the production decisions are done by chain-of-command remotely, requiring no loyalty, courage, love of homeland, etc., or even hatred, only cold calculation.
Raytheon doesn’t have an ideology, it has shareholders. An effective weapon system for them is one that makes money, and making money and winning wars are two different things. The neocon war machine pursues the first and the Russian government and its military pursues the second. Besides which pursuing total power like the neocons is more a meme than an objective.
1.)Bourgeois capitalism is an ideology.
2.)If their killing machines don’t win, they lose money.
3.)”Davos” is globalist thru n thru.
“an advisor to the commander of Ukraine’s armed forces” says the Russians want to give up. Riiight. From that source, nothing has been true.
Russia has only one way out left. It must smash Ukraine, and then impose a leader on any landlocked rump state it leaves behind.
They may not have wanted that, but now they have no other choice. It is kill or die.
Any deal now would leave Ukraine a de facto part of NATO, being rearmed by the US to NATO-standard with a flood of weapons in excess of the entire Russian defense budget. They have not potential deal left.
Negotiate they can. Only Russian terms would be unacceptable for NATO. Putin knows that and that’s why he doesn’t mind the negotiation. The negotiations are always producing a good impression upon China, India and some other Russian partners. That’s why Putin is ready for negotiations.
Not to mention, you must display negotiation attempts were made before the next phase of wrecking takes place.
Putin always says clear what his terms are. Just look his proposition to Americans last December. At the time it was called by some NATO politicians “ultimatum”. They are so accustomed to cheat that the simple idea to follow the signed agreement looks for them surrealistic.
As far as negotiations are concerned during the Vietnam war negotiations dragged on for 5 years while the war raged on. So even if negotiations begin Russia will keep pounding and taking parts of Ukraine during the process.
Look for the gloves to come off and when the ground freezes; all of Eastern Ukraine will be smashed and the Ukrainian Fascists sent packing to Galicia, Poland or beyond.
With advisors like that, Ukraine is sure to win handily! LMAO!
Another “combat veteran” talking head spewing nonsense, and an American adviser to the Ukraine armed forces commander to boot. When he says Ukraine will “not have any of it”, he means WE will not have any of it.
Exactly.
What he is saying makes no sense.
In other words, he’s a soldier of fortune, meaning he goes wherever there is fortune being shelled out.
Moscow has been very clear……..the 4 break away regions and Crimea will not be part of any discussion. They are Russian and always will be.
Ukraine joining NATO (which it defacto has, Russia is now fighting NATO in Ukraine) is a red line and has led to war. NATO knew it would lead to war and did it anyway. They are psychopaths.
NATO is sending poorly trained troops to the battlefront. And they have trailing behind them troops whose function is to shoot to kill any of those frontline poorly trained troops who try to retreat.
All of the command decisions for Ukraine’s forces in this war are being made by the U.S. Government MOD.
When“General Armageddon” Surovikin gets done with the NATO proxy war in Ukraine the population will be 50% or more lower than it is now. The kill ratio is better than 5 to one so soon Zelensky will have to flee or fight.
So far Russia has been following the American model of fighting with one
hand tied behind it’s back to win the hearts and minds of Russian
Ukrainians.
It is now national survival and all the former hearts and minds BS will fall away.
As far as negotiations are concerned during the Vietnam war negotiations
dragged on for 5 years while the war raged on. So even if negotiations
begin Russia will keep pounding and taking parts of Ukraine during the
process.
Look for the gloves to come off and when the ground freezes; all of Eastern Ukraine will be smashed and the Ukrainian Fascists sent packing to Gaalicia, Poland or beyond.
In fact, Belarus might just join in and smash Lviv to boot. They have 15,000 troops Russia has 9,000 on Ukraine’s Northern border.
Russia is running a policy of balanced escalation. Every time NATO escalates then Moscow escalates accordingly. Its a war of attrition currently.
While NATO’s recent intervention has gained some ground Russia is inflicting a 10:1 kill ratio. And NATO overall has the following equipment losses;
323 Aircraft, 161 helicopters, 2266 UAV’s, 381 Anti Aircraft systems, 5876 tanks inc APC’s, 871 multiple rocket launchers, 3485 rocket launchers and 6635 military automotive equipment.
“Rice made the comments when discussing Russia’s strikes on Ukrainian infrastructure…’They are trying to, in my opinion, trying to get to the negotiating table, to try to go back to the 2014 lines.'”
Asked by CNN’s Outfront the basis for his “opinion” regarding the precise nature of Russia’s supposed negotiating goals, the no-nonsense military advisor snarled, “I pulled it outa’ my ass – satisfied, honey? Now shut the f’ up ‘less you wanna explain to yer boss how CNN suddenly got on Ukraine’s disinformation bureau ‘black list’ of Putin lovers.”
For the past few decades, the only thing we have understood is the use of force (on others).
American Advisor to Ukraine Commander Admits He is a Complete Retard
We need to get to the core of the war. The war is between the USA and Russia. It is about Russian resources, oil and gas mainly. It is Biden’s war, he wants to get his hands on the resources and the power and wealth that come with it. RESOURCES ARE NOT NEGOTIABLE. Zelensky has nothing to say, he gets paid to do as told, and he does.
The Ukraine and NATO are cannonfodder for Biden’s war.
The decision makers are the unelected bureaucracy in State/CIA/NSA, with DOD and media thrown as as adjutants
Exactly, they are the people who write the notes for him to read, since he can’t form a coherent sentence.
But he signs on the bottom line, he is responsible.
the MIC in turn makes the decisions to pass on to the unelected bureaucrats for them to pass on to the elected officials which were picked bi the MIC, closing the circle. PERFECT.
The MIC in turn makes the decisions to pass on to the unelected bureaucrats for them to pass on to the elected officials which were picked by the MIC, closing the circle. PERFECT.
Great going, Dave. Your source is the completely baseless, zero-proof guess of a Biden operative directly involved in arming the side that has murdered more than 14,000 people in Donbass before Russia intervened, and that even now shells the city of Donetsk, the people in Kherson and the people in Crimea. Whatever this guy says is completely irrelevant, unless it begins with a confession of his complicity in these crimes.
There’s a murderer in my city who says what he thinks the police are thinking about doing next year. That would be a good article.
Every time this issue comes up it makes me think about the complete disaster the British empire was in Africa, drawing boundaries which ignore cultural and ethnic differences – out of sheer hubris and ignorance – profound enough to be long lasting and lethal.
This is what happens when you put bean counters in charge of foreign policy.
In Ukraine’s case, the ignorance and hubris were and remain west of the dividing lines…
It wasn’t the ignorance. Brits knew what they were doing. Only in Oceania they created 50 independent states which now are always voting in UN the same as UK. Some of those “independent” countries’ size is about the size of an airport and yet their voice is the same as one of India. Actually, UK has 50 voices in UN. Very smart done.
I would have guessed it was the US, not the UK… Well, there is enough there to divide it up…
Fair enough. For me it’s a little simpler. They were racists all the way through. Rule and plunder. White man’s burden.
Anglo-Saxon civilization started as a capitalist civilization. The profit is always first. The racism was profitable, that’s why it was promoted. Then, unfortunately for the capitalists, the social justice ideas started to take over the lower classes. So, it was decided to use the colored against the white working class. That’s how such things as BLM started. The migrants are also welcome.
Yes, I’ve actually lived through that 😉
Is he stupider than he is insane or more insane than stupid?
I’ve stopped listening to talking heads on MSM a long time ago. Another “expert” who knows nothing about what they’re talking about, probably failed world history in high school.
Who cares?!