CIA paramilitaries had been training Ukrainian forces on the frontlines of the Donbas war against Russian-backed separatists since 2014 and were only pulled out by the Biden administration last month, Yahoo News reported on Wednesday, citing former US officials.
The CIA first sent a small number of paramilitaries to eastern Ukraine when the war started in 2014, which was sparked by a US-backed coup in Kyiv and the Donbas separatists declaring independence from the post-coup government.
As part of the training, CIA paramilitaries taught Ukrainian forces sniper techniques, how to operate US-provided Javelin anti-tank missiles, and how to avoid being tracked on the battlefield by using covert communications and other means. The former officials said at first the CIA was surprised at the capability of Russia and the separatists compared with US adversaries in the Middle East.
The US military held similar training programs for Ukrainian forces in western Ukraine that have been publicly acknowledged. In January, Yahoo News revealed that the CIA had also been holding a US-based training program for Ukrainian forces. A former CIA official said the US-based program was training “an insurgency” and taught Ukrainians how to “kill Russians.”
The secret CIA program in eastern Ukraine was much more provocative than the other training programs since it essentially meant the US was involved in a proxy war on Russia’s border. The former officials told Yahoo News that During the first year of the Trump administration, National Security Officials reviewed the program, which had begun under the Obama administration.
The CIA paramilitaries were directed to advise and train but not participate in combat. Trump administration officials feared the authorities were too broad and that the mission was too ambiguous. One former official said questions that were asked included: “How far can you go with existing covert action authorities? If, God forbid, they’ve shot some Russians, is that a problem? Do you need special authorities for that?”
The former official said that the Trump administration discussed what Russia’s redlines could be and determined the US support for Ukrainian forces fell within historically acceptable bounds. “There was a school of thought that the Russians spoke the good old language of proxy war,” the official said.
Despite the concerns, the secret program continued for years until February. The former officials said that when a Russian invasion became “increasingly acute,” the Biden administration pulled all CIA personnel out of Ukraine, including the paramilitaries. One former official said the Biden administration was “terrified of even clandestine folks being on the frontline.”
Although it’s hard to know what the military situation looks like in Ukraine, the US claims Ukraine is putting up a much fiercer resistance than Russia expected. The former officials who spoke with Yahoo News suggested the resistance was in part thanks to the CIA training program. The US continues to fuel the fighting as President Biden has already pledged over $1 billion in new military aid for Ukraine since the invasion started.
CIA Of course! Yet another Mess!
CIA? Every time I hear this name they are training people for war somewhere. Why not change its name to central war agency?
That is too overt, whereas the “CIA” is suppose to be covert but…. If it is being done inappropriately, everyone knows who is doing it anyway: THE CIA.
But, having said that, I take your point!
Considering that the better part of the Ukraine army is trapped in a cauldron in the Donbas, it looks like the training was a complete waste of time.
They were expecting to be caudroned. Its been the Russian/Novorussian go-to tactic.
Kiev learned from previous caudronings, they seem much tougher to remove this time around.
If it comes to house to house fighting the Russian Army will be up for it , read the battle for Stalingrad , hand to hand fighting all the way , the Germans where no match for the Red Army and civilians who fought along side them.
Well, there are a couple of differences there.
One is that at Stalingrad, the Russians were fighting on, and for, their own land, not to take a foreign city. In any analogy to Ukraine, the Russians are the equivalent of the Germans.
The other is that there probably aren’t very many Stalingrad veterans in the Russian forces.
They don’t need them. That’s what the Chechens are for – experts in exactly this sort of urban warfare.
Mariupol is being cleaned up. Russian forces are in the center of the city. City should fall completely in a short time, possibly as soon as end of the weekend.
You may now add your usual irrelevant snark.
I am Russian. One of my greatgandfathers was killed in Stalingrad, the other was lost in action while freeing Lithuania in 1944. And my family history is typical.
The Russians are fighting in the Ukraine against nazis for the memory of our veterans and those fallen in the WW2. Because every Victory Day on May, 9th we cry and swear to them that we will not let nazism and facism ever rise their head again. And that’s what we teach our children. This is our responsibility, our duty to our ancestors, our tribute for their courage and their sacrifice for the sake of our mere existance. Millions of Russians died to get that Victory together with the Ukrainians as well as with all the Soviet peoples. And we are so close in blood to the Ukrainians that you’ll never find a pure Ukrainian without Russian blood or a pure Russian without Ukrainian blood, most of us being a more or less even mixture of both. We don’t care if the Ukrainians blame us for all their fails, as they were taught to within the last 30 years after the collapse of the USSR, if they think us jealous of them “closely” entering the EU and NATO. What we really cannot live with is that they let their young generations betray our common memory of our common heroic ancestors and their sacricice, that their governments licenced nazis to kill their own citizens in Donbass for 8 years and there were no Maidan about that! Almost every Russian has relatives or friends in the Ukraine, many in Donbass. We stay in touch. And we know the truth about what was happening there during those years, no propaganda can distort those first hand witnesses. It breaks our hearts to go beat our beloved brother people of the Ukraine. But the Ukraine is sick and someone has to beat this shit out of the country and people’s heads. Most of us only repent that we did not do that at once, in 2014. And the West may endlessly speculate what sanctions to impose or what levers to use to stop Russians. This is all useless. The EU and the US cannot possibly change it however hard live they promise to us. We will not stop untill this heart-breaking job is done.
And we understand that USA’s major goal is to weaken Russia at any cost, but the thing the US never understood about Russia and that is why will never win – is that we are used to threats and blows, every generation of our people had to face a yoke, an intervention, a revolution, a world war, civil war, a blockade, a starvation, a ruined country after the war or after perestroika, a collapse of country and self-identity, miserable pro-western governments, economic crises, sanctions – and it only mobilizes us and make us closer and stronger than before.
Umm, determination is admirable but Russia seems to own-goal nearly as often as they score against invaders…
House to house fighting is very different if you are liberating your own territory than if you are invading someone else’s country.
Indeed.
Russian vets will not be happy if at the end of all this, a peace settlement only sets up the next Ukraine war.
For most Russians, Stalingrad was ‘never again’, not ‘lets do this very 60 years’.
In the case of the contact line, as The Saker has said, the Ukies have been digging in for eight years. Some of their concrete bunkers are very thick and very deep. They will be dislodged but it may take a couple weeks. They can’t hold out forever without resupply and Russia is slowly controlling all the roads into the area that could be used for resupply. It’s only a matter of time and not much time.
As long as the bunkers aren’t in civilian areas, they can be bombed out.
Those that are in civilian areas, should have been deprived of resources not so securely stashed using Shock and Awe.
The second battle for Donetsk Airport lasted three months, three weeks, and two days, but the DNR did not have bombers.
Even a look at CNN map off activitiess shows ar least. 4 cauldrons.
It does not look like Ukrainian army opened a single frontt to confront Russian advance. All they talk about is defenders iof the cities. But from the look if it, keeping a town a hostage by Azov brigades as is the case in Mariupol — can also go only so far. Defenders will run out of gas, ammunition snd food. As fanatical as they are, there are going to be desertions. Outside of the town defenders that are around and embedded inside cities, where else are they stopping Russian movements? There are literraly no defense fronts that held.
Russian strategy is keeping them guessing.
Russia brought this on themselves. They should have crushed the Kiev government in 2014 and executed all of the neo nazi groups. Instead they wasted 8 years on diplomacy.
Blaming the victim doesn’t help.
Diplomacy is the normal, civilized thing to do.
That the US wasn’t agreement capable, falls a lot on American citizens as well for letting the Republic and freedom go to pot.
Tell that to Biden.
Don’t have to; Russia did, repeatedly.
Sure, they were ignored, but R2P Pillar 2 requires failure of diplomatic solutions.
The Russians made themselves victims of themselves because they are too dumb to see that diplomacy is a waste of time. Diplomacy only works when both countries are sincere. Putin and Lavrov are idiots. You can’t fix stupid.
I’ve read quite a lot about Lavrov and I think he’s quite intelligent. As to Putin, I think he sees the big picture very well. I’ve read that some in his government think he’s too moderate. Hopefully he’s gotten over that.
Lavrov could be one of those people that have a high IQ but lack common sense. Lavrov knows that Zelensky is a NATO puppet but continues to negotiate with him. He knows that even if an agreement is reached Zelensky will be ordered to ignore it, just like the Minsk Agreement. That makes him a fool, or maybe someone that enjoys banging his head against a wall, which is all this amounts to. Russia need to pound Ukraine into submission and install a government. Who cares what the “world community” thinks? And Putin recently reappointed the head of the Russian central bank who kept half of Russia’s gold and other investments in the West, where it was stolen. It is hard to imagine such stupidity! Either that, or she’s corrupt. That makes Putin either a fool or corrupt.
The growing Ukraine WMD was certainly an unplayed diplomatic card.
But then, then the world was distracted by COVID for two years.
There’s also the danger of diplomacy accelerating WMD war plans rather than resolving them.
The neocons seemed eager to turn Ukraine into a kind of Eastern European Israel, nominally non-aligned but firmly in the NATO camp and free to act.
Even now, Zelensky tries to wag the dog demanding a no-fly zone.
Your points are taken. All I can say is what I have been saying since 2014 – diplomacy is a waste of time and if Russia had invaded 8 years ago it would have been a much easier task but they were foolish enough to think that negotiations would work with a government they knew answered to NATO. Even now, they are attempting diplomacy with Ukraine. That’s inexplicably stupid!
Hindsight is always 20:20, or claims to be.
8 years ago there’s no telling what the outcome would have been of a Russian intervention.
However, for the last 8 years Russia was winning; Ukraine was a massive arms-and-money hole for NATO and ongoing diplomatic embarrassment.
Today, its the ‘International Community’ that is isolated, not Russia. Russia did not necessarily waste the last 8 years; they spent time building their wealth reserves and diplomatic alliances.
https://www.tellerreport.com/news/2022-03-18-the-chinese-foreign-ministry-mocks-the-west-s-concept-of-the-%22international-community%22.Sy-e4VrMz9.html
Ukraine grew into a second tail attempting to wag American dog as Israel does, now with demands for a no-fly zone and some level of military alliance.
It’s not hindsight, I have been saying for 8 years Russia should attack. They would have saved 14,000 lives if they attacked then, without giving the west a chance to arm Ukraine. And I assume the operation would have been easier then, because of that. And the idiot at the Russian central bank that just had half of Russia’s gold and other investments stolen because she kept them in western banks was reappointed by Putin, so Russia lost wealth.
8 years ago, Russia could not have won against Neocon NATO. The Russian intervention in Syria hadn’t even happened yet and was not even conceivable.
Today, Russia has a fighting chance against NATO soft and hard power aggression.
8 years ago Russia had no proof NATO would arm Ukraine; they would only be seen as raw aggressors.
Today, Russia does have proof of Western-sponsored Ukraine WMD programs.
8 years ago Russia was still heavily integrated into Western financial systems.
Today, only half of Russian central banking paper assets were vulnerable to seizure despite a massive anti-Russian pogrom to cancel Russia and Russians from the world social-economy.
8 years ago, China, India and most of the rest of the non-Western world could not have supported Russia against a full-spectrum NATO socio-financial-economic assault.
Today, most of the non-Western world stands behind Russia as their indispensable nation. Thanks to Russia, the world socio-economy is no longer Western-dominated.
Russia was able to catch NATO-Ukraine WMD programs still short of producing WMDs, though the full extent of the biological weapons is still unknown.
Ukraine bio-chem and nuclear warfare labs out of range of Russian occupation forces, may still produce the ‘Russian WMD’ attacks hyped by NATO.
The Neocon extremists love their psychological projection games, but the power gap hey need to win easily was closed over the last 8 years.
Russia would not have fought NATO, but Ukraine. And it would have been easier because NATO would not have the chance to arm Ukraine. They should have recognized the threat when the government was overthrown and crushed it and executed neo Nazi groups like Azov and Right Sector. And they are seen as aggressors now, so it makes no difference. Russia waiting 8 years allowed NATO to arm and train Ukraine’s military. It does not matter what proof Russia presents, because the west is lawless. They don’t care about proof, international laws, or their own laws. And the idiot head of Russia’s central bank allowed half of Russia’s gold and other investments to be stolen because she kept them in western banks, which means she is either dumb or corrupt. And Putin reappointed her, which means he is either dumb or corrupt. Russia doesn’t need anyone’s support, it needed to do the right thing. There’s nothing the world could have done about it.
Exhausting diplomatic alternatives is a pre-requisite for invoking R2P.
https://una.org.uk/r2p-detail
https://theconversation.com/ukraine-the-uns-responsibility-to-protect-doctrine-is-a-hollow-promise-for-civilians-under-fire-178661
For whatever reason the Russian are stumbling over their legal case insofar as public relations go; perhaps as a result of not actually expecting to go to war quite so soon, and still-poorly defined nature of R2P.
I generally agree, however the case has been made by some that Russia “wasn’t ready” at the time either militarily (to counter any NATO response) or economically (to counter Western sanctions.) They are ready now and that’s why the war started. In any event, it’s water under the bridge and Russia isn’t making any more mistakes of this kind.
Unless those people have accurate information from the Russian government or military, they have no way of knowing that Russia wasn’t ready. And even if they are right, it shouldn’t have taken it more than a year to prepare. It took Germany a year to prepare for the Russian invasion, which was 4 million men, and Russia less than a year to prepare the armies that invaded Berlin, which were 3 million men. But Russia DOES continue to make mistakes by continuing diplomacy with Zelensky, who they know is controlled by NATO, and will just be ordered to ignore any agreement if it is reached. And Putin recently reappointed the head of Russia’s central bank, who allowed half of Russia’s gold to be stolen because she kept it in Western banks. That’s unbelievably stupid (but a different topic).
Zelensky may just be avoiding a bullet to the head from the nazi’s.
Perhaps, they have more control than he does.
So, the CIA acknowledges they have been training the Azov battalion for the last 8 years.
Ukraine is reaping the fruits of doing the CIA’s bidding
Why does a site purportedly created to promote anti war sentiments attract so many Kremlin apologists?
Did you even read the article? And most of the comments are about the CIA which is unsurprising given the content of the article. It’s like you were just itching to make your nonsensical comment and picked a really stupid time to do it.
I did read the article. There is no excuse for this type of scorched earth war on civilians. And this is not the only article which showcases comments like yours providing unequivocal support for Putin. Shameful.
Adele ,and what about NATOS shock and AWE in Iraq, where 500,000 children where murdered , with that hariden albright saying it was worth it , the problem with people like you ,you alway`s have conveinient memory lose when it suits you , SHAMEFULL INDEED.
Yes with ugly Madeleine Albright saying “it was worth it” to allow the deaths of the children due to sanctions. The witch is still around……
The sanctions murdered 500,000 children. Shock and Awe was separate from the sanctions and had its own gaudy number of corpses left strewn about the countryside. Plus, the destruction of Iraq’s infrastructure, which was never allowed to be repaired, led to many, many deaths.
Civilian casualties, international law, the prohibition on offensive war and/or war not authorized by the UNSC, etc, etc. These, apparently, are new concepts, just recently developed. They don’t apply to past actions by the USA and its clients.
Always worth mentioning that Ukraine, and all three of the Baltic States, and Poland, basically all the countries now shrieking the loudest and the shrillest about these concepts, and the rights of small nations viz a viz Super Powers, were all members of the USA’s Coalition of the Willing, which made a mockery of those same concepts in Iraq.
It is more than a surprise that the US has belatedly found a love for “Territorial integrity”, “Sovereignty” and “human rights” while still illegally occupying a third of Syria, stealing Syrian oil. and presenting the Golan Heights to the Apartheid State.
Yes, they were part of the US’s Coalition of the Willing to destabilize the ME. They were also among those who derailed Europe’s effort for giving asylum to the refugees of the wars in the ME. To them, it is closed doors to the victims of America’s wars and red carpet for white refugees from Ukraine. They fight foreign wars allegedly to defend human rights and democracy, yet they are undermining democracy and human rights in their own country.
Ain’t Karma a bitch?
Why don’t you turn you ire on what we have done to “scorch the earth” of other countries in the last 50 years, killing hundreds of thousands, rendering millions refugees. If you do not understand the history of what our administrations since Bill Clinton have done since 1991 to bring things to the current boiling point, I suggest you hit the library. Better yet, pick another forum other than Antiwar.com, something more appropriate. I am sure you will find it.
I am not a Putin apologist, in fact I dislike the man to the max. However, he has a point, and he has chosen the last piece in the game of Risk we have been playing since 1991 to make that point. Dastardly as it is.
I am 78 and I am not too happy about the knowledge that supposed intelligent people in our government have put us on the cusp of thermonuclear war. For what? Because we can? Because we have the world surrounded with military bases? Because we can spend money on the MIC like a drunken sailor, to the tune of trillions, while our infrastructure continues to crumble, the poor are not fed. Biden could have forestalled everything back in December. All he had to do was be the peacemaker, bring Zelinski and Putin together, hammer out an agreement. He has chosen the continuation of war by another means against Russia. December 30, 1991, the flag of the Soviet Union came down, East and West Germany reunited, the flag of Russia went up. Russia thought that Russia would be part of the world community. President H.W. Bush was on the side of that idea. His Secretary of State, Baker, with the concurrent agreements of representatives of Germany, Poland et al. agreed to not move NATO one inch East. Beginning with the Clinton administration, that is exactly what has happened. The lust for doing in Russia now, by nearly all countries of the West exposes that they had no intentions of allowing that. Putin gets it. Ukraine is the last piece sought by NATO (U.S. of A.) in the monumentally game of Risk that has been played by NATO (U.S. of A.). G-d help us all……………….
Russia tries to avoid civilian casualties and announces when they will attack a civilian area that is being used by terrorists to blend in with the civilian population. In some cases, the terrorists will even kill Ukrainians and attempt to pin it on the humanitarian Russian military. The terrorists there, just use poor innocent civilians as shields, and that includes innocent women and children.
In other words, only the other side commits atrocities, and the Russians just a rare mistake.
There, now take that old canard scenario that the West has been using for decades and apply it to your fake concern for “war on civilians”.
If you call that scorched earth, you obviously are unfamiliar with actual “scorched earth” operations.
You just proved my point. I didn’t say shit about Putin.
If there was a “scorched Earth war on civilians,” all of the cities in Ukraine would be levelled and there would literally be tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of civilian casualties. As it is, not even the Ukrainians are claiming that. The Ukranian military and its neo Nazi militia components CHOSE to take their stands in the cities. In previous wars, when the defenders were not blue eyed, white skinned favorites of the West, this was called using civilians as “human shields.” See: Mosul, Fallujah, Gaza, Beirut. You can’t hunker your military forces down in a city, but then cry “civilian casualties” when the other side bombs or shells that city. It is a war crime to attack UNDEFENDED cities and other civilian areas. NOT to attack cities that have been turned into fortresses. As it is, when looked at objectively, rather than through the hysterics of US/NATO/Ukrainian propaganda, the Russians have been obviously trying to minimize civilian casualties right from the beginning. Which the USA, Israel, etc never do.
Funny how this is the first war in which civilians have been killed. I guess “collateral damage” is a term you have never heard. Go peddle your one sided, hypocritical bullshit somewhere else.
Well said.
International law requires combatants to minimize civilian casualties. Even if a civilian target has been militarized, the attacker must insure that any collateral civilian casualties are proportionate to the military value of a target. Attacking a theater or hospital packed with civilians is almost always a war crime.
https://theintercept.com/2015/10/07/a-short-history-of-u-s-bombing-of-civilian-facilities/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/apr/02/iraq.simonjeffery
Iraqi maternity hospital. Bombed by USA.
42 people killed during US bombing of hospital in Kunduz, Afghanistan.
https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/afghanistan-marking-six-years-us-attack-msf-hospital-kunduz
Hospital was well lit, and had no military presence, and was repeatedly bombed.
https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/war-comes-hospital-kunduz-and-beyond
US blames Afghans, and has a hundred other unpersuasive excuses, including accident. Oops.
No one ever held accountable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_hospital_airstrike
Saudis bomb multiple hospitals in Yemen:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airstrikes_on_hospitals_in_Yemen
And the Saudis and Russians are both war criminals.
And the Americans? And the Israelis?
Everyone is a war criminal. And yet, who has actually been convicted, sentenced and punished for the crime of attacking a hospital? According to you, it is a slam dunk, open and shut case. Attack a hospital = war crime. There are clearly many, many example of hospitals being attacked in modern warfare. And I tried to find any war crime convictions for those attacks. Certainly, there are no high profile ones. And of all the cases I presented (US, Israeli, Saudi), and, yes, Russia too (in Syria), not one resulted in anyone being convicted of a war crime.
So, your stance seems just a little too convenient, a little pat, and a little too one sided.
Listen guy, I’ve opposed US, NATO and Israeli war crimes for almost 60 years. I have been arrested and beaten several times protesting the Vietnam War, I was part of an anti war mob in DC that stormed the Justice Department in DC around 1969 and I was tear gassed a few blocks from the Capitol in demonstrations that made January 6th look like a picnic. I think this is the first time I’ve protested Russian war crimes since the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. I supported the Viet Cong, but I opposed torturing American POW’s. Being antiwar means being antiwar even when your side commits atrocities. War and genocide are the two worst things humans do. You are treating this war like it is a soccer match. That is infantile. US and Israel are worse than Putin. But a war of aggression is a crime against humanity. Period.
Again, it’s not really all about you, pal. Nor the alleged lifelong struggle of a pseudonymous internet poster. The whole world is going f’ing crazy over this one Russian instance, whereas all of it, the wars of aggression, the attacks on hospitals, the civilian casualties, the casual disregard for international law, and the scorn for sovereignty, borders, and territorial integrity, all of it, is, in fact, as you imply, Standard Operating Procedure for the USA and its empire.
I don’t think this is a “soccer match.” It could turn into WWIII precisely because Twitter and Facebook and the lockstep media and the Western governments and their lackeys ARE treating it like a football game. “We” just can’t let Putin “win.” And hooray for us. And it is that rabid, partisan hysteria, far, far and away beyond what all of the USA’s similar and worse actions have produced, that has me worried and scared.
I want less grandstanding about how bad Putin is and more introspection about our own actions. Fewer denunciations and accusations and confident, but grossly ill informed, barstool, pronunciamundos about who is guilty of what, and more efforts to restore peace on the basis of what’s fair and reasonable. Period.
Israel bombs hospitals:
https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1300
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/21/mapping-gaza-hospitals-schools-refugee-camps-palestine
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/middle-east-unrest/another-gaza-hospital-hit-israeli-strike-four-dead-40-hurt-n161086
Israel attacks ambulances:
https://www.hrw.org/legacy/backgrounder/mena/qana1206/4.htm
Israel, Russia, the US, Saudi Arabia, the UAE and NATO all commit war crimes when they bomb civilian targets like hospitals, schools, apartment complexes or theaters. I am bothered when some people on this site try to justify Russia’s war crimes.
The US/NATO and Ukraine deliberately provoked Russia by threatening its security. But the fact that the USA, NATO and Ukraine were wrong, does not justify Russia launching a preemptive war against another country.
War and genocide are the ultimate evils. There is no justification for war except self defense against a real or imminent attack or to oppose holocaust level genocide.
It is easy for you to just say, “Well, they are all (American, NATO, Saudi, Israeli, etc) war criminals too.” The Saudi and UAE atrocities are on-going. The Israeli ones are endemic. And the American and NATO ones span the globe. But nobody made any effort in the past, nor are they making any now, to bring them to bar.
Selective enforcement never makes for justice.
Biden says, “Putin is a war criminal.” He doesn’t say, “And so am I. As were my predecessors Trump, Obama, Bush and Clinton. As is the Saudi King. And the Emirs. And the Israeli PM.” No, it’s all about Russia and only about Russia.
And that’s what we deal with here. What the USA and NATO are doing. NOT what internet commenter “Skywalker” is doing. You may be consistent, but they are not. They are hypocrites, even if you, as an individual human person, are not.
It has been a long, hard road to hold sovereign nations and their leaders accountable for crimes against humanity and to define universally accepted norms of behavior. Rooting for our favorite war criminals is the road back to barbarism.
Europe ended religious wars by the end of the 17th century, In the Eighteenth century absolute monarchies were replaced by republics or constitutional monarchies in the West and eventually in most of the world. Europe and the US outlawed slavery in the 19th century and today slavery is illegal under international law and the laws of most nations,, Following WWI and WWII the world ended most forms of colonialism and outlawed wars of conquest and bio chemical weapons. We also tried and executed perpetrators of the Nazi and Tojo war crimes and genocide. In 1948 the UN defined and outlawed all forms of genocide. In the later 20th century the Women’s Liberation movement spread worldwide.
When you condone war crimes you are following the path that leads back to the barbarism that animated Joseph Conrad’s Heart of Darkness. The survival and uplift of our species requires us to identify, condemn and oppose war crimes whether committed by our own country or our allies or our heroes.
I support Russia’s legitimate security demands. And I recognize how Biden is doing his best to provoke and prolong a war that serves NATO’s interest as well as Biden’s political interest. But Putin crossed a red line when he launched a preemptive war of choice against a country that had not attacked Russia and did not have the capacity to attack Russia.
Putin has isolated his country, strengthened the anti-Russian sentiment in the Ukraine and engendered a nationalist resistance that will eventually defeat the Russian occupation. Even China will not support Russia in this folly.
“But Putin crossed a red line when he launched a preemptive war of choice against a country that had not attacked Russia and did not have the capacity to attack Russia.”
USA does this routinely. Grenada, Panama, Serbia, Iraq, Libya, Syria. Etc. Russia doing so in the Ukraine is no more some kind of departure from norms whose violations are actually punished, than is the bombing of hospitals. The USA crosses that “red line” so often that it is as obliterated as a chalk line on a sports field after a torrential downpour.
The only thing different “this time” is that Russia is doing it. Same with the hospitals.
I don’t “condone” war crimes. Nor aggressive war. But I won’t act like Captain Reynaud and pretend to be shocked by Russia’s violations of these norms when my own country and its allies violate them like commuters violate the speed limit on the freeway.
“The only thing different ‘this time’ is that Russia is doing it.”
Exactly.
And a whole lot of people who were against the US imperialist wars on Grenada, Panama, Serbia, Iraq, Libya, Syria. Etc. are offering the same justifications for Putin’s imperialist war on Ukraine that they rightly reject when proffered by Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton, Bush 43, Obama, Trump, and Biden.
Funny, but what I see are a whole lot of people treating “this time” as if it were sui generis. The end of the world. Justifying risking WWIII to stop it. An unprecedented crossing of a “red line,” rather than what it really is. Which is no different from those other instances.
And what I see coming from you and Skywalker is accusing anyone who points out that gross disparity in reactions as “justifying” or “condoning” this instance. Rather than pointing out the disparity, and trying to analyze where it comes from and why.
Is killing of more than 13 000 “separatists” in Donbass since 2014 by neo nazis a holocaust enough level genocide – in your expert opinion? 80% of them being civillians! Or there need to be more Donbass blood to melt your heart? The Ukraine concentrated their military forces, well trained to kill by their US patrons and started to shellfire Donbass territory on February, 23rd and they spoke about plans “to finally end with the topic” later on, in March-April, 2022. This was all in open source media, and I don’t mean Russian media, no – the Ukrainian officials’ ones.
Is NATO countries overthrowings the governtment and pumping our neighbouring country with weapons, nato being an organization that call us the ultimate evil and the enemy, is the US training our neighbour’s most extremist groups to kill Russians – is that still not imminent enough for you?
Why don’t you stop being bothered and finally bother to find out what the government you have so much sympathy with were doing to their own citizens for 8 years and how they planned to execute those other-minded people on there own native land. And why don’t you try and find out the truth about those civillian objects, from first hand sources, not from the Russian or Ukrainian official media that are biased. The difficulty is that very few real witnesses speak English, but if you really need to know the truth you’ll find a way.
Ukraine was being built into an armed WMD threat against Russia and poised to attempt again, to eliminate Russian Ukrainians in the Donbass using neo-Nazi forces primed ideologically to commit genocide.
Add to that, Ukraine was NATO-aligned, but not part of NATO, meaning they could act on NATO’s behalf without NATO ever having to take direct responsibility.
There’s a kind of false equivalency propaganda that says its OK to be a violent troll but any higher level of violence is more wrong, which is not the case.
Its part of Anglo-Western hipster irony culture to counter-time intelligent compassion against intelligent compassion using clever emotional manipulation to separate intelligent emotion from intelligence.
At one level, a racist will try and demonstrate against all other tells, that they are not racist by pointing out they have black friends.
At the next level, bullies highlight the tragedy of suicide by bullying as a kind of martyrdom, such that the only noble response to bullying is not to fight back effectively.
Committing suicide rather than harm the bully somehow demonstrates better, how much more one values human life.
“There’s a kind of false equivalency propaganda that says its OK to be a
violent troll but any higher level of violence is more wrong, which is
not the case.”
There is actually good reason to oppose just wars. The consequences of just wars are usually worse than the casus belli. Russia’s security is important to the anti-imperialist/anti-war cause. But not so important as to justify a war of aggression. This is not an arbitrary standard, but a near universal recognition that the consequences of modern war are so terrible that they are not worth it – especially when one of the two superpowers believes it is facing an existential crisis.
Second, Russia has become isolated to the point that even China is making it clear that they will not support Russia’s war effort and even Cuba, Vietnam, Nicaragua and Bolivia won’t stand with Russia on this one. This, plus the sanctions, will have long term damaging effect on Russia. The US/EU and Japan are in a strong position to wage economic warfare against Russia and China is not yet ready to challenge US global hegemony. China’s policy for over 70 years has been to defer conflict with the West because China believes that as the ascendant superpower time is on its side.
Finally, there is the law of blowback. Russia can’t win this war. Of course they will destroy the Ukrainian military if they choose. But they will not be able to leave and the occupation will engender the nationalist resistance which will bleed Russia dry and break their will, like in Afghanistan or Vietnam.
Unfortunately there is a cognitive dissonance between Russians and Ukrainians. After Rus’s destruction by the Mongols in the 13th centruy Ruthenia was severed from Russia. Ruthenia became a patchwork of principalities, city-states and dependent feudal fiefdoms that for centuries suffered under overlords from Russia, Poland, Lithuania, Hungary, Austria, Turkey, the Mongols, the Golden Horde, the Tatars and the dreaded Cossacks. Meanwhile, the Duchy of Moscow became the Russian Empire where the Czar in 1547 proclaimed that he was the Czar of all the Russians people everywhere. Putin, like most great Russians regard the Ukrainians and the Russians as one people. The Ukrainians do not and had a separate national identity long before achieving independence in 1991. Great Russian chauvinists just don’t understand that Ukrainian nationalism is rooted in a sense of persecution by foreign overlords. The most recent and most resented foreign overlord is Russia.
Putin fell into the trap that Biden and NATO planned. As Stalin learned before him, power politics is more like a multiple choice test than an essay question. Most of us prefer essay questions because sometimes none of the choices seem right and you wind up taking the least bad choice. Putin wouldn’t tolerate a weaponized NATO client in the middle of Russia or the persecution of Russian speakers in Donbas. But by invading Ukraine he committed the Russian military to a war it cannot win, turned his country into a pariah state and exposed it to economic consequences and isolation that it cannot sustain. Another consequence of Putin’s war is that Putin gave the US and NATO an opportunity to operate freely in the Middle East and Africa since Russia will not be able to come to the aid of Syria orto be a military factor in Africa in the foreseeable future.
So Russia is tied down, diplomatically isolated and sanctioned while NATO has not committed a single soldier to the fight. And more NATO weapons are flowing into the Ukraine and NATO’s eastern front than would have if Putin had chosen to struggle diplomatically against the weaponization of the Ukraine.
Russia’s war against Ukraine is against international law, and against Russia own self interest.
Its an ambitious statement to say Russia can’t win Biden’s Bearbait Ukraine war.
They are winning, just very slowly.
Ukrainian forces were groomed to fight a prolonged passive-aggressive war of attrition, to be another Russian Afghanistan in Eastern Europe.
Russian failure to apply Shock and Awe early in the war is no small strategic error to overcome, but not insurmountable.
Only the Western MSM thinks Russia will lose, and they have a terrible track record.
The MSM did predict Russia would (counter) invade Ukraine – but that took a fair amount of provocation over months such that the prediction may as well be the broken clock effect.
Russia is far from diplomatically isolated; The West no longer is The World.
BRICS stands by Russia as does the Russian Eurasian Economic Union and Shanghai Cooperation Organization. The Gulf Cooperation Council states also refuse to isolate Russia, and have refused to pump out extra oil.
Not even Israel will officially sanction Russia, just abide by Western sanctions.
As to your points – 1. The consequences of war are worse than the casus belli.
No, the consequences of war are obviously not worse than that casus belli, the consequences of war are the casus belli.
The casus belli was the threat of genocide, nuclear, and biological warfare against Russia by Western nations in the thrall of violent Russophobes grooming a non-aligned but Russophobic Ukraine.
There is no level of appeasement that would ever satisfy Western/Eastern European Russophobia.
2. Russia and especially Putin enjoys the support of most if not all the nations you mention as supposedly opposed to Russia and Putin.
Only the MSM thinks the West comes out the winner in scuttling Globalism.
What actually happened, is the West conceded that small-g real globalism – the world economy – could no longer be dominated by the Western powers.
3. The law of blowback applies to the hegemonic West and its long history of bloody abuses far more than to Russia.
Everyone who matters knows, the point of Biden’s Bearbait Wars is to trick everyone into abandoning Russia and Putin, because Russia and Putin guarantees non-Western self-sovereignty everywhere.
There’s great sympathy for Ukraine – but Ukrainians chose to be the Russophobic West’s weapon against Russia, to serve the Empire of Lies and offer up their own land and blood in sacrifice to the Empire of Lies.
👏👏👏
Yes, the combatants are required to make efforts to minimize civilian casualties. But when defenders choose to hunker down in cities, the attacker is not required to simply forego all attacks that might result in civilian casualties. Also, when defenders place military units in what would be protected facilities, like hospitals, those places lose their immunity, especially when the attacker identifies the place before the attack, as was the case with the maternity hospital. Also, it is only intentional or reckless attacks on hospitals and the like that are war crimes. Again, defenders can’t set up shop near a hospital, and then cry foul when the hospital is hit during an attack on the adjacent defenders. As for the theater, as with the hospital, a counterclaim that it was being used as a military installation. Nor is it even clear that it was the Russians that hit it, and not the Ukrainians.
And proportionality is a nuanced concept, calling for fine judgements and sober analysis, and it is difficult to prove that an attack on a militarized “civilian” target was disproportionate. (For example, the famous maternity hospital did not appear to be “packed” with civilians at all.) What we have here instead is everyone on “our” side, from the full of shit Ukrainian “sources” on the ground obviously biased beyond all redemption, to the POTUS, simply declaring, in their unilateral wisdom, that the Russians, from Putin on down, are war criminals.
Beyond all of this, you might want to consider the shrillness and insistence of the claims that these acts were “war crimes,” in comparison to past wars in which the USA and its partner in crime Israel have hit numerous hospitals, schools, apartment buildings, wedding parties, etc, etc., either under a claim of accident, or that the attacks were justified under the theories mentioned above. And how those attacks were characterized by the media, as opposed to the alleged attacks by the Russians. The US has hit hospitals going back at least as far as the air war against Serbia. I’m still waiting for the war crimes prosecutions for any of that! One would think, to listen to American media, Ukrainian officials, and the BBC, that no war in history, from the Bronze Age to 2021, ever resulted in civilian casualties!
The Ukrainian propaganda effort is simply breathtaking. From the very first days of the war, its military has used the cities as its strongpoints. It has yet to declare any city “open” (as was done numerous times, by both sides, during WWII), which would completely immunize the city from attack. Instead, it has not only fortified the cities, but also boasted about handing out weapons to the civilian population, thereby blurring the lines between civilians and military even further. Heads, the cities fight off attack, including by using these newly minted fighter. How brave they are! How stirring! Tails, the cities get blown up in the process. WAR CRIMES!!!! Heads, the Ukrainians win, tails the Russians lose!
Again, if the Russians had any intention of inflicting mass civilian casualties, as opposed to them being incidental (or “collateral” as the USA likes to call them), there would be tens and hundreds of thousands of such casualties (instead of the much smaller number being reported by the UN). And we wouldn’t be talking about this school, that hospital, and the other theater or apartment building, but whole neighborhoods and towns carpet bombed into oblivion starting on Day One. And, in the past, when defenders without blue eyes or blond hair, such as Palestinians, Lebanese Shiites, Iraqis, or Syrians, did what the Ukrainians were doing, they, the defenders, they were blamed for the civilian casualties, and accused of using the civilians as “human shields.”
And proportionality is a nuanced concept, calling for fine judgement and sober analysis by an impartial tribunal. Not conclusory assertions mouthed by on the ground partisans fighting a desperate propaganda war, and then rehearsed endlessly by the media and the US SOS and POTUS. The famous hospital, for example, was identified as militarized before the attack (as required by international law) and does not seem to have been “packed” with civilians at all.
I would also point out the USA, NATO and Israel, and their allies, clients and lackeys, routinely destroy hospitals, schools, wedding parties, goat herders, apartment buildings, etc, etc. ad infinitum, in their various wars, “no fly zone” enforcement proceedings, “humanitarian interventions,” and the like. Still waiting for any of those attacks to be declared “war crimes.” You say that such attacks are “almost always” war crimes, but the very people bleating on the most about them now have done the same or worse in the past, and, as far I know have never been held accountable in the least.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/may/21/richardnortontaylor.martinwalker
“The Nato bomb which devastated a Belgrade hospital, killing three patients and scattering glass over a woman undergoing a caesarean delivery, also scored a direct hit on the intensive care ward of the neurology department, according to the general manger of the hospital.
“In the first sustained air raid on the Serbian capital since the Chinese embassy was inadvertently targeted two weeks ago, four buildings in the sprawling Dragisa Misovic medical complex were demolished. Several nurses and pregnant women were injured and surviving patients were being evacuated to other sites.”
Accident?
“This was the fourth time the hospital had been hit…”
I agree. But I wonder how many of those “war crimes” are factual. If we had an actual free press, we might be able to form an opinion based on something other than propaganda. I have yet to see anything that even takes Russia’s grievances seriously although it’s hard to tell since they aren’t even mentioned.
“The first casualty or war is truth”
-Sen. Hiram Johnson 1918
Everything we read on all sides is propaganda in this war. So it is difficult to get the truth and impossible to get the entire truth. Almost 60 years ago I learned to read the MSM critically to learn some of the truth of what was happening in Vietnam. It is important to read multiple sources on all sides, to pay special attention to first hand reports by independent journalists and to give particular credibility to verified pictures and instances where a news source reports something that contradicts its editorial prejudice. I am certain that some of the atrocities attributed to the Russians are fake news. But there is no doubt that there have been hundreds of civilian casualties as a result of Russia’s invasion.
The existence of “hundreds of civilian casualties” does not in any way, shape or form indicate that war crimes were committed. Again, one would think that this is the first war in history in which civilians have died.
“Hundreds of civilian casualties” does not = war crime or even necessarily an “atrocity.” Again, the Ukrainians CHOSE to fight the war in the cities. That guarantees civilian deaths. They also chose to arm the civilians, which makes civilian deaths hard to even verify. Get a grip.
Except, the Russians didn’t do that.
They were closing on Mariupol Theatre 3 using ground forces, knowing full well Azov was using it as a command post packed with civilian hostages.
The theatre in question was only blown up after Azov relocated the command post. Either way, its not worth neutralizing by artillery, so the Russian story is beleivable.
At this time, Russia is backing down a bit, offering AFU and Kiev PMUs safe passage from besieged cities in exchange for no further Russian military and civilian losses.
I’d be interested in reading your sources for “scorched earth” practices, though that’s a separate topic from US taxpayer funded secret militias selectively training rabid elements in countries thousands of miles away when tens of millions of Americans live in poverty. That you reduce this effort to one individual, Mr. Putin, shows you’re not well informed. But if you want to talk about Mr. Putin, fine. He saved Russia and its people from death’s door when they were robbed blind and left for dead in 1990s by US elites, naturally including Soros. Soros of course has been in charge of US policy in Ukraine since 2012.
Good Morning WRU:
Have you called Putin today to send your love and appreciation?
I’m free, we can do a group call…
I’ve got a good name for our covert group: PAP (Putin Apologist Party). I’m thinking we should have membership dues and also a club patch with some nukes on it…
🙂 donna
Yes Donna, Vlad and I had our morning chat. We’re on first name basis, he calls me wars. I told him that wasn’t my real name but he insisted on calling me that anyway. Said something about being appropriate considering I’m from the US.
A shame you don’t get it. Really. I presume your favorite character in the movie Dr. Strangelove is Slim Pickens.
I believe that Donna is just kidding. Donna, my dues are on the way.
I thought you were being sarcastic.
DONUT DONNA , where you born a idiot or have you just practised a lot ?, really think before you answer.
To counter the NATO apologists?
Folks – do not feed the trolls. I’d include Knapp in that except he’s part of the site so we’re stuck with him.
😆
It’s the US that has a $1 trillion US taxpayer funded war budget, 800+ military bases, actually its budget is unlimited because US can print money. Russia has 9 military bases, not much money, and can’t print money.
The Kremlin starts very few wars, so has little to apologize for.
Even this Ukraine war is Biden’s Bearbait War.
Russia tried for eight years of escalation to negotiate an end to the Ukraine conflict.
Ukraine’s own actions alienated permanently the Russian-speaking peoples of Crimea, Donetsk and Lugansk.
The Russian intervention is immoral only in that wars of choice are immoral; materially, too many mistakes had been makde handing US/NATO provocations to prevent war.
The nuclear and biological threat building in Ukraine, should have been strongly exposed long ago. Even then, there are arguments for handling such a thing as quietly as possible as not to inflame tensions.
Armed drones may be Kiev’s most effective weapon in the war.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/are-ukraines-cheap-slow-drones-successful-russian-targets-rcna19982
Russia was initially unprepared to refight the Syrian war in Ukraine, including that element, but have since introduced their own drones.
They’re so effective that Russia is shooting them down daily. LOL Going to run out of them eventually despite alleged new shipments from Turkey.
Amazing how Erdogan always comes up the middle so smoothly.
He’s refusing to sanction Russia as well.
So the US / UK plan was to train up Ukrainians forces because Russia was going to be backed into a corner and would invaded Ukraine ? , wel it looks like the plan worked ,and the Ukrainian people will pay the price .
It’s not that they cornered Russia , it was they had Russia positioned whereby any War effort to invaded Ukraine would would be too costly and deadly for Russia or just stupid.
But at some point – at least from a military perspective – one has to make a move before the opposition is better armed and better trained.
1. Russia’s invastion of Georgia in 2008.
2. Russia’s annexation of the Ukrainian territory of Crimea.
“Still, if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.”
Winston Churchill,
But think of it like a chess board, at some point no matter what move you make it’s check mate. Putin and Russia’s best move was not to play.
Russia has more Grandmasters than the rest of the world put together.
Ukraine is toast, USA is about ot lose it status as the Reserve currency and in a couple of weeks, the EU will tell US to push off.
I know, yadda yadda but we will see.
How could this be!!??? Shocked! Shocked I am!!
“Despite the concerns, the secret program continued for years until February. The former officials said that when a Russian invasion became “increasingly acute,” the Biden administration pulled all CIA personnel out of Ukraine, including the paramilitaries. One former official said the Biden administration was “terrified of even clandestine folks being on the frontline.””___ Run…Rabbit Run…!
More like, trappers exiting the trap they built.
“The former officials who spoke with Yahoo News suggested the resistance was in part thanks to the CIA training program.”___ Bunch of crap…! Yes, we all saw what CIA training did to Afghan army in order to fight Talibans…!
Can there be any doubt now, who was the aggressor? …the “illegal aggressor”, as their propaganda would have it?
There is growing evidence that NATO Gnomes have been working to make the situation of the Russo Ukrainians in the East so unbearable that Russia invades. I guess that, just how pervasive this mindset has been is difficult to gague. One thing we can be quite confident about is that the Hillary Clinton Clique of muderous madams, costarring Victoria Nuland and reportedly Valley Jarret… The “We Came, We Saw. He died crew are complicit. I really think that the coven cackling that punchuated her otherwourldly bloodust should be included into any overall assesment of her mental health, and of those who supported and conspired to destroy Libya and the lives of the Libyan People. That woman is a war criminal and by extension Obama too. Our Nobel prize winner. Welcome to Wonderland!
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2022/03/no_author/lord-posonby/
Posonby’s Ten Rules of Propaganda.
The Americans have it almost perfected.
How did this program help prepare Russia for this Invasion again? The Russian army is being routed. In some places retreating. It was Russia’s choice.
“The Russian army is being routed”
I see you read our MSM. Why on earth was Zelensky invoking MLK and begging our congress for help?
You must be a believer of those who brought us such famous quotes as.
“Weapons of mass destruction” and “They hate us for our freedoms”.
🤣🤣🤣
The Russian military is performing to spec and winning the hard way as usual.
Ironically, Putin probably decided to invade and start a war in Ukraine because he follows articles on antiwar.com.
The Russians are a sophisticated society and why wouldn’t they read all the English language press as this”…essentially meant a proxy war on Russian’s border”,”…which had begun under the Obama administration…”?
Does anyone read Antiwar.com? What exactly are the stats for visits? That might be interesting reading here.
https://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/antiwar.com
There are web marketing sites that track that sort of thing.
Alexa used to be good, but has since been bought out by Amazon.
It makes sense now, the reason they are persecuting Julian Assange is they are letting any would be whistle blowers know what will happen to them if they don’t play ball with the propaganda machine. How weak we are, we set the rules, then break the rules and cheat and exploit and intimidate when someone beats us at our own game. If someone is telling the truth, silence them, take them off the air, throw them in jail, we must win at any cost, to hell with truth, to hell with fair play, stack the deck, start a war, anything as long as we come out on top, that’s who we are and it really is sickening.
…essentially meant a proxy war on Russian’s border”,”…which had begun under the Obama administration…”<----- Meat & potatoes.
“The former officials said at first the CIA was surprised at the
capability of Russia and the separatists compared with US adversaries in
the Middle East.”
LOL No duh! This is an example of how the US military has been so busy fighting weak Third World countries that they no longer have the capability to fight a peer military power.
The other article here today noted that the CIA is 0 for 3 in organizing insurgencies. This one is already falling apart according to various viral videos and Twitter reports from some of the people involved.
This is going to be a massive debacle for the CIA. Scott Ritter says the CIA is utterly worthless at organizing insurgencies. We’re going to see that in real time now.
So the CIA was on the border, that is on the front lines of the Donbas since 2014.
So how was this operation ramped up so quickly after the overthrow of the Ukrainian government.
Most importantly; this puts American CIA assets in the war zone where 13,000 ethnic Russians were murdered since 2014.
Not good enough for the bastion of democracy, America and another reason diplomacy has failed in Ukraine!
Let’s Go Brandon!
It wasn’t “ramped up quickly.” Soros spent two years, 2012-2014, planning the US violent overthrow of Ukraine. From 2014 on he’s been in charge of US policy in Ukraine. He was adamant in not allowing federalization of Donbass. As his protege Poroshenko said, “their children will grow up in basements.” Trump and Jared adore Soros (Jared accepted a $250 million credit line from Soros in 2015), so of course Trump sent two shipments of lethal weapons to Ukraine–which even Obama wouldn’t do. If Soros/US is involved in your country, you’ll have worse misery than you could ever imagine–and US taxpayers will pay for it.
Yep, Let’s Go Brandon!
You make some interesting points.
They become instantly less compelling when constantly followed by a slogan that had a shelf life of about half an hour before becoming boring and dumb.
where do you get the 13k number? I don’t doubt it but I need a source, thanks.
Most news and documentaries put the number at between 13,000 and 15,000 deaths. Multiple news stories.
The year is 2025.
Europe is a waste land and millions of people are dead.
NATO no longer exists.
US has less than half of the population of 2022 and major cities are gone.
The Western part of Russia is gone but everything East of Ural mountains is still standing except for Vladivostok.
.